Beer Taste

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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New York City
Started with tubes (Dynaco and Heathkit, what else?) in the early 70's. Upgraded to an old Eico amp, twin to one somebody gave me that I still have, and modified a Dynaco amp or two. Moved "up" to SS, starting with a homebrew system I built from National and Sanken app guides, progressing through various receivers and amps until a Hafler preamp built from a kit paired to a Hafler amp (DH-200?). Bi-amped speakers with a Phase 700 (that 700 was a love-hate relationship with far too little love and much hate). Worked at various TV repair shops and some high-end stereo stores, including working with some of the folk that started DiscWasher. Swung a deal to pick up an old ARC SP3a1 that was fantastic, and when the 700 blew up (again!) I managed to acquire an ARC D-79. I had gone through numerous speakers, from BIC through Infinity QLS-IIs (EMITs, great when they worked...) and had Magnepan MG-Is when I finally went "all-tube" for preamp and amp (still SS tuner, old Yamaha T-2, now in a box in the basement). I later upgraded to MG-IIIa's, and (after much searching trying to find a good match to the D-79 and speakers; Levinson and Krell just didn't) added a Counterpoint SA-220 to the D-79 and bi-amped the MG-IIIIa's. Had an ARC crossover for a while but eventually hard-wired it into the preamp (using the second set of outputs). Re-tubed and rebuilt several times over the next decade or so (late 80's to mid-90's), and modified the SP3a1 several times.

The advent of kids, new job, and a move put my gear in storage for a decade or so. Right before that, my ever-faithful D-79 blew an output tube, taking some other stuff with it, and I did not have the time nor money to repair it. We later moved to a new place, but work and Life was so demanding I never hauled out my old stereo gear. I bought a mid-range Yamaha receiver and pair of KEF speakers, then later a Denon AVR and Infinity Betas for a 3.1 (no surrounds) system in the family room. The years passed.

Two years ago, nearly 15 years in our new home, we finished the basement and I built a media room (floating walls and ceiling, independent HVAC, tricks from my installer and studio engineer days). I picked up a set of Mirage sats and sub for upstairs and moved the Infinity's down, adding more Nanosats for surrounds and rears, and new Denon AVR. First real HT system. Decided after some comparison listening I would never again get small speakers like the OMD-5's for mains (L/R); just didn't like the "small" sound and it was too easy to localize the sub with 80 Hz xover. The journey began anew...

A friend wanted help and as he was fairly well-heeled and wanted to try some nice speakers I helped him listen to B&W. Working with him, and thinking on my own HT stuff, made me realize how much I missed "hi-fi". My thoughts of getting perhaps a pair of new B&W 801's was quickly squelched by sticker-shock; the 801's were within striking distance of my budget in the 80's, but I liked the Maggies better. Now, they were totally out of reach. My friend struggled mightily but ended up with the 803D's; the difference between them and the 804's he had planned to get was simply too great. He also raved about his new AVR, a Pioneer SC-27, and all the things it could do.

Long story short (too late, I know), I dug up my MG-IIIa's and found them working. Out went the Infinity's, upstairs, and the Mirage system is sitting in the basement waiting for me to hook it up for the game room. A shiny new SC-27 took over for my fairly-new mid-range Sony and I gained an appreciation for modern room control (MCACC) and what a top-notch AVR offered. Feeling a bit underpowered (probably all in my head), and at the urging of that same friend who had picked up monoblocks for his B&W's (what are friends for?), I picked up a nearly-new Emotiva XPA-3, followed shortly by an XPA-2, and added Magnepan MC1's as surrounds and an Opp BD-83 (regular, using HDMI). I'd forgotten how good music could sound, and after generally ignoring the HT side for years discovered how great the sound and picture in the latest movies could be. I'm starting fresh in a new world and enjoying every minute!

