Is it the amps, the speakers...or the amps-speakers synergy?

spiritofmusic · Sep 7, 2015

Oh, Ron, I absolutely am not worrying and not driving myself crazy. But I do like to wonder (wander?). In the last 10 days I've hit upon an extra level of performance synergy that I to be honest really didn't think was possible even 6 months ago.
Various listeners including y'self have commented favouably on the sound, incl a couple of guys who weren't fans of the Zus prior to current changes and have been more than pleasantly suprised.
When you next visit, things have gone on a step or 3 since you last heard them, and I think you'll be positive.
This thread is very much me thinking aloud, and to some extent inspired by one member here who really feels my presentation is the antithesis of a good sound and has urged me very strongly to consider dsp, find better spkrs, and choose the amps to match. He's a fan esp of the Trios and Giyas.

bonzo75 · Sep 7, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Oh, Ron, I absolutely am not worrying and not driving myself crazy. But I do like to wonder (wander?). In the last 10 days I've hit upon an extra level of performance synergy that I to be honest really didn't think was possible even 6 months ago.
Various listeners including y'self have commented favouably on the sound, incl a couple of guys who weren't fans of the Zus prior to current changes and have been more than pleasantly suprised.
When you next visit, things have gone on a step or 3 since you last heard them, and I think you'll be positive.
This thread is very much me thinking aloud, and to some extent inspired by one member here who really feels my presentation is the antithesis of a good sound and has urged me very strongly to consider dsp, find better spkrs, and choose the amps to match. He's a fan esp of the Trios and Giyas.

Sorry, but since without mentioning me you have indicated who it is, that one member knows five or six others. Anyway, 6 months ago you had the best possible sound too. As far as I am concerned things haven't changed. Tbh I am not interested in saying this on a forum but you like to provoke responses as part of the game.

One correction, I heard Giyas only at a show, was impressed, to like them as much as some horns or Analysis will need a closer look in, and don't think they will come up to horns. That said, interested in replicating Marty's DSP method as an alternative to horns, for which Giyas might be a good candidate.

spiritofmusic · Sep 7, 2015

Onward and upward/sideways/downwards/and all the way 'round again - merry go 'rounds/Mobius Loops/wild goosechases/blind alleys/games of Snakes And Ladders/poker matches - take your pick, this hobby is full of them.
A spread of views is a good way to go, to get a consensus on what others are thinking, and to have several visits where guys really liked my sound, and two felt it had taken a big leap fwd is nice to know, esp a guy w/a sound I really like, Blue58 w/his AG Duos, and his comment I was bridging the gap to his sound in many ways was great to hear. I now am confident that I'm very much on a good path for me, and constructive criticism is gratefully accepted, to give me food for thought.
But anyhow Bonzo, so be it that you reveal y'self as the inspiration as the instigator of this thread.
I'm so pleased it has generated so much interesting discourse w/out lapsing into acrimony.
I guess there's always time for this to happen however.

JackD201 · Sep 7, 2015

Room > Speaker for that room > Amp for that speaker FOR THAT ROOM. Not shouting just for emphasis. If my room were a third the size, I could get away with half the headroom requirements.

ddk · Sep 7, 2015

JackD201 said:
Room > Speaker for that room > Amp for that speaker FOR THAT ROOM. Not shouting just for emphasis. If my room were a third the size, I could get away with half the headroom requirements.

Where ever you start Jack the three are interdependent and generally compromises have to be made, it all depends on one's priorities.

david

KeithR · Sep 7, 2015

bonzo75 said:
Sorry, but since without mentioning me you have indicated who it is, that one member knows five or six others. Anyway, 6 months ago you had the best possible sound too. As far as I am concerned things haven't changed. Tbh I am not interested in saying this on a forum but you like to provoke responses as part of the game.

One correction, I heard Giyas only at a show, was impressed, to like them as much as some horns or Analysis will need a closer look in, and don't think they will come up to horns. That said, interested in replicating Marty's DSP method as an alternative to horns, for which Giyas might be a good candidate.

Speakers are personal. Many people dislike horns which you enjoy. Magico owners wont like Western Electrics. What does this mean? Not much.

Many people have purchased Zus after hearing them at mine or a friends house. What does that mean? Not much.

Spirit- enjoy the search, but others opinions on speakers is pretty useless. You have to use your own ears. Also remember you are comparing 10k speakers to 60k varieties.

amirm · Sep 7, 2015

Mod: Thread clean up. No politics please and let's stay friendly.

spiritofmusic · Sep 7, 2015

Amirm, affirmative.

spiritofmusic · Sep 7, 2015

KeithR said:
Speakers are personal. Many people dislike horns which you enjoy. Magico owners wont like Western Electrics. What does this mean? Not much.

Many people have purchased Zus after hearing them at mine or a friends house. What does that mean? Not much.

