Advice on new room

BFlowers · Sep 5, 2014

I am in the framing stage of a new 2 channel listening room. Dimensions are 31x20x11. I have a acoustician who did my current hybrid theater/2 channel room that I have confidence in regarding acoustic design. He does not have expertise in power and I would like to hear the collective wisdom of the group regarding this subject. My equipment, which may or may not remain the same, is full Vivaldi stack, Boulder 2010 and 2060 pre and power amp respectively, and Wilson Alexandria X2 S2. My current room has multiple dedicated lines and I run the amp at 240V. There are definitely some ground loops in my current room, but the Boulder stuff is fairly immune to it. (Not so with some single ended SET tubes I had in for demo once). I live in a neighborhood that is not densely populated and I believe the power is generally reasonable. I use 2 flavors of Oyaide outlets which I enjoy. My current room also has it's own sub panel. Also of note is I am installing a lightning rod system with it's included grounding rods as part of the addition I am building, and will retrofit it to the existing house as well. I live in the Dallas area, and we have had some issues with lightning in the recent past. Hopefully that's enough background. I would love to hear suggestions regarding grounding, breaker boxes, outlets, etc. I would also love to find an electrician in the DFW area who could implement these suggestions. Fire away!!

Brian

LenWhite · Sep 6, 2014

I'm also about to begin building an addition with a dedicated (listening) media room (19.5Lx15.5Wx11H).

I'm using Acoustic Frontiers for the acoustic design. The wall construction is cbs with furring strips, isolation clips, hat channel, and damped drywall. Damped drywall also on ceiling but screwed to joists. The floor is to be engineer wood over concrete pad with a thick area rug. The front wall will have (4) equally spaced 10.5'Hx2'Wx8"D acoustic module support columns starting in the corners. The columns in addition to diffusers, will house (14) 2'Wx2'W tuned membrane bass modules in specific column locations ranging from 29Hz to 109Hz. Each side wall will have (3) acoustic module support columns (same size), and in addition to diffusers and diffuser/absorbers, will consist of (8) tuned membrane bass modules in specific column locations ranging from 58Hz to 116Hz. The rear wall will have a 6'Wx6'Hx2'D "bookcase" consisting of fiberglass behind (3) RPG BAD panels. The ceiling will have (4) 6'x6' framed RPG BAD panel "clouds" suspended about 1' from the ceiling with integrated led room and mood lighting.

The media room will use a 100A sub-panel with “twisted L-N” 30A wire and a straight ground wire run in pvc conduit to (3) power circuits dedicated to the audio-video equipment. The line and neutral conductors are twisted at about five twists per foot. According to a paper presented at the AES 129th convention, this wiring configuration offers the lowest ground voltage induction of any tested. Media room lighting will be run off the main electrical and have it's own dedicated A/C.

musicargyle · Sep 6, 2014

Hello from Argyle up the road from you. I built a home w/ a dedicated music room which is also the main living space. The room is 41'dX29'w w ceilings that start at 12' and slope to 19 where is a clerestory to 21'. Behind the main room is a 17'X14' opening that extends to another open space app.35'X27". The room was designed to be so large as to mitigate reflections & let LF waves unfold sans wall reflections. The floor was engineered using screeds screwed to slab w/ Corning insulation packed between spans, covered w/ 3/4" MDF and layered in felt. The final floor is 3/4" T&G oak . Many area rugs & PVC tubes for threading connections.
The framing is all 6" & 8" fir, covered in 1/2 birch ply (screwed) and finished in ASR (also screwed.) Having lived in a space before that was app the same size I knew the sheer volume of the room would be essential to replicate larger scale recordings. I choose not to use any traps other acoustic devices & "tune" the system by way of speaker & chair placement.It is a luxury to be able to build a dedicated music room but I have worked decades to be able to do it & love it daily.
The good news: The system "plays the room" and one can hear the synergy between the recored music, equipment & massive room volume. The down side , I need more power. My JRDG amps are not enough on really high SPL symphonic music (not bad but more juice would be better.)
AS for power its all done by way of a dedicated 30amp lines & hell yes I have a bad ass lighting rods & ground rod set up that gives me a false feeling of security here in N Texas.
All Shunyata PC goodies but I unplug the whole thing when I see a chance of a storm.
Enjoy the new room!!

elescher · Sep 6, 2014

My suggestion is to run dedicated power to an isolated circuit breaker for the new room. I would recommend a dedicated isolated active ground which provides the least amount of resistance. I wouldn't install any wall transformers or permanant AC conditioning. I would use Furutech Rhodium outlets. I would get a Tripoint Troy. Look into upgraded wire to your outlets from the AC panel. I would use Shunyata power cables. I would use Audio Magic fuses wherever possible. I would use stibilant 22 on all connections.

With regard to room treatments, I would start with bare drywall preferably 3 layers and experiment. No acoustic measuring in advance can predict sound, just make certain your room measurements are appropriate.

BFlowers · Sep 6, 2014

I agree with not putting any permanent conditioning or isolation transformers in the system. I'm also a bit skeptical of balanced power. I'm not familiar with what a dedicated isolated active ground is. Please elaborate.

