I am a luddite - in other words Mains Cable

M

Loheswaran said:

Can someone here help we with the logic and science of mains cables.

Cables are 100's miles long - they travel via several 'dirty' sources before they get to me. How is it it that from my wall plug to my amp it is purported to make a world of difference (that's i nthe absence of any sort of filtering) - now I understand the logic of good clean connectors making a good connection.

I also appreciate filtering - although I am led (should that be lead) to understand that some suppress dynamic.

Help me OBIWAN KENOBI - or anyone for that matter. thanks

Lohan

Click to expand...

Like you I felt exactly the same way until I began reading members' reviews regarding Shunyata power cords but more so now that Caelin has three different power cords meant to be used for either High Current, Digital and Analog. These power cords have filters to remove noise introduced by the components back into the system. This is far from subtle when you listen. In fact I denied to myself that such a benefit could be heard. Until I used some in my system. I have now drunk the Koool Aid as every power cord in my system is now a Shunyata Sigma. IME I have not found any prior PC which does anything comparable to the Shunyata. There is science behind the Zitron circuit.

Loheswaran said:

Can someone here help we with the logic and science of mains cables.

Cables are 100's miles long - they travel via several 'dirty' sources before they get to me. How is it it that from my wall plug to my amp it is purported to make a world of difference (that's i nthe absence of any sort of filtering) - now I understand the logic of good clean connectors making a good connection.

I also appreciate filtering - although I am led (should that be lead) to understand that some suppress dynamic.

Help me OBIWAN KENOBI - or anyone for that matter. thanks

Lohan

Click to expand...

do you believe your ears? or must the science and logic first connect the dots in your mind before your ears are open to what they might hear?

there is no wrong answer.

if you are open to hearing where power (mains) cables matter to sonic performance then try some out. decide for yourself whether power (mains) cables matter.

the science and logic side of cable performance is such a logical quagmire as to be not be worth the time to discuss. some want all that science and live and die with it. others see the pseudo-science from cable builders as worse than nothing.

I would say that at the entry level of high end audio power (mains) cables do not have significant contributions to the whole. but as the system gets quieter, more dynamic, and has more detail....power (mains) cables along with all power grid improvements make greater and greater contributions. and as you go along colorations (or lack thereof) in power (mains) cables can steer the system balance one way or another.

and it's hard to separate what the power (mains) cables do and the quality of your power grid and in-wall cable and outlets. as you go along it all matters. it's simply easier to deal with power cords than the other stuff to begin with.

Even at the entry-level of a high end system PCs can make a difference. I know they did with mine and I would never go back to stock cables again. I noticed some added lushness which I suppose is due to the cleaner signal providing a quieter background. I don't know enough about the technology to describe it any other way.

Loheswaran said:

Can someone here help we with the logic and science of mains cables.

Cables are 100's miles long - they travel via several 'dirty' sources before they get to me. How is it it that from my wall plug to my amp it is purported to make a world of difference (that's i nthe absence of any sort of filtering) - now I understand the logic of good clean connectors making a good connection.

I also appreciate filtering - although I am led (should that be lead) to understand that some suppress dynamic.

Help me OBIWAN KENOBI - or anyone for that matter. thanks

Lohan

Click to expand...

You appear to be looking at it from a noise contamination point of view. Which is fine but you are overlooking the primary purpose of the power grid which to is to deliver current to the components in your home. Noise reduction may be important to audiophiles but it is secondary to the primary purpose.

First, the fact that there is literally 10's of thousands of miles power cabling in the power grid has virtually no bearing on what happens locally in your home. It is analogous to the water distribution system that supplies water to your home. The fire department could hook a fire hose up on your street and flow massive amounts of water. While you could hook a thin garden water hose up to your faucet and get a feeble stream of water. Both come from the same source but the final few feet of water hose does make a huge difference in water flow. If you used a larger diameter garden hose wouldn't you get better water flow?

