RMAF 2013: Gear worth making the trip to Denver to hear... And not!

[still-one]

He is also in the business of making things sounding as good as possible. If you want to be cynical and think that the driving force behind his comment was money, go ahead. I have spoken to RV many times over the years and his passion for sound is great enough for me to believe that his comments come from good intentions.

My response may have been unduly cynical but so was your initial post regarding whether manufacturers do or do not share our concerns for pairing their product with high priced cabling.

 

[dminches]

My response may have been unduly cynical but so was your initial post regarding whether manufacturers do or do not share our concerns for pairing their product with high priced cabling.

I didn't mean to be cynical at all. I probably overspend on cabling so if my comment sounded cynical towards consumers it was completely unintentional.

 

[garylkoh]

Why did you find his response interesting? He is in the business of selling speakers and I am sure his profit margin is greater on the more expensive speakers. I doubt that too many speaker manufacturers ask to have their products demo'd with bulk wire versus more expensive offerings.

Many people were surprised when I told them that the G7f ($12,000) would probably be the largest of the Genesis loudspeakers I would ever recommend in a room the size in which we were sitting. I wouldn't recommend any of my larger/more expensive speakers as they probably wouldn't have worked as well.

I told the audience that the G7c's (the pair Steve Williams listened to) cost less than the sales tax on the rest of the system, however, that showed how far the speakers could stretch to. Starting with a much cheaper turntable and electronics, I explained to a young couple that with the G7c's they are looking at a superb performing system at less than $10,000 with speakers that could last them for the next 20 years of their music hobby career.

Recommending a more expensive loudspeaker that would overwhelm the room is not in my modus operandi - no matter how expensive the rest of the components. My "cheap" speakers are not trickle-down, dumbed-down technology. We use the same tweeter and crossover components as the top-of-the-line, and I put the same heart and soul into the development.

 

[microstrip]

I think he felt that his "better" speakers with radio shack lamp cord as speaker cables would sound better than the "lesser" speakers with expensive wiring.

Just to stress again that we are debating hypothetical extreme situations, both unreasonable in usual contexts. This is no way an endorsement to use cheap cables, but may be considered a warning to avoid using disproportionately expensive cables.

 

[Bill Hart]

I think we also have a preconceived bias toward the sound we already have at home, assuming that, among most of the posters here, they have fairly advanced on the gear front and gotten a sound they like. I used to do these long listening sessions at a friend's (Myles knew him), who had a large, then SOTA system. It kicked ass in certain ways (a stand-up acoustic bass had the right size in space), but there was something about my far more modest system at the time (old Quads) that I missed and always enjoyed coming home to.
On the snarky front, Myles, do you remember those NY audio club meetings? Some manufacturer would bring the latest and greatest to showcase, and the peanut gallery was always making very funny comments about how badly the thing sounded.
Ah, the good old days, when cable only cost 10 grand for the whole system loom.

 

[Gregadd]

I have attended shows where it appeared the the exhibitor had given up on getting good sound. The room would be quiet and they were far more interested, in talking. That;why I prefer to say they had a disappointing Few have the courage to do what Gary did . Compare the system to live music.presentation rather than say the product "sucks,:

 

[microstrip]

Many people were surprised when I told them that the G7f ($12,000) would probably be the largest of the Genesis loudspeakers I would ever recommend in a room the size in which we were sitting. I wouldn't recommend any of my larger/more expensive speakers as they probably wouldn't have worked as well.

I told the audience that the G7c's (the pair Steve Williams listened to) cost less than the sales tax on the rest of the system, however, that showed how far the speakers could stretch to. Starting with a much cheaper turntable and electronics, I explained to a young couple that with the G7c's they are looking at a superb performing system at less than $10,000 with speakers that could last them for the next 20 years of their music hobby career.

Recommending a more expensive loudspeaker that would overwhelm the room is not in my modus operandi - no matter how expensive the rest of the components. My "cheap" speakers are not trickle-down, dumbed-down technology. We use the same tweeter and crossover components as the top-of-the-line, and I put the same heart and soul into the development.

Gary,

You are opening the gate of one of the most challenging and obscure subjects in high-end - why and how does a speaker overwhelm a room?
Although it is relatively easy to make speakers that disappear in a room, making the speakers and room disappear is much more difficult.

 

[rbbert]

I think he felt that his "better" speakers with radio shack lamp cord as speaker cables would sound better than the "lesser" speakers with expensive wiring.

I for another believe this is almost certainly true. I well remember how good the TAD Ref 1's sounded driven by an inexpensive (~$3k IIRC) Peachtree integrated at RAMF 2012. I strongly suspect they would sound better than the CR1's with a $40k+ amp, but I may never find out for sure.