For LenWhite: Dis you choose a specific type of subpanel? Will the average electrician understand how to implement the following: “twisted L-N” 30A wire and a straight ground wire run in pvc conduit to (3) power circuits dedicated to the audio-video equipment. The line and neutral conductors are twisted at about five twists per foot.

Thanks

LenWhite · Sep 7, 2014

BFlowers said:
For LenWhite: Dis you choose a specific type of subpanel? Will the average electrician understand how to implement the following: “twisted L-N” 30A wire and a straight ground wire run in pvc conduit to (3) power circuits dedicated to the audio-video equipment. The line and neutral conductors are twisted at about five twists per foot.

Thanks

I've inserted the WBF thread that discusses the AES paper on twisted pairs. There's a simple illustration on page 6 - my contractor's electrician understood the concept.

I don't have any particular sub-panel in mind other than a quality one like a Cutler-Hammer.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12963-Dedicated-Audio-Power-Circuit/page2

JackD201 · Sep 7, 2014

Hi Brian,

I use a Siemens panel.

Jack

Nyal Mellor · Sep 7, 2014

New sub panel for the listening room run straight back to the main panel. No non-AV loads on the new sub panel.

Keep all runs from listening room to sub panel as short as possible.

Add a 'whole house surge protector' to the new sub panel. Take a look at the EP-2050.

All non-240V gear on one 120V leg.

If the new listening room has an additional ground (which sounds like it might since you refer to a lightning rod system) then also install a ground filter between the sub panel and the main panel.

elescher · Sep 7, 2014

http://www.erico.com/products/ChemRod.asp. This is a link to the active ground I was referring to. The copper lead wire is welded to the rod for a secure airtight connection. Another breaker panel to consider is the Isoclean Zero Ohm Panel. I have the line coming out of my Troy going directly to the ChemRod ground.

jahnghalt · Sep 7, 2014

What are the objections to isolation transformers?

I can think of only one - regulation issues if the transformer is under-sized.

I first became aware of their use when I corresponded with a recording engineer who said he was partly responsible for getting balanced power into the National Electrical Code (which, of course, is safety-concerned, being part of the larger Fire Code).

This was 1995 - and sure enough there was a new code article addressing 60V/neutral/60V feeders and brach circuits.

If I were building a room, I'd consider at least two "separately derived" sources - in addition to non-isolated power - "just in case". Such would add little to the overall cost (about 5-10% gut-estimate). Smaller/separate for sources and preamps, separate for music servers, separate for power amps.

It wouldn't hurt to get a cheap power monitor/recorder - see what the voltage swings are for a week or a month.

(sooo easy to spend other people's money, HUH?!)

Equitech supports balanced power:

http://www.equitech.com/

Cheers

Jahn Ghalt

FrantzM · Sep 7, 2014

Hi

The notion of "dedicated lines' is very much favored by my fellow audiophiles. I suggest that the only thing dedicated in such lines are the breakers, else the power is shared at the main panel, that of the whole house and there, all nasties can (will) get in the circuits. Regardless of how much care is taken those lines are connected to the other lines feeding your Climate Sytem, your TV, your garage door opener, actually everything else in the house. It is best to isolate the lines to your Audio equipment from the others by putting a filtering device on the way to your system. Powerful electronics will necessitate appropriately dimension-ed filtering devices.
I would suggest to take a serious look at an isolation transformer (actually that is not my true belief, I am bowing to the constituency of WBF audiophiles

, by not suggesting a serious Double Conversion Industrial UPS ) but to remain within a more manageable and electric-codes friendly Power system I would go with the isolation transformer. I would go with something such as the Torus, i believe they have models capable of 100 A @ 240 V, about 24 KVA of power , enough for tri-amping with the Boulders

. Isolation transformers have gotten a bad rap because of dimension issues. If you put too small an isolation transformer it may choke your system but even a 50A isolation transformer is quite enough for the most brutal class A amplifiers commercially available... I doubt two pairs of the biggest Boulder amplifiers would together draw 100 Amp from the power line .. even at full tilt and with any speaker you care to think of... Another way to look at transformer before we go perpetuating the myth of transformer "choking" systems is that at the end your house electrical system is connected to a transformer... You are sharing the same power feed with with several other houses in the neighborhood ..

BTW I believe in proper grouding of electrical equipment as well. i like the idea of Chemical Grounds too, haven't tried them yet .. i hasten to say that I am not a fan of specialty audiophiles grounding accessories such at the Thor and other of its ilk...

BFlowers · Sep 8, 2014

Thanks for all the responses. Conceptually the isolation transformer makes sense, but I've heard so many negative stories about them. It would be tough to take that leap without hearing some examples of positive experiences. I have read some of your posts in the past regarding the Double Conversion UPS. It sounds interesting.

