Let's Help A Music Lover Make A Big Difference

Well if he's happy with the "tone" of the system upgrade the amp. If he's interested in changing the sound of the system upgrade the speakers. Before he does anything though I would recommend he take a tour of audiophile friends houses to see what he likes.

I'd suggest he look at a tube integrated amp. Something like the Rogue Cronus Magnum ($2,295). The sound will be completely different and something he may like.

at the 'decent' entry level of gear, speakers can make by far the largest difference in system performance.....and push a 'mid-fi' level system to a 'hifi' level IMHO. and great speakers allow for other upgrades to be fully realized and appreciated as budget permits.

so i would return the JBL Studio 580's, and then purchase Evolution Acoustic MicroOne's for $4k. he would need to find another $400 someplace.

http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/microone/

stands are included.

my only caution would be the 45 watts into 8ohm output of the 351a might limit dynamics in a large room. however; most modest small speakers are likewise not easy loads.

these speakers would take things to another level or three to my thinking. the MicroOnes can compete with many $10k and $20k speakers head to head. very refined.

my next step might be to upgrade the amplification but it could wait.

my brother-in-law actually has a similar system with an Oppo as a source, a mid priced reciever and the MicroOne's as speakers....and it sounds damn good.

Why is he using an Oppo BDP 105 ($1200) ? The Cambridge amplifier accepts USB audio 1.0 16-bit 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz. What else is needed?

Phelonious Ponk said:

He's enjoying the system now. You're the only audiophile he knows. He loves listening to music, wants to invest his $2k windfall in listening pleasure and is asking you where it would do the most good.

Tim

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i'd tell him to invest in more music.

dingus said:

i'd tell him to invest in more music.

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Me too. If it ain't broke don't fix it. If he wasn't enjoying the system, that would be another story. Still, I would start first with telling him to experiment on speaker placement and basic acoustic fixes that involve stuff already in his room.

One thing for sure, I have no way of telling what this system would sound like by looking at specs. I'd have to visit him then basically interview him.

Phelonious Ponk said:

Disc player. Headphone amplifier. He got sold on the "audiophile quality" of the Oppo's DAC. In any case, this is the system he has. The challenge is improving it for $2k. And Mike. He's had the system for a couple of years, and it is not returnable. You're $2400 over budget. Now, maybe he could get $500 for the JBLs on ebay. then you're only $1900 over budget.

More music is a really good idea, but I think there are a couple of key weaknesses in this system that might be addressable in budget.

Tim

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What do you think his weaknesses are?

Address room acoustics with some treatments perhaps?

Phelonious Ponk said:

Disc player. Headphone amplifier. He got sold on the "audiophile quality" of the Oppo's DAC. In any case, this is the system he has. The challenge is improving it for $2k. And Mike. He's had the system for a couple of years, and it is not returnable. You're $2400 over budget. Now, maybe he could get $500 for the JBLs on ebay. then you're only $1900 over budget.

More music is a really good idea, but I think there are a couple of key weaknesses in this system that might be addressable in budget.

Tim

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ok; you are stuck with the electronics as their used value is negligible.....based on the limits you are setting.

I would still go ahead and sell the speakers for $500; then get the best speakers I could 'used' for the $2500 (likely $5k-$7k original retail value). that is still by far the biggest potential leap in performance possible.

plan 'B' might be Sennheiser HD-800 headphones (or other headphone 'flavor' of choice).....although my clear choice would be upgrading the speakers which would far outperform the headphones.

of course; this is based on the guys desire to have help attaining the best possible performance for the money.

if you assume he has a computer and room on his hard drive, he could also get J-River software and a USB cable and see if he has friends with some files.

you can help him tune his room, dial in his speakers, find DIY room treatments, and minimize any power grid or noise issues.....for free. you are his friend.

Phelonious Ponk said:

Personally, I think the softest spot may be clean headroom. I don't know the exact load characteristics of the JBLs, but the sensitivity spec is 90db. Probably not the easiest load for a 45 watt integrated amp. Another problem you've already pointed to -- it's a $3500 system with two DACs. It can't afford that redundancy. Many will disagree, but I also think the lack of bass control is a liability. In a system in that price range, I'd much rather have powered sub(s). They are moveable, they take a huge load off of the main amps. And they give you separate volume and crossover control. You get none if that with passive woofers. You set them down, placed for imaging the mids and highs, and get whatever your room gives you at the bottom end. Bass pot luck.

What weaknesses to you see?

Tim

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I suppose it depends on what sort of listening this guy prefers. but my priorities for speakers would have deep bass and macro-dynamics last, with coherency, micro-dynamics and refinement far more significant. if modest SPL's sound like ****, then I'm not pursuing deep bass and dynamics.

so a more powerful amp or a subwoofer would wait until I find a speaker which can allow me to hear into the music.....to me this is what separates mid-fi from hifi......sins of omission, not commission.

OTOH if the guy is a head-banger then go for the sub.

a matter of musical tastes.

a transducer lacking refinement limits exposure to new sorts of musical directions. a very important issue to me.

slowGEEZR said:

Address room acoustics with some treatments perhaps?

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Party pooper !