I am gradually planning to sell my tube equipment as I simply haven't the time, energy, and resources to put into it that I once had. I really loved the sound, knowing it was colored, but I liked its color. My new system sounds very good to me, and I confess I have moved past listening to the equipment and want to simply listen to the music. I am also making music again, picking up my trumpet after 20 years off, and for the past 12 years now (hardly seems that long) have been playing in various groups around town (and accruing more horns, offset by a grand piano for my wife to avoid hogging all the musical instruments in the house). I am planning a few more upgrades, including finishing my room treatment (mostly done now, as much as I can -- the room ended up less than ideal in dimensions when we added a bedroom in the basement for my younger son, and my wood shop became an exercise/craft room for my wife). I moved things around and have a 7.1 setup now after dropping to 5.1 when I installed the Maggies; the rears are Mirage Nanosats soon to head out in favor of another pair of MC1s. The Pioneer is likely to move upstairs, giving me HDMI up in the family room, and an Integra DHC-80.2 is a gleam in my eye (I will have to pick up a small amp for the rears, natch).

I am a little sad I never restored and turned on the tube equipment, and probably never shall... It has been in storage nearly 15 years now and needs a lot of TLC, time, and money I simply am unwilling to spend now that I have a decent system. I miss the warm glow and warm sound of my tubes, but know most of the newer SS gear is technically superior and am happy with what I have going. Probably just old ears of clay, but my current system is enough to impress me. I had thought to retain the old gear for retirement puttering, but retirement is many years off, the restoration and upkeep is daunting, I have an HT system now that all can use instead of a basic stereo system, and I would rather see it all go to a good owner who will get as much joy out of it as I had back then.

And yet, I still wonder if, if someday I will return to tubes... The cost of gear now approaching the class of gear I had then is pretty steep, though, and will likely remain far out of reach. I am glad I had a taste of it so long ago, and equally glad that technology has moved on and provided me with sound that I can be happy to hear today. Not too mention see! - Don

Are solid-state products necessarily technically superior to tube gear? I offer up the LAMM gear -- see all the measurements that Bascom King did on Vlad's gear -- and I will put that up against any solid-state gear out there. And then of course, what measurements are meaningful and relate to the sound of electronics. I'd profer that there's far less of a corrolation between the sound of electronics and their measurements than for speakers-that is maybe with the exception of phono stages where quietness with a low output MC cartridge enters into the picture.
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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Are solid-state products necessarily technically superior to tube gear? I offer up the LAMM gear -- see all the measurements that Bascom King did on Vlad's gear -- and I will put that up against any solid-state gear out there. And then of course, what measurements are meaningful and relate to the sound of electronics. I'd profer that there's far less of a corrolation between the sound of electronics and their measurements than for speakers-that is maybe with the exception of phono stages where quietness with a low output MC cartridge enters into the picture.

I have never heard nor researched LAMM gear, but my answer is no, SS gear is not necessarily technically superior to tube gear. Most SS equipment will measure better, however, on almost every parameter. (N.B. I am generalizing horribly here, so please keep that in mind. Also, I am certainly no expert on this stuff, and a lot of my experience is pretty old now.) It takes a very good tube amplifier to approach the specs of an average SS amp. Tube preamps are much closer, often losing a smidgen on noise but matching or exceeding most everything else. The added gain required for MC does not always translate to lower noise for SS; there are plenty of "hissy" SS preamps out there. Or at least there were last time I auditioned them, years ago. And, in the phono stages, tubes generally offer much more headroom than SS pres. One issue they had (have?) is that Miller effect often increased the load capacitance on the cartridge relative to a SS design, and a lot of preamps did not take that into account, rolling off the high end. A lot depends upon the design(er), of course. At low or modest levels, tube and solid state components can sound (and measure) very much the same.

The transformer output tends to make tube amps "soften" the sound of many speakers. I'd have to really dig for papers on the subject, and given the state of the black hole in the basement I am sure others could find articles on-line much faster. The bottom line for me is that tube amps by and large simply do not provide accurate drive to most speakers. The resulting sound is an attraction, not a drawback, for many folk, myself included. What sounds better is not always, and perhaps not even usually, what people want to hear (or what sells).

