RMAF 2013: Gear worth making the trip to Denver to hear... And not!

microstrip · Oct 17, 2013

Steve Williams said:
I would as well

Steve,
For the future XLF?

BTW, do you know if the Transparent audio IC cables used in the Doshi system at RMAF were balanced or SE?

Bruce B · Oct 17, 2013

MadFloyd said:
Funny, maybe it's just because of your Pass gear and mastering needs, but always had you pegged as a solid state guy. I would have guessed you'd be more inclined to go the D'Agostino route if you were to upgrade...

If I had my druthers, I'd have a great SS amp and tube pre.....

Bruce B · Oct 17, 2013

microstrip said:
Steve,
For the future XLF?
BTW, do you know if the Transparent audio IC cables used in the Doshi system at RMAF were balanced or SE?

All balanced

microstrip · Oct 17, 2013

Elliot G. said:
if the writers on these pages took a view that this is just a touch of what the gear is capable of rather than ripping the crap out of the products I might be able to agree with you. If you read just this one thread there are those that say that the Scaena was "magical" and then it was crap four posts later. There are those that say the Alexia's were killer and then they weren't. The blah blah room was amazing and then it wasn't. This is just in my opinion funny. I have done shows, been to too many and been a retail dealer for over 40 years. I have worked and founded Audio Den on LI, worked for a long time at Lyric Hi Fi in NYC ( considered at the time I was there as the best HE store in the world), opened and run Front Row Center in Florida for 20 years and now at Audio Advisors in Palm Beach. In that time I have been to many many manufacturers factories, listening rooms and homes. I have installed and set up too many systems to remember, I have listened to the systems of quite a few reviewers and I could go on for ever.
I have never and I repeat never ever heard any system at a show that could come close to a properly set up system in someone's listening room. Having said that this is a very small number of people that have taken the time and effort to make it work. Its not about just spending insane dollars because some of these were reasonably priced gear.
Set up and a proper environment is IMHO the MOST important factor in getting a great musical experience,

My best and latest example
As Steve knows I was never really sold on the Wilson speakers until a few months ago I had the opportunity to go to the transparent facilities outside Portland Maine.I have known Karen and Jack and Brad who works for them for many years. I know what they had and what they used however I was not expecting to hear what I heard. It was one of the most moving experiences I have had in my life. I expected great sound when I was in the TAS HP listening circle and Harry has at many time blown me away. This was very unexpected what happened and Transparent. I have been told numerous times about how great someone's system was only to be terribly disappointed. I want to explain here that I am not talking about an opinion of whether this was better then that blah blah blah but rather did the system sound good, coherent, fast , live open and generally make me forget if even for a second that I was listening to one.
I believe there is a lot of great stuff being made today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are many talented people working really hard to achieve these goals and the ones that have done the work, invested in a good listening space and lastly in good gear get great results.
My point is the same at a show all you can get is a mediocre taste of whats possible.
Take that and use that as a starting point not a point to make ABSOLUTE judgements.
The overwhelming majority of audiophiles now WAY more than me and tell me that every day.
There system is amazing and the BEST in the world
Only they know what is good and they have to validate their purchase by quoting others opinions BUT only when it validates theirs
This is not a competitive activity in my mind. I love music, all kinds of music,and if your system can move me, involve me and make me feel something then I am thrilled.
The rest of this is BULLSHIT

Warmest Regards
E

Great post!

LL21 · Oct 17, 2013

Bruce B said:
If I had my druthers, I'd have a great SS amp and tube pre.....

+1!!!!!

LL21 · Oct 17, 2013

Elliot G. said:
if the writers on these pages took a view that this is just a touch of what the gear is capable of rather than ripping the crap out of the products I might be able to agree with you. ...
I have never and I repeat never ever heard any system at a show that could come close to a properly set up system in someone's listening room. Having said that this is a very small number of people that have taken the time and effort to make it work. Its not about just spending insane dollars because some of these were reasonably priced gear.
Set up and a proper environment is IMHO the MOST important factor in getting a great musical experience,

My best and latest example
As Steve knows I was never really sold on the Wilson speakers until a few months ago I had the opportunity to go to the transparent facilities outside Portland Maine....It was one of the most moving experiences I have had in my life. ....My point is the same at a show all you can get is a mediocre taste of whats possible.
Take that and use that as a starting point not a point to make ABSOLUTE judgements.
...This is not a competitive activity in my mind. I love music, all kinds of music,and if your system can move me, involve me and make me feel something then I am thrilled.
The rest of this is BULLSHIT
Warmest Regards
E

microstrip said:
Great post!

Agree

Priaptor · Oct 17, 2013

I know Elliot very well and given his age and diet the only "moving experience" he now appreciates is on the toilet

still-one · Oct 17, 2013

Bruce B said:
If I had my druthers, I'd have a great SS amp and tube pre.....

When Nick finishes his 3.0 pre-amp with remote complete I will try another of his units in my system and decide between that and the Momentum pre-amp. A tube amp is just not in the cards for me.