Spirit- enjoy the search, but others opinions on speakers is pretty useless. You have to use your own ears. Also remember you are comparing 10k speakers to 60k varieties.

KeithR, 110% agree. I'm very much thinking aloud on this thread.
In effect I'm truly elated w/where I've got w/my Nats SETs/Zu high eff spkrs synergy.
I can't help being curious w/what horns like the Trios could bring to the party, and the Giyas G1's/2's remain maybe the only box/dynamic drivers spkrs that are piqueing my interest.
And the Zu Experiences flagship will home into view soon.
I'm learning to love my choices, not have to justify them to anyone else except myself.
When I finally shed the need to justify my choices to others, my need to consider options will change to simple curiosity.
Based on my newly aquired epiphany, this is happening now.

defride · Sep 12, 2015

Hi Marc, hope you're well.

Been out of the loop for a while, see you're still searching! Nothing wrong with that, can be great fun.

FWIW my opinion follows one or two others who have contributed.

1/ Speaker must work in the chosen room. Seems obvious but worth reiterating, no point in shoe horning a speaker into a room where it has no chance of working.

2/ Once that's decided upon it's time to find the amp that works in a synergy that suites your taste in presentation with that speaker in the space afforded.

For me this is the critical, I've heard plenty of systems with a good room/speaker/amp synergy sound wonderful with a pretty modest source. Get one of the former wrong and it usually sounds for want of a better word - wrong

Cheers Dan

Atmasphere · Sep 14, 2015

RonR said:
I think this is a false dichotomy. I think one selects the speakers one wants (going for "the best sounding speakers") and then one selects an amplifier which, to one's ears, is synergistic with the speakers ("amplifiers/speakers synergy/pairing as a whole") and which, together with the speakers, creates the sound one wants.

Purite Audio said:
That is purely a commercial decision, I would always recommend finding a pair of speakers you really like,then select suitable amplification, and then work at the room to achieve the best ppossible sound quality.
Keith.

The problem here is that in knowing what speakers you like, well whatever that speaker is, its not going to make any sound at all unless its hooked up to something. So if you like it, its because you like the way the amplifier in use is working with that speaker.

Now it happens that audiophiles fall into 'about' 2 categories when it comes to electronics. Either they like solid state or they don't/either they like tubes or they don't. Now if you want a speaker that is only easily driven by transistors, but it happens that you prefer tubes, you will never be happy as you won't be able to get the speaker to play nice with your tube amps. It works the other way around too, for example its very hard to get transistors to play nice with ESLs (the tendency is to be too bright).

IOW its really hard to go for the speaker first without consideration of the amp at the same time. If you go for the speaker first its close to a guarantee that some decent funds will find themselves spinning down the loo.

@Microstrip: do you have the new back panel in your Sound Labs, the one that was introduced about 2 years ago? It went a long way towards making the speaker easier to drive (a lot less power being absorbed by the crossover) and also better sounding (because the amp does not have to work as hard and a loafing amp is a happy amp).

Audiophile Bill · Sep 14, 2015

Atmasphere said:
The problem here is that in knowing what speakers you like, well whatever that speaker is, its not going to make any sound at all unless its hooked up to something. So if you like it, its because you like the way the amplifier in use is working with that speaker.

Now it happens that audiophiles fall into 'about' 2 categories when it comes to electronics. Either they like solid state or they don't/either they like tubes or they don't. Now if you want a speaker that is only easily driven by transistors, but it happens that you prefer tubes, you will never be happy as you won't be able to get the speaker to play nice with your tube amps. It works the other way around too, for example its very hard to get transistors to play nice with ESLs (the tendency is to be too bright).

IOW its really hard to go for the speaker first without consideration of the amp at the same time. If you go for the speaker first its close to a guarantee that some decent funds will find themselves spinning down the loo.

@Microstrip: do you have the new back panel in your Sound Labs, the one that was introduced about 2 years ago? It went a long way towards making the speaker easier to drive (a lot less power being absorbed by the crossover) and also better sounding (because the amp does not have to work as hard and a loafing amp is a happy amp).

Absolutely agree with you, Mr Atmasphere. Sound advice!

bonzo75 · Sep 14, 2015

Atmasphere said:
The problem here is that in knowing what speakers you like, well whatever that speaker is, its not going to make any sound at all unless its hooked up to something. So if you like it, its because you like the way the amplifier in use is working with that speaker.

Now it happens that audiophiles fall into 'about' 2 categories when it comes to electronics. Either they like solid state or they don't/either they like tubes or they don't. Now if you want a speaker that is only easily driven by transistors, but it happens that you prefer tubes, you will never be happy as you won't be able to get the speaker to play nice with your tube amps. It works the other way around too, for example its very hard to get transistors to play nice with ESLs (the tendency is to be too bright).

