WBF: How Much Science Talk Do You Want to See?

WBF: How Much Science Talk Do You Want to See?

  • I hate all the talk about science.The only thing that matters are my ears.

    Votes: 5 4.5%
  • I am OK with other people discussing audio science, research, etc.But I ignore it.

    Votes: 13 11.8%
  • I like participating in discussion of audio science even though I mostly rely on my ears.

    Votes: 45 40.9%
  • While I also listen, understanding of audio science is critical to me.

    Votes: 40 36.4%
  • I am all about audio science. I listen but the science rules.

    Votes: 7 6.4%

  • Total voters
    110

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
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Then why 99.99% of all audio ICs sold are made of copper? ...If silver is a better audio conductor, why more manufacturers aren't getting on it?
And how do we know that good silver (pure) is a better conductor; by listening, or by measuring (scientific numbers),...both?

Why do you assume this is the case? Do you have specs to back up that statement? ;) Sorry, I couldn't resist... But seriously, if you look at cost-no-object cables you'll find a lot of silver out there. Silver is much less common vs copper because of the cost and the fact lower purity silver is more a tradeoff vs a clear improvement, you need high purity (5N+) silver to obtain clear benefits over copper. UPOCC silver is 6N+ purity and because the manufacturing process is far slower and more costly vs drawn wire it is VERY expensive wire!

As I said, I believe the evidence is going to lie with as-yet unknown or barely known quantum mechanic principles such as quantum tunneling vs clearly known conventional electrical phenomenon so listening is going to have to suffice for evidence, other than the fact silver is a better conductor vs copper by a few percent. Also, UPOCC copper has measurably better conductivity vs regular drawn copper, see the link in my previous post.

Have you ever tried out a UPOCC silver based IC cable? If not it's possible I'd send you one... :) I currently have some demo cables in Canada that could go to you before I get them back. Actually, I use an alloy that starts with ultra pure silver and adds some pure gold, which is then cast into wire using the OCC process and covered with teflon. The wire is my own specific formula and is even better than UPOCC silver, but it shares it's overall sonic characteristics.



Don, I think it depends on the musician too... I used to play the bass guitar and never thought I focused on the bassline more than other parts unless I was in the recording, but it varies. I'm not sure some lead guitar players actually hear anything else... ;)
 

esldude

New Member
So many of these posts sound like the audiophile version of God of the Gaps.

We know we can hear it, it is so, trust us. Sorry we don't have good data, but we hear it. The explanation is found somewhere where we don't know something yet. Hearing is enough until we uncover what is really happening. Somehow you can't measure it, but it is there trust us we hear it.

Yet as Amir keeps pointing out, audio science IS based upon hearing. But the hearing is used with a particular methodology for consistent results.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,142
495
So many of these posts sound like the audiophile version of God of the Gaps.

We know we can hear it, it is so, trust us. Sorry we don't have good data, but we hear it. The explanation is found somewhere where we don't know something yet. Hearing is enough until we uncover what is really happening. Somehow you can't measure it, but it is there trust us we hear it.

Yet as Amir keeps pointing out, audio science IS based upon hearing. But the hearing is used with a particular methodology for consistent results.

Brilliant observation, thank you. ;)
 

stehno

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2014
1,595
461
405
Salem, OR
Sadly I feel the above post accurately reflects the majority of modern consumers, they no longer care how anything works, or indeed if one component is more suitable for their application.
It is just part of the general dumbing down of our culture.
A little technical understanding will enable you to enjoy a better sound , without the constant, aimless swapping of components.
Keith.

Wow. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

Try to remember, PA, that the name of the game in any performance-oriented industry is supposed to be performance. Not understanding. Even though understanding can beget performance. Ever hear of a Formula 1 or Top Fuel dragster driver who races and wins and may not understand the first thing about an internal combustion engine? Maybe one of the fundamentals is that we need to be cognizant of is that most of us in these forums are drivers only.