It is the same for AC electrical power delivery. Technically, the power grid acts as a constant voltage source of power. That grid is capable of delivering massive current to your home. So much so that in the event of a short circuit in the wiring, it will literally vaporize the copper wiring. This is why there are circuit breakers in the electrical panels - to prevent fire. Common, commodity power cords can dramatically impact DTCD (dynamic transient current delivery) to your components. These power cords are usually made with smaller gauge wire than is found in the wall circuits and the contacts and the method of attachment to the wire and contacts in the power cord are often compromised. All of this impacts instantaneous current delivery to the electronic component.

The other concept to start thinking about is how AC power actually functions. Most books and experts use the analogy that I used above about water flowing through a hose. While this is helpful to explain some aspects of power delivery it is not really how AC power works at all. Current does not flow into a component as waters flows onto the plants in the garden. AC current oscillates back a forth between the HOT and the NEUTRAL conductors. So from the perspective of the component's power supply - the power cord is the first few feet of power wiring not the last. Current moves through the power supply's transformer and then reverses direction every 50-60 times per second.

There is much more to it scientifically but you haven't said what your background is so I don't know if the information would mean anything to you or not.

This article written by Michael Fremer might help: http://www.shunyata.com/images/review_pdfs/MichaelFremer_012012.pdf

And then this article provides more information about DTCD.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm

Then watch the video DTCD (Dynamic Transient Current Delivery)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=144&v=M-xkQZ4qlDc

I saw the last video. You are measuring current from the wall and demonstrate that your PCs are capable of more current delivery. I get that part. However, I don't think there are any components I know of which draw 500 amps much less 1,000 from the wall under any scenario at any voltage.

Have you ever measured the analog output of a high current device like a massive power amp with and without one of your PCs? Could you demonstrate such a dramatic dofference in the current capability of such an amp? I only ask this question because I often see this happen in HIFI where a logical inference is made with only indirect measurements.

CGabriel said:

You appear to be looking at it from a noise contamination point of view. Which is fine but you are overlooking the primary purpose of the power grid which to is to deliver current to the components in your home. Noise reduction may be important to audiophiles but it is secondary to the primary purpose.

First, the fact that there is literally 10's of thousands of miles power cabling in the power grid has virtually no bearing on what happens locally in your home. It is analogous to the water distribution system that supplies water to your home. The fire department could hook a fire hose up on your street and flow massive amounts of water. While you could hook a thin garden water hose up to your faucet and get a feeble stream of water. Both come from the same source but the final few feet of water hose does make a huge difference in water flow. If you used a larger diameter garden hose wouldn't you get better water flow?

It is the same for AC electrical power delivery. Technically, the power grid acts as a constant voltage source of power. That grid is capable of delivering massive current to your home. So much so that in the event of a short circuit in the wiring, it will literally vaporize the copper wiring. This is why there are circuit breakers in the electrical panels - to prevent fire. Common, commodity power cords can dramatically impact DTCD (dynamic transient current delivery) to your components. These power cords are usually made with smaller gauge wire than is found in the wall circuits and the contacts and the method of attachment to the wire and contacts in the power cord are often compromised. All of this impacts instantaneous current delivery to the electronic component.

The other concept to start thinking about is how AC power actually functions. Most books and experts use the analogy that I used above about water flowing through a hose. While this is helpful to explain some aspects of power delivery it is not really how AC power works at all. Current does not flow into a component as waters flows onto the plants in the garden. AC current oscillates back a forth between the HOT and the NEUTRAL conductors. So from the perspective of the component's power supply - the power cord is the first few feet of power wiring not the last. Current moves through the power supply's transformer and then reverses direction every 50-60 times per second.

There is much more to it scientifically but you haven't said what your background is so I don't know if the information would mean anything to you or not.

This article written by Michael Fremer might help: http://www.shunyata.com/images/review_pdfs/MichaelFremer_012012.pdf

And then this article provides more information about DTCD.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm

Then watch the video DTCD (Dynamic Transient Current Delivery)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=144&v=M-xkQZ4qlDc

Click to expand...

dallasjustice said:

I saw the last video. You are measuring current from the wall and demonstrate that your PCs are capable of more current delivery. I get that part. However, I don't think there are any components I know of which draw 500 amps much less 1,000 from the wall under any scenario at any voltage.