IOW its really hard to go for the speaker first without consideration of the amp at the same time. If you go for the speaker first its close to a guarantee that some decent funds will find themselves spinning down the loo.

@Microstrip: do you have the new back panel in your Sound Labs, the one that was introduced about 2 years ago? It went a long way towards making the speaker easier to drive (a lot less power being absorbed by the crossover) and also better sounding (because the amp does not have to work as hard and a loafing amp is a happy amp).

Not sure about that ESL example. If someone wants to run an ESL with a transistor, he probably heard it before, liked it, and so bought the ESL, then the transistor. The brightness shouldn't bother him. If the brightness did bother them, either they would turn down the ESL, or try it with a tube amp. Either way, if they liked the speaker, with whatever amp, they would buy the speaker first, then try on a few amps to see if it sounded bright or didn't.

Atmasphere · Sep 14, 2015

I've yet to hear a set of ESLs driven by transistors that didn't sound bright. Maybe extreme coincidence though. But when you look at the impedance curves and the voltage response of the amp its easy to see why. So maybe not coincidence...

bonzo75 · Sep 14, 2015

Atmasphere said:
I've yet to hear a set of ESLs driven by transistors that didn't sound bright. Maybe extreme coincidence though. But when you look at the impedance curves and the voltage response of the amp its easy to see why. So maybe not coincidence...

Sure, but the guys who like and own it don't think so. After hanging out on the Martin Logan forum, I don't know of a single guy who said I have XYZ amp, so I need to get a Logan. All of them were enamored by the transparency of the stats, got in, and started their frustrating journey to find the right amp - some ended with tubes, some transistors. I was tubes.

Atmasphere · Sep 14, 2015

^^ Yes- that is an excellent description of what I've been talking about.

JackD201 · Sep 14, 2015

ddk said:
Where ever you start Jack the three are interdependent and generally compromises have to be made, it all depends on one's priorities.

david

That applies to everything. My point is that the smaller the room, generally the more boundary reinforcement one gets so one can get away with less power. Move the system to a larger room where listening distance also increases and it would not be surprising to find that one is using up more power to get the same SPL at the listening position and much more power at peaks.

microstrip · Sep 14, 2015

Atmasphere said:
(...) @Microstrip: do you have the new back panel in your Sound Labs, the one that was introduced about 2 years ago? It went a long way towards making the speaker easier to drive (a lot less power being absorbed by the crossover) and also better sounding (because the amp does not have to work as hard and a loafing amp is a happy amp).

Yes, I have the new Toroid II medium/treble transformer. I have upgraded my back plates, replacing the coils, resistors and capacitors with same value high quality Mundorf parts.

the sound of Tao · Sep 14, 2015

This all probably varies with type of speaker. Shape and scale of room along with type of music you want to play are probably often the first determinants on speaker choice in general tho amp matching is then still a critical factor in terms of the speaker being able to do better within that space.

For instance if you've got a small room and want to play a broad type of music then from my perspective at least you'll never hear the best from horn speakers no matter what electronics you put them with. Buying a horn for a small room is more like buying a race horse and then keeping it locked in a box.

Similarly if you have a shallow room then going for a dipole panel only gives you a frustratingly vague glimpse of what panels are actually capable of. But once the right depth into the room then panels generally pay back even more with the best possible amp support.

But in different circumstances (perhaps with say a speaker that presents wildly really reactive loads to the amp) then amp speaker matching could well be the more critical make or break factor.

Probably (as in most things) context is the ultimate key to any choice.

spiritofmusic · Sep 14, 2015

Atmasphere said:
The problem here is that in knowing what speakers you like, well whatever that speaker is, its not going to make any sound at all unless its hooked up to something. So if you like it, its because you like the way the amplifier in use is working with that speaker.

Now it happens that audiophiles fall into 'about' 2 categories when it comes to electronics. Either they like solid state or they don't/either they like tubes or they don't. Now if you want a speaker that is only easily driven by transistors, but it happens that you prefer tubes, you will never be happy as you won't be able to get the speaker to play nice with your tube amps. It works the other way around too, for example its very hard to get transistors to play nice with ESLs (the tendency is to be too bright).

IOW its really hard to go for the speaker first without consideration of the amp at the same time. If you go for the speaker first its close to a guarantee that some decent funds will find themselves spinning down the loo.

@Microstrip: do you have the new back panel in your Sound Labs, the one that was introduced about 2 years ago? It went a long way towards making the speaker easier to drive (a lot less power being absorbed by the crossover) and also better sounding (because the amp does not have to work as hard and a loafing amp is a happy amp).

Atmasphere, you've pretty much summed up how I feel. I guess I have TWO topologies (SETs/high eff & min x'over spkrs), not just one that I'm in love with, and both work so well together.
And I'm pretty much settling to stick w/the choice I've settled on for over a fair period of time now.

Is it the amps, the speakers...or the amps-speakers synergy?

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