As much as I'd like to refute your comment, "a little technical understanding will enable you to enjoy a better sound", I have to somewhat agree with your poorly worded statement here. I do possess technical understanding about areas that should be foreign to you and it is those areas upon which I built my playback system.

But where we differ is that I limit my understanding to those areas that really matter from a performance perspective. I have no desire to mfg'er an amp or CDP, therefore, I waste little precious time attempting to understanding all the intricacies of those products because frankly the gains in those parts of vineyard are most always quite limited. In my quest for performance, such knowledge or understanding that provide only limited performance benefits matter very little to me. I know nothing about a component's internals so I don't modify internals except for cryo'ed IEC inlets and fuses. Could I squeeze out a tad better performance having others modify my components? Perhaps. But I've gone the mod route once before and got burned by the modder who turned out to be a criminal so I've sworn off that route.

But externally, you probably should not find a more modified system than mine. The mods start at the AC service panel with 4 dedicated circuits on the same phase/leg to 4 cryo'ed Romex lines to the listening room to 4 cryo'ed outlets. That's just for starters and that's only to get electricity into the room. How about you?

I'll use properly cryo'ing product as my simple example for understanding. Is cryo'ing the end-all of performance gains? No but it plays a vital part in the audio performance vineyard and is part of a package of what I call proper electrical mgmt which in turn is a small but still quite significant part of what I consider building on the right foundation. And though all the cryo'ed parts combined will easily generate greater performance gains than any sonic differences I've yet experienced between Redbook and hi-rez recordings, cryo'ing still is only a very small boost compared to other parts of the vineyard. Now do I really understand what cryo'ing does to change a metal's properties that leads to sonic improvements? Somewhat but ultimately no. I leave that to the experts like Jenna Labs who co-hosted an audio event I held last year that focused on cryo'ing. FWIW, Jenna Labs founders did cryo'ing work for NASA some 40 years ago and have been cryo'ing audio products for over 30 years.

Do I understand that properly cryo'ing a product will lead to improved sonics? Considering I've been having product cryo'ed via the inferior vapor method and superior full-immersion method since 2005 and every time received clearly audible improvements, I'd say yes. Do I really really need to hit the pause button in my life to learn everything there is to know about the cryogenic process and what it does at a molecular level to alter metals and improve sonics? Apparently, according to you and some others I must, if I really want to appreciate cryo'ing's sonic benefits. And if I choose not to go down that rabbit hole, I risk becoming a victim of a dumbed down culture? That's just silly speak. However, in another context, I'm very much on board with your dumbed down comment.

You wanna' talk appreciation? I've mfg'ered audio product before. Understanding what's involved between a product's design, mfg'ering, and getting it to market has really made me appreciate even something as simple as a $1.29 light switch plate. But even with that understanding, my lights are no more brilliant and frankly I'm no more or less appreciative of electrical lighting.

As for your comment of constant aimless swapping of components, I'm not sure how you got that one. But since your entire response seemed out-of-context, I've gone upwards of 5 years without a single product swap. Last year I did swap out all components. CDP, amp, and speakers. Prior to that swap, I owned my Esoteric CDP since 2006, my BMC int. amp since 2011, and Legacy speakers since 2007. Perhaps you're thinking of somebody else?
 
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microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
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Yes of course Mercedes keep winning through sheer blind luck, they luckily just stumbled across a winning car, no design or enginerring or measurement involved!
Keith.

Surely, but to overcome it they select their racing drivers according to very strict specifications and scientific measurements. The competition is still using primitive ways of selecting them, but Mercedes measures them in a secret underground 30 feet long track, taking 72 important measurements. :)

But there is still hope for scientific car development - some information leaked recently that they are developing a way to carry car performance blind tests.