 

[puroagave]

Many people were surprised when I told them that the G7f ($12,000) would probably be the largest of the Genesis loudspeakers I would ever recommend in a room the size in which we were sitting. I wouldn't recommend any of my larger/more expensive speakers as they probably wouldn't have worked as well.

i heard your G5 at one of the newport shows in a relatively small room and thought they sounded great. it didnt hurt having burmester and oracle as partners with none other than Jacques Riendeau spinning vinyl and anne bison singing acapella with the system.

 

[puroagave]

Salient points. I think shows are useful to determine if an audition has merit in the first place- sort of a first cut so to speak, since the dealer network has dwindled so much.

thats how i view it.

you never hear mfrs credit the hotel room when they get 'best of show' but you hear the countless complaints about the room when the system sounds uneven or below par. i actually dont think a hotel room is a far cry from what the average audiophile has to work with at home. surfing forums and youtube you find many (most?) 'philes have gear setup against the wall sharing video duties, in cramped quarters with little to no room treatment.

 

[Bill Hart]

thats how i view it.

you never hear mfrs credit the hotel room when they get 'best of show' but you hear the countless complaints about the room when the system sounds uneven or below par. i actually dont think a hotel room is a far cry from what the average audiophile has to work with at home. surfing forums and youtube you find many (most?) 'philes have gear setup against the wall sharing video duties, in cramped quarters with little to no room treatment.

Fair enough, Puro, but I am assuming that the folks chiming in here* who attended the show (I didn't) are taking more care with room and set-up, no?

*Not talking about the vendors but the attendees.

 

[garylkoh]

i heard your G5 at one of the newport shows in a relatively small room and thought they sounded great. it didnt hurt having burmester and oracle as partners with none other than Jacques Riendeau spinning vinyl and anne bison singing acapella with the system.

That was a very special show - with both Jacques and Anne being there. I wish that I had the chance to be there too, but I was laid flat on my back in Nice, France as I threw my back out moving a pair of Dragons.

IIRC, the Newport rooms are nearly 2 ft wider and deeper than the rooms in RMAF.

The rooms in The Venetian for CES are almost twice the volume of the rooms in RMAF - and that's how we managed to shoehorn a pair of G2Jrs into them this year.

 

[Frank750]

At this years Axpona show in Chicago, a local dealer had one of the first floor meeting rooms for a system consisting of the Focal Grande Utopia EM driven by Pass Labs XS300, XP30 Preamp, XP25 Phono Pre, Clearaudio Master Reference Table and all Kubala Sosna Elation cabling. About $400K worth of equipment? They spent a lot of time trying to fine tune the system, not only the dealer but reps from the distributor and manufacturers. I was shocked how bad the system sounded. I went back and listened to it over the course of 3 days and not once did it sound even remotely musical. The room was packed at all times. No matter the music being played, the system wasn't close to reaching it's potential. I don't know how you could have listened to that system in that room and come away thinking you needed to audition any of the components involved. I felt very badly for the dealer who I know well.

 

[garylkoh]

Gary,

You are opening the gate of one of the most challenging and obscure subjects in high-end - why and how does a speaker overwhelm a room?
Although it is relatively easy to make speakers that disappear in a room, making the speakers and room disappear is much more difficult.

Other loudspeaker designers may have different ideas, but I like the room and the speaker to disappear. There are three factors I consider: Are you sitting far enough away for the individual transducers in the speaker to coalesce so that someone standing in front of the speaker doesn't cast a sonic shadow; are you far enough away from the sidewalls for the dipole to be effective so that the side-wall reflection doesn't confuse the soundstage and imaging; and do we have enough air volume in the room for the size and excursion of woofer to work effectively.

 

[caesar]

I find all of this so much fun to read since it only totally reinforces my premise that shows suck for sound. It seems every year at every show people want to pontificate on the sound of a ton of gear set up in a hotel room ( yes a hotel room with bad acoustics, bad electricity , crappy walls etc.) and argue over what sounds like real music.
I think we should next year take INDY cars are put them in an IKEA parking lot on a sale day and discuss the acceleration and handling ability.
Its a show guys, limited access time, poor and risky rooms. limited electricity and a tremendous amount of stress. If you make your determinations of the ultimate quality of gear like this then "let the buyer beware!"

Eliot,
Seems like we have this discussion every few months. Yes setup matters. Cables matter. Electricity matters. Demagnetizing your system matters. Even Little metal balls on the walls matter, a bit..... But what I think matters more is the sound you get used to. Let me quote Winston Churchill: " “First we shape our buildings, then they shape us.” But we shape our musical experiences and then they shape our references...

Unfortunately, I have visited Many dealers who told me they had great systems. But when I listened to them, it was just blaahh. Sure I was able to figure out the sonic signature of the gear to determine if I liked that sound, but the systems were not super. Not super to me, that is, but apparently great to them.