I have posted before on the distortion characteristics of tubes vs. bipolar transistors. I'll simply repeat that intrinsically tubes have lower distortion than transistors at the same general operating conditions. SS amps achieve lower distortion through a combination of balanced circuits (almost invariably internally, even if the external connections are single-ended) and feedback that is generally higher than that in tube amplifiers. Again, generalizations. The argument has been made that lower feedback provides better sound; there is no reason that is inherently true -- there are many factors at play, and the LF or mid-range feedback factor typically quoted is just one of a myriad of variables.

In my experience, tube gear that strived for SS accuracy was panned as being "unmusical" and/or "too much like solid-state". Which, of course, it was (the latter), since that was the design goal. I built a very nice (and excellent-measuring) differential tube preamp with cathode followers to buffer the outputs in a little tube op-amp sort of circuit. It measured and sounded more accurate than my SP3a1. In the end, I sold the homebrew for a princely (to me) sum, and kept the ARC. As I said, I liked its color, and it was very accurate indeed if not quite so much as the homebrew.

That was also in the madness of ultra-wide bandwidth and ultra-low distortion. I am glad people seemed to finally realize that 1 MHz or more bandwidth and 0.0001% THD does not matter in the real world of RFI and speakers with 1% to 10% or more distortion. At least, some have... I am sure we all have friends that buy on specs and not their ears. I use the specs, and more so features, to narrow my choices, then listen.

The oft-cited "tubes clip nicer" is false, of course, at least in the limit. Clipped is clipped and generates wideband distortion. What makes the statement true is that tube amps tend to soft-saturate the transformer core and output stages, resulting in higher even-order distortion before hard clipping, and the limited output bandwidth tends to roll off some of the higher harmonics. If you want to delve into math, SS tends to clip right into square waves, while tube amps tend to create cosine-like pulses before hard clipping, then the output transformer rolls off the higher harmonics after hard clipping. Limited slew rate can be a blessing to the ears.

Didn't McIntosh produce SS amps using autoformers? I really did not like those amps, but I suppose they sold well. I felt their reasons had more to do with keeping the winders busy and (much more likely) protecting the speakers from unreliable transistors than sonic benefit, but that's pure conjecture.

There's much more, but there are folk much more competent than I to debate the issue, and it often falls into the realm of "faith" anyway. I loved my tubes, and perhaps shall again, but for now economics and various other factors dictate a SS system for me. I will say I am considering keeping and upgrading the SP3, especially if I decided to set up my TT again.

I glitched on the correlation comment, sorry. Are you saying that speaker measurements are more meaningful than ones for electronics, or the other way around? Taking meaningful measurements, interpreting those measurements, and correlating them to what we hear, that's where science meets art and ears, IMO.

All the best - Don
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
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La Jolla, Calif USA
Why is that most of us a'philes are so concerned about measurements? Personally, I have no interest in how a piece measures, I am just going with what my ears tell me, period. Which is why I never buy any piece of gear unless I have heard it, preferably in my system and in my own room.
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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Monument, CO
Musicians are generally concerned only with how something sounds, and are more inclined to comment on the flatted fifth than the horrible distortion from the speakers...

I have noticed a trend, sort of a "life cycle", with audiophiles:
  1. In the beginning, it's all about the music, and anything that plays LOUD is great. Happiness reigns.
  2. Upon introduction to a good system, all of a sudden good sound becomes a real goal, and the upgrade path begins.
  3. In the quest for perfection, and in the absence of full trust in their ears, measurements become the easy way to assess a system's performance. It becomes a numbers games, with the winner determined by the greatest bandwidth, lowest distortion, and most watts.
  4. A period of despondency often follows as the budding audiophile realizes there will never be enough money nor specifications good enough for that "perfect" system.
  5. Finally, acceptance that what really matters is the music, and a wide range of systems can provide reasonably realistic playback of what truly matters. Happiness begins anew.

All IMO - Don
 

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