Disclaimer: I own a Mercedes and I looked at two specifications when buying it - car length and price.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,455
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Yes of course Mercedes keep winning through sheer blind luck, they luckily just stumbled across a winning car, no design or enginerring or measurement involved!
Keith.

Mercedes believes their drivers ;) ... No measurements ... NOT!

I also own a Mercedes (G-Wagon) and looked at the numbers ... The 0-60 is great for such a big car but the Gas mileage figures are inflated ... The darn thing is a Diesel-Guzzler,more like 12 mpg. Performance is surprising as long you don't get too fast in a corner with a cornering ability of 0.56 (!!:()and the Cx of a box truck... or expect to go very fast when the steering becomes vague and imprecise .. anything over 90 MPH, it can do much more but ... Caveats Emptor :)
We'll run around the bush. We will fish for explanations to rationalize our choices and we will dismiss Science in the process while using Science in all aspects of our lives none more repeatedly than downloading a file though a run of the mill a dime a dozen USB cable and always getting the same file with no errors, yet. The need to validate our choices is so great that it turns grown-men into playground kids hissing, huffing, puffing and throwing invective when their choices is threatened by Science ...
The answer is IMHO simple: We do not make all rational decisions. Emotions plays a superior role in our choices. I will take my own example of my G-Wagon. I just love the beast. In all rationality a Toyota Land Cruiser (The V-8 Diesel) is by all measures a better SUV and it is much more reliable to boot. Well ... The Land Cruiser is reliable , period. The G-Wagon? ... I love it :D
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Northstar... You are getting dangerously close to be labelled "objectivist" :D

...And the main reason why I did not ban myself yet. ;-) ...Mister Frantz.
Even our emotional level can be scientifically measured. ...It's all part of a group of analysed statistics. ...And different parts of the world, different cultures, different sciences, ...have their own set of stats. ...Ways of measuring. ...And from one day to the next it can vary as much as 50%. ...Time is not a reliable equation; it moves constantly, with dramatic changes sometimes. ...Then science is becoming subjective, in addition to its vague objectivity. ...Because of time travel and physical space's transformation/change.

______

 
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CGabriel

Industry Expert
Oct 31, 2013
618
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www.shunyata.com
NorthStar you are quite the philosopher :)

Let me say this about science. It is a belief system that evolves by increments and small advancements in understanding punctuated by earthquake-like uprootings of the established status-quo. Science is a variable when you look at it through the timeline of history. Only the most arrogant among us could presuppose that we have reached the pinnacle of knowledge in understanding this vast inner and outer universe.

In the present time, quantum physics is the most accurate model we have for how the universe functions. There is nothing that sounds more like pure mysticism than quantum mechanical concepts. Just consider that audio reproduction is fundamentally electrical in nature and is governed by the behavior of quantum particles (electrons and photons).
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
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Utah
NorthStar you are quite the philosopher :)

Let me say this about science. It is a belief system that evolves by increments and small advancements in understanding punctuated by earthquake-like uprootings of the established status-quo. Science is a variable when you look at it through the timeline of history. Only the most arrogant among us could presuppose that we have reached the pinnacle of knowledge in understanding this vast inner and outer universe.

In the present time, quantum physics is the most accurate model we have for how the universe functions. There is nothing that sounds more like pure mysticism than quantum mechanical concepts. Just consider that audio reproduction is fundamentally electrical in nature and is governed by the behavior of quantum particles (electrons and photons).

Yet without creativity and subjective ideas electrons and photons remain just that! :)

david
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
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Utah
I've found that cables that adhere to the design principles of high frequency cabling work best for audio frequencies as well. Being able to cleanly pass a HF signal translates to being able to very precisely transmit a lower frequency (audio) signal. In high frequency applications the surface of the wire is often polished silver, and in any application a wire with a tarnished conductor surface isn't going to work as well as one that has proper insulation to prevent this from happening.

Really?

UPOCC copper is good but UPOCC silver is by far the best wire in existence, it'll give you way better resolution and does not add warmth like copper does. That is, IF you are looking for the most accurate cable possible, many people have other priorities.