Steve Williams · Oct 17, 2013

Priaptor said:
I know Elliot very well and given his age and diet the only "moving experience" he now appreciates is on the toilet

That was so funny that as why turning red with laughter and my wife asking me what's funny. I showed her and she too thought it was hilarious

Priaptor · Oct 17, 2013

Steve Williams said:
That was so funny that as why turning red with laughter and my wife asking me what's funny. I showed her and she too thought it was hilarious

You and your wife must know him too.

JackD201 · Oct 17, 2013

microstrip said:
Gary,

You are opening the gate of one of the most challenging and obscure subjects in high-end - why and how does a speaker overwhelm a room?
Although it is relatively easy to make speakers that disappear in a room, making the speakers and room disappear is much more difficult.

dispersion pattern vis a vis decay time across the audio band

microstrip · Oct 17, 2013

Bruce B said:
All balanced

Thanks.

One more detail about the RMAF tapes - what was the RIAA phono unit used in the transcription to DSD of the Take the A Train recording?
BTW, was there any PCM system being used in the XLF/Thor room during the sessions? As far as I could read there was no DCS upsampler in the system.

garylkoh · Oct 17, 2013

JackD201 said:
dispersion pattern vis a vis decay time across the audio band

I would refine that statement with "power spectrum". 'nuff said

mep · Oct 17, 2013

Priaptor said:
You and your wife must know him too.

I sure hope you know Elliott real well.

JackD201 · Oct 17, 2013

garylkoh said:
I would refine that statement with "power spectrum". 'nuff said

That's why I love ya man

Bill Hart · Oct 17, 2013

MadFloyd said:
I wasn't at this year's RMAF, but have been the prior two years and have some experience with Doshi as compared to some other brands including CJ & ARC.

A couple years ago while auditioning various preamps, I found that piano didn't sound natural on ARC (Ref5) or CJ (GAT). It sounded nice, but not 'real' to me, especially as compared to some solid state preamps. The piano sound to my ears was light and fluffy with no real weight, no real 'ivory' sound. I then auditioned Doshi and found it very realistic. I'm using piano as an example but it extends to other instruments as well. Of course this is just my opinion, but I thought I'd throw it out there because I for one am very glad that Doshi exists.

Also, I'm not quite sure I understand why you think a designer has to do something vastly different. Do you mean each brand should have a distinct signature sound - as in more color and less transparency? I think many of us want a product to be as transparent as possible without losing the soul of the music.

I find piano to be the most difficult to reproduce convincingly (aside from the explosive quality of kickdrum, which has more to do with the limitations of my system than anything else). The piano is tough, not just because of its expansive reach from low to high, compared to most other instruments, but because of the complexity of the instrument itself- the action, the harmonic overtones, the changes in timbre and harmonics as you ascend the scale. From what I gather, it is also one of the most difficult instruments to record effectively. And, given how it is tuned and voiced, dramatic differences in sound quality can result from the same piano, depending on what has been done to it by the person 'preparing' it.
I used to have a big Bosendorfer in our living room - the thing needed attention every couple weeks to sound right- it wasn't fragile, but very susceptible to changes in humidity. Capturing all of the various 'things' going on, from how the key is struck, to how much resonance the body of the piano has, to all the harmonic overtones, to the playing of additional notes while the harmonics are still decaying on earlier notes, makes considerable demands on a reproducing system- we should probably have a thread just on good recordings of piano for reference.
Hi Floyd!

Bruce B · Oct 17, 2013

microstrip said:
Thanks.

One more detail about the RMAF tapes - what was the RIAA phono unit used in the transcription to DSD of the Take the A Train recording?

EMM Labs ADC8 IV into a Sonoma

MylesBAstor · Oct 17, 2013

whart said:
I find piano to be the most difficult to reproduce convincingly (aside from the explosive quality of kickdrum, which has more to do with the limitations of my system than anything else). The piano is tough, not just because of its expansive reach from low to high, compared to most other instruments, but because of the complexity of the instrument itself- the action, the harmonic overtones, the changes in timbre and harmonics as you ascend the scale. From what I gather, it is also one of the most difficult instruments to record effectively. And, given how it is tuned and voiced, dramatic differences in sound quality can result from the same piano, depending on what has been done to it by the person 'preparing' it.
I used to have a big Bosendorfer in our living room - the thing needed attention every couple weeks to sound right- it wasn't fragile, but very susceptible to changes in humidity. Capturing all of the various 'things' going on, from how the key is struck, to how much resonance the body of the piano has, to all the harmonic overtones, to the playing of additional notes while the harmonics are still decaying on earlier notes, makes considerable demands on a reproducing system- we should probably have a thread just on good recordings of piano for reference.
Hi Floyd!

Seems some pianos like the Bosendorfer and Bechstein pianos are very sensitive to humidity

Priaptor · Oct 18, 2013

caesar said:
Priaptor,

Wow! Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you mind starting another thread taking us through the experience and the differences between the speakers?

Thanks.

These speakers contain the NOLA signature, so if you don't like his open baffle design I doubt you will be parting with the kind of $ to get what he has to offer.