BFlowers · Sep 8, 2014

Nyal,

What is your rationale for the whole house surge protector? Does it affect sound quality? I hear there is a way to bypass them as well.

microstrip · Sep 8, 2014

IMHO you can not separate the design of the mains power system from your specific audio system and even power conditioning intentions. Every WBF member will surely list his own preference, but I would contact Boulder - the manufacturers of your equipment for advice, stating that you have the X2, a very efficient speaker. Are you considering power conditioning systems? I have a penchant for Shunyata power systems, but do not have experience with them in solid state systems.

es347 · Sep 8, 2014

Lightning rod? Priceless!

Frank750 · Sep 8, 2014

BFlowers said:
Thanks for all the responses. Conceptually the isolation transformer makes sense, but I've heard so many negative stories about them. It would be tough to take that leap without hearing some examples of positive experiences. I have read some of your posts in the past regarding the Double Conversion UPS. It sounds interesting.

I had a 90A Torus Power panel installed a couple of months ago and it was an excellent move. System has never sounded better. Also use Shunyata conditioning and they work very well together.

BFlowers · Sep 8, 2014

As I move into the new room, all my equipment is up for reassessment. I will most likely keep the Vivaldi stack. Second most likely to remain are the Alexandrias. I plan to go on a tour of systems over the next few months to decide what to do for amplification. I was committed to solid state in the past as it was impractical for my 3 kids under 11 to be turning on tube amps every time they wanted to watch a movie. Now I have all options open. I have become used to hearing "everything" in a recording as I moved up the chain in the Boulder line. My goals are probably similar to everyone else's on this forum, which is to have it all: a detailed yet musical system. The Boulder is constructed so well that it has been totally immune to power conditioning. I have tried it all, including a recent extended trial of the FULL Shunyata set-up. It did nothing for the Boulder. I must mention that the Shunyata folks were absolutely awesome to deal with, and I would recommend them without reservation. There just wasn't a synergy there. It concerns me that many of the systems I read about on the forums seem to require conditioning, vibration control, etc to reach their full potential. Someone more knowledgeable than me can probably explain that. Anyway, on the short list are upgrading the Boulder to 2160 or 3160, possible 2110 pre-amp as well, Lamm, Zanden, and Dartzeel. Should be fun.

Frank750, I followed your thread about the Torus. Ultimately, did it "change" the quality of the sound? I'm sure we have all had experiences where we add something and there is a clear effect. Often it's tough to say it's better, just different. A challenging question I know.

Frank750 · Sep 9, 2014

BFlowers said:
Frank750, I followed your thread about the Torus. Ultimately, did it "change" the quality of the sound? I'm sure we have all had experiences where we add something and there is a clear effect. Often it's tough to say it's better, just different. A challenging question I know.

In my case, the Torus was an absolute necessity and an audio life saver. I had spent almost a year chasing a problem destroying the sound in my room. I had industry experts, electrical trouble shooters and anyone I could think of into my house to try and solve my issues. After swapping out every piece of equipment, wire, outlets and anything else associated with my audio room and system, I discovered that a small isolation transformer in an old Richard Gray conditioner appeared to make a positive change in system performance. I then tried a little larger Torus rack unit which made an even better impression and gave me the impetus to purchase the Torus wall unit.

Without the Torus panel, my system is unlistenable in my room. With it, the sound is glorious. This is not exaggeration, it's fact. No one could ever tell me what happened. I live in an area with many restaurants, bars and stores. Something changed with my electricity during the last year, (I've lived here 8 years previously with no problem) but none of the people I brought in to diagnose my problem could find the cause of my issues.

Thankfully, the addition of the Torus unit has allowed me to enjoy listening again and stop the incessant analyzing of my system. I was not looking for an "effect" with the installation of the Torus, I was seeking a solution that would allow me to listen to a high end system in my house again and the Torus panel delivered.

rsorren1 · Sep 10, 2014

BFlowers said:
Thanks for all the responses. Conceptually the isolation transformer makes sense, but I've heard so many negative stories about them. It would be tough to take that leap without hearing some examples of positive experiences. I have read some of your posts in the past regarding the Double Conversion UPS. It sounds interesting.

Brian, I would be happy to show you the implementation of an isolation transformer at my house since we live in the same city. Here is a link to CPC K-Rated isolation transformer.
http://www.controlledpwr.com/Ultra-K_K-Rated_Isolation_Transformer.html

WBF member Babybear from Austin hired a power consultant when he did his dedicated room and the power solution recommended for his room was carried forward to mine on a slightly smaller scale. Whole house surge protector is a good idea and was recommended by the commercial electrician I hired for the installation. The CPC Ultra K transformers are ordered with a small number of options all of which were designated by the power consultant. I can show you those as well. The results with the CPC are outstanding. I am seeing (and hearing) similar results in my system as those that you are reading from others who have implemented Torus or others. Contact me with a private message if interested in seeing and hearing an implementation.

Frank750 · Sep 10, 2014

My Torus unit also has optional surge suppression.

From Torus:
A Transient Voltage Surge Suppression (TVSS) device is provided with Torus Power All-in-One Panels (AIO), and is available as an option for Wall Mount (WM) and Floor Mount (FM) models. These UL certified Panel TVSS devices have a sub-nanosecond response time and manage surges up to 120,000 Amps, model depending. The TVSS also offer additional noise filtration of EMI and RFI (40 db typical).

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