Is this your subjective or objective opinion? Please tell what makes silver so accurate, and how have you measured and defined this accuracy? Silver is a material and has a very strong sonic signature, where's the accuracy? How is copper less accurate or warm as a material? Plenty of cold, harsh sounding copper cable out there to probe you wrong. I'm one of those people who avoids any wire or equipment using silver as a base, only because I generally find the sound of silver very colored and inaccurate!

There is a big difference between audio and RF wrt silver plated wire. I do not like plated wire for audio use because the higher frequencies are going to prefer the surface while lower frequencies will use the entire wire which gives you a different sound depending on frequency and the gauge of the wire in question. It can work ok for budget applications but for high end cables I feel UPOCC silver is a far superior alternative, although much more expensive.

I beg to differ along with some very high end audio manufacturers, but we won't argue with your feelings! ;)

david
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
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Then why 99.99% of all audio ICs sold are made of copper? ...If silver is a better audio conductor, why more manufacturers aren't getting on it?
And how do we know that good silver (pure) is a better conductor; by listening, or by measuring (scientific numbers),...both?

Silver wire was created for the aircraft industry as a weight saving measure, never intended for high end sound, IMO silver wire has a lot of undesirable sonic qualities! I wonder when Aluminum wires will find their way into high end.

david
 

stehno

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2014
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Salem, OR
Yes of course Mercedes keep winning through sheer blind luck, they luckily just stumbled across a winning car, no design or enginerring or measurement involved!
Keith.

Oh, I get it. You manufacture your own equipment. No wonder science pertaining to things audio is so important to you. My bad.

Ok, so you're the mfg'er, chief mechanic, crew, analyzer, and driver of your own racing team. But for those who have less exciting lives than yours, they don't have the luxury of a wealth of knowledge derived from formal education and the 20 or 30 years of scientific hands-on experience of one like yourself who obviously is aware that knowledge alone without seasoned experience can be a dangerous thing.

Amir should have better qualified his survey question perhaps something like, "For those who do not mfg'er their own components (professionally or DIY), how much science do you want to see?"

This way we could get a better perspective of the survey findings.

BTW, you must be pretty excited about the new MQA format invented by Meridian's Bob Stuart. I understand he's applied his vast scientific research and understanding of neuroscience and incorporated what I assume amounts to his objective version of DSP for MQA.

But I am confused about the neuroscience aspect. With a science-minded guy like Stuart claiming with MQA we'll finally hear EXACTLY what the engineers heard in the studio (I'm sure he has the scientific proof to back that up), I can't help but wonder if Stuart's claim here is before or after he applies his neuroscience DSP? Perhaps I'd better leave that to the scientific types. They'll figure it all out as they always do.
 
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NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
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? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

_________


_________

? www.singularity.com/themovie/#.VZ4T_PlViko

? www.singularity.com

<<?>> Quantum physics gave us the nature of two particle's entanglement...tele-transportation...particles of the entire human body...cloning oneself into another dimension where time doesn't exist but only its measured capsule/space. ...The quantum super computer, which will be able to measure everything that we cannot, including the immeasurable...the sounds of music on various emotional levels.

...Only a theory. ...And number 9
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
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Silver wire was created for the aircraft industry as a weight saving measure, never intended for high end sound, IMO silver wire has a lot of undesirable sonic qualities! I wonder when Aluminum wires will find their way into high end.

david

Fortunately all my feelings about wire sound are "IMHO", no one one can feel offended with them. Speciality wires were developed by industry long ago before the high-end, it is meaningless for whom they were developed. Every manufacturer has some interesting facts and findings to tell us, as well as his preferences. For facts on wire physical properties of silver plated wires and oxidation we can always access the ESA report Corrosion of Silver-Plated Copper Conductors ESA Journal 1984, Vol. 8 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDEQFjAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fescies.org%2Fdownload%2FwebDocumentFile%3Fid%3D62170&ei=EE2eVefCDouqU83YrqAL&usg=AFQjCNH9sygK-OpNzqJ0Dc0ACoq-mrsdxg&bvm=bv.96952980,d.d24 and the references of this paper.