They are replacing my Baby Grand Reference Series II and are Carl's latest Concert Grand Golds. Right now, I am just finding the right location, and feel I am close, burning them in and now have about 40 hours on them and can tell you the difference between install and 40 hours is pretty startling. If you have never owned a Nola, IMO, they are VERY special. I have owned many different speakers in my life, including Avalons, ProAc, Celestion, Wilsons (Watt/Puppy/Whow and then X1), Magicos (Q1s) and a host of others. Of course in the end it is one's preference, but my preference is a speaker like the NOLA. It is simple to setup, sounds great just about anywhere you place them and have a huge sweet spot and are incredibly accurate and engaging.

I was very skeptical about the ability of the "lowly" REF75 Carl recommends with the Concert Grands (and he has taken some **** for having the "audacity for showing his flagship with such a measly amp) being able to drive these as I have been using the REF250s on the Baby Grands and found the 250s better on the Baby Grands. Well he is right and I will be replacing my REF250s with the REF75. I use a REF10 on my front end. For those, as I read earlier in this thread, that think "real bass" can't be produced from "a 160 watt tube amp" I recommend them listen to the Concerts with the measly REF75. The bass is pretty incredible and very accurate.

I will end by saying those lucky enough to be able to afford a speaker of this nature, there are a handful of speakers to choose from at this price and most who do so, are committing pretty much to a speaker that they will most likely never replace (unless you have the kind of bucks that is foreign to me) and this was my choice. I cast no aspersions on Wilson, Magico, Rockport, etc. To each his own, but I really like the NOLA approach and the ease of setup and the non-fatiguing listening experience. NOLAs are speakers you can listen to for hours and never fell stressed and always feel totally engaged.

caesar · Oct 18, 2013

Elliot G. said:
if the writers on these pages took a view that this is just a touch of what the gear is capable of rather than ripping the crap out of the products I might be able to agree with you. If you read just this one thread there are those that say that the Scaena was "magical" and then it was crap four posts later. There are those that say the Alexia's were killer and then they weren't. The blah blah room was amazing and then it wasn't. This is just in my opinion funny. I have done shows, been to too many and been a retail dealer for over 40 years. I have worked and founded Audio Den on LI, worked for a long time at Lyric Hi Fi in NYC ( considered at the time I was there as the best HE store in the world), opened and run Front Row Center in Florida for 20 years and now at Audio Advisors in Palm Beach. In that time I have been to many many manufacturers factories, listening rooms and homes. I have installed and set up too many systems to remember, I have listened to the systems of quite a few reviewers and I could go on for ever.
I have never and I repeat never ever heard any system at a show that could come close to a properly set up system in someone's listening room. Having said that this is a very small number of people that have taken the time and effort to make it work. Its not about just spending insane dollars because some of these were reasonably priced gear.
Set up and a proper environment is IMHO the MOST important factor in getting a great musical experience,

My best and latest example
As Steve knows I was never really sold on the Wilson speakers until a few months ago I had the opportunity to go to the transparent facilities outside Portland Maine.I have known Karen and Jack and Brad who works for them for many years. I know what they had and what they used however I was not expecting to hear what I heard. It was one of the most moving experiences I have had in my life. I expected great sound when I was in the TAS HP listening circle and Harry has at many time blown me away. This was very unexpected what happened and Transparent. I have been told numerous times about how great someone's system was only to be terribly disappointed. I want to explain here that I am not talking about an opinion of whether this was better then that blah blah blah but rather did the system sound good, coherent, fast , live open and generally make me forget if even for a second that I was listening to one.
I believe there is a lot of great stuff being made today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are many talented people working really hard to achieve these goals and the ones that have done the work, invested in a good listening space and lastly in good gear get great results.
My point is the same at a show all you can get is a mediocre taste of whats possible.
Take that and use that as a starting point not a point to make ABSOLUTE judgements.
The overwhelming majority of audiophiles now WAY more than me and tell me that every day.
There system is amazing and the BEST in the world
Only they know what is good and they have to validate their purchase by quoting others opinions BUT only when it validates theirs
This is not a competitive activity in my mind. I love music, all kinds of music,and if your system can move me, involve me and make me feel something then I am thrilled.
The rest of this is BULLSHIT

Warmest Regards
E

Elliot,

I don't think you and I are not that far apart. I don't think anyone here believes that a show will bring out the full potential gear, except in a very few exceptional situations. But my point is more fundamental than that. It is about personal preferences.

Take a speaker that has been voiced to highlight the upper midrange and lower treble yet lacks soundstaging and bass response of what you are used to. You can set it up all you want, add all kinds of subwoofers, and expensive/ exotic tweaks, but it's not going to mask the problem you personally have with the presentation and the music unfortunately will not flow to your heart. Likewise if you prefer solid solid state amps to smaller tube amps on power hungry speakers, or vinyl/ digital, etc.

Additionally, people know what they like at the moment, and it's always changing. Along with that, the products are also always changing. It's kind of getting that gorgeous Japanese desert. You take a bite into that little work of art, smile and thank them. But it's bean curd! So in disgust, you spit it out into a napkin when you are alone. A few years later, however, you are really hungry and get a similar desert, and it's more fruity and less "bean curdy", and you think not bad....

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