Phelonious Ponk said:

Over in Amir's Hi-res is audibly different thread, I've spent enough time sweating the small stuff and arguing over whether or not some untested listening protocol would reveal it to be bigger stuff than it appears to be. Let's talk about the stuff that makes a big difference, a big improvement in a system. Let's assume we have a friend, not an audiophile, but a serious music lover who has made what is, for him, a serious investment in a 2-channel system, what most here would call midfi:

Oppo BDP 105 ($1200 street, digital input for files from computer) https://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-105/
Cambridge Audio 351A, 45 watts, $550 street http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/hifi-and-home-cinema/azur-351a
JBL Studio 580s ($1600 pr. street) http://www.jbl.com/estore/jbl/us/products/Studio-580/STUDIO%20580_JBL_US
Belden cable <$100

So we've got a system that, set up well, will sound pretty good, for around $3500. He comes to you, the audiophile, and says he wants to spend his $2k tax refund on upgrading his listening experience. What would you recommend for maximum improvement, and why? Specs are available online.

Tim

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Replace the Belden with Gepco quad mic cable and use the Gepco speaker cable. There are dealers that will make them up.....let's say 300.00 but probably less.
http://www.gepco.com/products/proav_cable/analog_audio/mic_xband_dblbraid_M.htm

have them make a digital cable too.....IIRC there is a specific length.....1.5 meters?
http://www.gepco.com/products/proav_cable/digital_audio/75coax_flex_M.htm
http://www.gepco.com/products/proav_cable/digital_audio/110_sing_24gage_M.htm

put some isolation points umder the DAC.....Ebay 35.00 for a set of 4

Star ground everything with 4 gauge AWG.....Home Depot 35.00 the Cambridge would be the target... Intergrated amp to DAC,Int amp to ground....simple.

Do that first and then if that doesn't ring his bell.....change the speakers. As for the speakers...Do they image well,are they coherent in their presentation,and are they time domain correct(nothing is high lighted). If so for the money spent,he did well.

after 40+ years in this hobby....signal purity and operating from a common ground plane is most important. Anything else is unacceptable and that's the way a audio engineer see's it. Why would you not have the same fundamentals at work with the home reproduction system,that is engineered at the recording studio? The easiest route is to throw money at a system....pretty common....it's time for true understanding of what really matters. Btw nice system.

Another thing if the JBL speakers fit my criteria,the common ground plane or system lowered impedance will optimise them. If they don't disappear now,they will.

"One of the things Neil preached was was operating from a common "ground plane." Signal grounding is not as important as having everything operating in such a way that the there is no opportunity for a piece of equipment to operate at a different ground potential from other pieces of equipment.
Neil was a VERY knowledgable expert on grounding schemes. the most difficult ones involved re-routing grounds to some common point where everything could operate at the same ground potential. The facility could be on the 40th floor, but it didn't matter, as everything on that "40th floor" was referenced to the same common ground plane. Audio that entered and exited the facility was preferred to be a balanced protocol to preserve proper common mode operation.
Neil believed that it wasn't magic, just good engineering practice.
Neil was a great man to know and call a friend!"

Bill Lund
3M Audio Tech Service, (ret)

reproduced fron the Ampex List

Some decent cables........

If it were me, I would be in Mike's camp. I would take $1500 and buy a set of Apogee Stages...trade in the JBL for $500 and add the remaining $500 and get a 2nd hand Velodyne DD-series sub and run it in parallel. (Just hope that amp can handle it.) If not, sacrifice the sub and use the $1000 + whatever you can get on trade-in for the amp and get something that can drive the Apogees...and NAD perhaps.

Hi


I know nothing about the speakers, I would like to have TIm opinion on their worth.
Not do I know the Oppo.
I find the Cambrdige I heard back in the days decent to very good.
Don't care that much about cable, I don't think that is where the money should be spent at all.

The person has now $2,000 available. There are IMO two ways to improve his system

1) Leave ebevrything the same but change the speakers
2) Keep only the amp sell a few pieces and do a system make-over.

1) is pretty straightforward. Speakers must be easy to drive and of decent efficiency to help the amp. Or he can go active. At that price there are options. The Kef LS50 is one. I lived with one in a far from good room and was very pleased. Bass output is not that great but honest. There is also the Golden Ear Technologies Triton 3 speaker with , I believe an active bass, this could be the ticket, I heard the 3 and it is the real deal. I would also take seriously the PSB T6 at around $1200 the pair an excellent entry into high quality music reproduction.. Not lacking the least in bass BTW. Surprising oomph in the lows and midbass. Since he would have to sell the JBL he will have money left for music about $1200...

2)takes longer and is more complicated. maybe later...

I do use an Oppo in my Home Theatre for the last few years, one version back, and have had a few various Oppo's (one the higher 'audiophile' version) brought to my system by their owners to compare to my Playbacks Design. it's not bad, not great.....at it's price it's a good value universal player. in that general price range I'd likely choose the Mytek Digital as hard to beat at bang for the buck at $1695 if you could trade the Oppo at retail. but really at what you can get for the Oppo used it's not a viable way to go to pursue in the context of overall system performance.

I don't know that Cambridge integrated, but again the alternatives after selling the Cambridge used are not likely much better.

speakers is where the needle can be moved the most predictably, and better speakers allow for the 'next' step to make a bigger difference too.