Have you ever measured the analog output of a high current device like a massive power amp with and without one of your PCs? Could you demonstrate such a dramatic dofference in the current capability of such an amp? I only ask this question because I often see this happen in HIFI where a logical inference is made with only indirect measurements.

Click to expand...

All good questions. And as it is with the other misconceptions about power delivery outlined below - these too have implied errors in conceptional understanding of the underlying science and physics involved. A power cord is a simple device which in its simplest form is just a bundle of three conductors and two connectors so there is the natural tendency to dismiss its operation as being simple also.

An AC power cords that is attached to an electronic component is an electrical extension of the component's power supply and can dramatically affect the operation of the power supply. So, to understand the role and impact of the power cord we need to talk about the operation of the power supplies used in electronic components. I have gone over this ground multiple times on multiple forums and in print articles. I really don't want go over the same ground again. It is clear from your question (and this not a criticism) that you did not read the second listed article written by Marc Michelson. In this article is a very complete description of how power supplies function and why DTCD is important. Please read that article as a basis for discussion - then we can move on to the reasons power cords even make a difference.

I am going to move this discussion to the Shunyata Research Forum for those that want to participate further. I intend to post several subjects that involve power supply function, current ratings, measurement equipment and other background information that relate to power supply function and its relationship with power cord performance.

But I will briefly answer your questions you have asked here so that those that do not want to follow a technical discussion have an answer.

You are measuring current from the wall and demonstrate that your PCs are capable of more current delivery. I get that part. However, I don't think there are any components I know of which draw 500 amps much less 1,000 from the wall under any scenario at any voltage.

Click to expand...

There is a difference between measuring continuous current and instantaneous current. Let's define some terms that are commonly used and sometimes very misunderstood. Amp is short for ampere which is a measurement that represents the rate at which current flows in a conductor. A quantity of electrical charge is defined by the unit coulomb. One ampere is defined as one coulomb of charge passing a point in the period of time of one second.

You are confusing rate of current flow with quantity of charge.

Simple multi-meters and amp meters measure continuous current for a period of time longer than one second. They do not measure instantaneous current flow. When an instantaneous current measurement is made that is less than one second you must remember that it is the rate of current that is given. For example: An instantaneous pulse of current that only has a period of 1/10 second may have a measurement of 200 amps. But the total current over a full second would be about 20 amps since for 9/10 of the second there is no current flow.

To understand why this even makes any difference in the context of power supplies and power cords you will need to read that article about DTCD.

Have you ever measured the analog output of a high current device like a massive power amp with and without one of your PCs? Could you demonstrate such a dramatic dofference in the current capability of such an amp? I only ask this question because I often see this happen in HIFI where a logical inference is made with only indirect measurements.

Click to expand...

Yes we have made these measurements and so have many others also.

And as you correctly point out the magnitude of difference is nowhere near the 30-50% differences that you see in DTCD measurements of the power cord's current delivery. However, I would point out that you have reversed the meaning of an indirect and direct measurement. If this is the question: "Do power cords make a difference and if so can you measure any difference?" And the primary function of a power cord is to deliver current - then it would follow that a measurement of current in the power cord is the direct measurement. Any measurements of its effects upon the output of an amplifier would be considered an indirect measurement.

Now I do understand your desire to know what the end result would be for the output of the amplifier and that is relevant. But, we have to start somewhere when the OP asks: "Can someone here help we with the logic and science of mains cables." There is science and logic involved by there are so many misconceptions about AC power in general and very specifically about power cords that it is important to clear some of this up.

Steve Williams said:

M

Like you I felt exactly the same way until I began reading members' reviews regarding Shunyata power cords but more so now that Caelin has three different power cords meant to be used for either High Current, Digital and Analog. These power cords have filters to remove noise introduced by the components back into the system. This is far from subtle when you listen. In fact I denied to myself that such a benefit could be heard. Until I used some in my system. I have now drunk the Koool Aid as every power cord in my system is now a Shunyata Sigma. IME I have not found any prior PC which does anything comparable to the Shunyata. There is science behind the Zitron circuit.

Click to expand...

But doesn't it logically conclude that it's the filtering your hearing, not the wire?