It will give an idea of the problems intrinsic to silver plated wires. For me it seems that the main advantage of pure silver is just avoiding the inter layer problems!

I had experience with several brands of silver and silver plated wire (Kimber KS3038/1136, Van den hul SCS2 , Mandrake , Audioquest Sterling, Crystal Dreamline and can not associate the metal to a definite type of sound. Curiously in a manufacturer range, if they have copper and silver wires, the silver wire ones seemed to me to sound better - but they were in general much more expensive. I can not however be sure if it was because of the silver or the general better quality of the cable.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
Was looking in a Wilson loudspeaker manual to find an answer for another member and ran into this after a measurement of impedance was shown:



This is precisely the usefulness of audio science that I mentioned earlier in the thread. That we can and do know how to tie the world of objectivity and subjectivity together. Maybe not all the time but often.

Are members who don't want to hear about audio science are likewise offended by this section in Wilson's manual???
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,043
995
Utah
Was looking in a Wilson loudspeaker manual to find an answer for another member and ran into this after a measurement of impedance was shown:



This is precisely the usefulness of audio science that I mentioned earlier in the thread. That we can and do know how to tie the world of objectivity and subjectivity together. Maybe not all the time but often.

Are members who don't want to hear about audio science are likewise offended by this section in Wilson's manual???

I think its a question of semantics Amir, what you call science here are just simple specs. I doubt that anyone's offended here about any of this.

david
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
I think its a question of semantics Amir, what you call science here are just simple specs. I doubt that anyone's offended here about any of this.

david
That is not a spec. Spec would be "Speaker Impedance: 4 ohms." What is there instead is a complex graph of loudspeaker impedance, followed by an analysis of it is impact on amplifier performance and why. It directly advises on the impact at 2 Khz for example if inappropriate tube amplifier is used.

If people are not offended, then I wonder how much they pay attention to such a measurement in reviews and help that inform them of their amplifier choice. And how aware they are that if they violate such, they are listening to colorations as opposed to what they think is high fidelity.

And how it is that we want to accept reviews of loudspeakers that have no measurements as such.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,043
995
Utah
Fortunately all my feelings about wire sound are "IMHO", no one one can feel offended with them. Speciality wires were developed by industry long ago before the high-end, it is meaningless for whom they were developed. Every manufacturer has some interesting facts and findings to tell us, as well as his preferences. For facts on wire physical properties of silver plated wires and oxidation we can always access the ESA report Corrosion of Silver-Plated Copper Conductors ESA Journal 1984, Vol. 8 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...K-OpNzqJ0Dc0ACoq-mrsdxg&bvm=bv.96952980,d.d24 and the references of this paper.

It will give an idea of the problems intrinsic to silver plated wires. For me it seems that the main advantage of pure silver is just avoiding the inter layer problems!

I had experience with several brands of silver and silver plated wire (Kimber KS3038/1136, Van den hul SCS2 , Mandrake , Audioquest Sterling, Crystal Dreamline and can not associate the metal to a definite type of sound. Curiously in a manufacturer range, if they have copper and silver wires, the silver wire ones seemed to me to sound better - but they were in general much more expensive. I can not however be sure if it was because of the silver or the general better quality of the cable.

Aside from the raw materials what's not discussed is the cable design which has a huge impact on the final cable. Each material does have its own qualities you can't deny that. In my own case I have never liked any product with silver in it. Sometimes its because of the obvious silver signature and sometimes I hear something that's off and only later I find out that there's silver wire used in the product. Silver plated copper doesn't bother me like pure silver.

david
 

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