Tim

CGabriel said:

I would point out that you have reversed the meaning of an indirect and direct measurement. If this is the question: "Do power cords make a difference and if so can you measure any difference?" And the primary function of a power cord is to deliver current - then it would follow that a measurement of current in the power cord is the direct measurement. Any measurements of its effects upon the output of an amplifier would be considered an indirect measurement.

Now I do understand your desire to know what the end result would be for the output of the amplifier and that is relevant. But, we have to start somewhere when the OP asks: "Can someone here help we with the logic and science of mains cables." There is science and logic involved by there are so many misconceptions about AC power in general and very specifically about power cords that it is important to clear some of this up.

Click to expand...

An engineer arguing with lawyer about the meanings of words is as foolish as a lawyer arguing with an engineer about electrical circuits.

Good info, thanks. I think what make instantaneous power availability increasingly important is the interplay of multiple devices all vying for high current - devices within and outside of your audio system.

BTW - I have both the Venom 3 and Black Mamba CX, now I can visually explain why 1 sounds better than the other!

Has anyone ever measured a change in the performance of a component or a system, that would fall within the audible range, as a result of changing a power cable?

Tim

Phelonious Ponk said:

Has anyone ever measured a change in the performance of a component or a system, that would fall within the audible range, as a result of changing a power cable?

Tim

Click to expand...

Well, that was my question. The answer is yes. Are you satisfied now?

Phelonious Ponk said:

Has anyone ever measured a change in the performance of a component or a system, that would fall within the audible range, as a result of changing a power cable?

Tim

Click to expand...

I had a visual change as the result of the affect of the installation of an isolation transformer; does that count?

My ears have detected a change. Whether science has sufficiently advanced to the point where we know what, and how, to measure that change, I do not know.

Mike Lavigne said:

I had a visual change as the result of the affect of the installation of an isolation transformer; does that count?

Click to expand...

As evidence of a measurable change from switching power cords? No.

Tim

BlueFox said:

My ears have detected a change. Whether science has sufficiently advanced to the point where we know what, and how, to measure that change, I do not know.

Click to expand...

After spending all that money($30K?), on SR PCs and PLCs, I guess it must be comforting that your ears have detected a change.

jap said:

After spending all that money($30K?), on SR PCs and PLCs, I guess it must be comforting that your ears have detected a change.

Click to expand...

Valid Point indeed, I was extremely skeptical too, and though I have over 5K in PLC and PC, I feel I have experienced empirical evidence of their effects. On records like DSOTM the opening low end on the intro, with the DMITRI/HZ combo room resonances were violently activated, where as prior to the PLC/PC there was good bass, but no resonances, and yes volume was standardized with an SPL meter. The bass was obviously deeper, you could feel it and see the windows vibrating. The effects of a good PLC and PC are obvious in a high resolution system, though in my experience they sometimes can rob music of some of its pace/rhythm and sort of sugar coat the music a little. They can also give you more resonances to tame!

jap said:

After spending all that money($30K?), on SR PCs and PLCs, I guess it must be comforting that your ears have detected a change.

Click to expand...

Oh yes. I am continually amazed at how each upgrade improves the sound. It is no different than a gear upgrade, except it is the power! That part just amazes me. I get a bigger kick out of improvements from power upgrades than gear upgrades because they are so unexpected. Of course, it does add up. However, my total Shunyata investment is less than a single bling cable.

dallasjustice said:

Well, that was my question. The answer is yes. Are you satisfied now?

Click to expand...

Well, not really, the answer was yes, it has been measured many times, followed by a discussion of measuring the current flow of cables in isolation and a bit of semantics about what is direct and what is indirect (Is "direct" the measurement of the output of the component the PC is supposed to improve, or the measurement of the cable in isolation? I think that depends on the objective of the measurement). If anything was said about a measured change in the performance (you put it better -- analog output) of a component as a result of an upgraded PC, I must have missed that part. And of course, an audible change in the output of the component in question - lower noise floor, lower distortion, flatter FR, faster response... - is the only thing that matters, and the thing that never seems to get discussed in anything but anecdotal reports from audiophiles and cable suppliers.

So no...nothing satisfactory, or convincing, here so far.

Tim