Not too long ago, our own fearless leader, Steve Williams along with a highly esteemed WBF member, Marty, took a flight to hear the then new Aida and Wilson XLF. Apparently, the dealer had an awful room. So although they did not find musical bliss, they got a pretty good sense of the silk dome tweeter and the "newer" sonus faber sound.

The reality is that if a system has a realism trigger that moves your emotions, the system does not need to be set up perfectly. I don’t think anyone is rich or crazy enough just to buy based on a single show or dealer audition. If something peaks the interest, people listen several times, perform multiple auditions, read up on reviews and seek opinions of others. If something is God Awful, it’s just too bad. Seeking perfection will leave us all just seeking all the time....

And I’m not talking about little nuances in sound, here. I'm talking more about the big picture, the higher “sense of life" things, a la Peggy Noonan or Maureen Dowd. Coming back to the systems under discussion here, I don't think a 160 watt per channel tube system driving Alexia's can have real sounding bass, especially without subwoofers. That’s reality, not a show setup issue. Although the dishy system sounded good, it was good in an audiophile way, but not in a real way. I guess everyone has their "creative sovereignty". What each individual does with their little voice that's talking to them and motivating them in their head is their own business. Unfortunately, there was nothing particularly unique or visionary about that system, unlike what Dr. Von schweikert is trying to do or what was attempted by the bigger Wilson system.


With the alexia and superb source material I think it could have been a lot better. Although I consider alexia a super- middleweight, I have heard it sound like a light heavyweight and occasionally like a cruiser weight, with subs. IMHO, just about any musical tube gear such as cj, vac, arc, bat, etc. (not VTL, unfortunately) could have created a similar sound. There was nothing remarkable about that room, per se. If Doshi is an up and coming designer he should strive to better the status quo. Sure he appealed to many audiophiles, and if that's his target market, it's great. But to me that's unremarkable. Changing the way people view something fundamentally is usually a primal calling, and unfortunately Doshi did not even attempt to be different. Sure his gear could replace that of the current generation of designers when they die off (unless they sell, like ARC), but right now it's just another brand of soup on the grocery store shelf.

Now I realize that Myles, Steve, MEP, and others LOVED the system. And if they were moved, that's truly wonderful. So again, let's keep the Shakespeare quote - from non other than "As you like it" - in mind: “Oh! how bitter a thing it is to look into happiness through another man's eyes.”

 

[caesar]

Caesar,
Bass weak is a dangerous and ambiguous epithet - can you clarify what you mean with it?

IMHO. Reproducing a drum with a live impact is a major challenge to audio systems. It, along with dynamics is what keeps them from sounding "real".

Most systems have poor driver integration. And unless you have a really large system, most drums sound like a 3 year old pitter- patter rather than an accomplished drummer, let alone a Keith Moon or a John Bonham. There is just not enough of the speed or impact of what real bass sounds like in a bar, a club or in the hall - such as when that bass drum is cracked. Using words, I am talking about how weight and scale are conveyed through the sections of the musical piece thanks to great bass. I’m also talking about bass in terms of deep, clean, and visceral. And great integration of the woofers / sub-woofers with the midrange and highs. Just imagine being there at a military band performance after you win the war...

Lack of further words is letting me down. As they say, writing about musical gear is like dancing about architecture.

 

[Bruce B]

I don't think what I heard in the Doshi room is too far removed from what I'm hearing in the studio.

 

[caesar]

Why pick on Nola? So he uses his standard reference cable for every show. This is how he shows his speaker. I happen to have just taken delivery of his new Concert Grand Reference Gold and don't use the 40K cabling he uses, but they have the Nola signature which is why people who like and/or love his speakers buy them. One could question why he ONLY used the cheapest and least powerful ARC REF amp in showing just as much as one could question his use of Odins. He does what he believes sounds best. In fact, he recommends the REF75 for his signature speakers, which I just took delivery on which in my setup is currently being driven by REF250s. However, I have been trying the REF75, an amp 1/3 the price and guess what, he is right. So if we are to criticize his decision for using uber expensive cabling in showing his middle of the road reference series, lets be equally critical for him using "cheap" electronics. I pose the question-when adding up the "cheap" amp he is using + the expensive cabling he is using, the net sum is probably similar to what others were showing in a 35K speaker.

In any case, from a marketing perspective, I do agree with you that most people are NOT going to spend 40K for cables for a 35K speaker. But to each his own and the reality is there is so much good stuff out there and preference and what works in one's room and IF the person maximizes what they have is ultimately the issue. If you can just sit and enjoy the music, that is what counts.

Priaptor,

Wow! Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you mind starting another thread taking us through the experience and the differences between the speakers?

 

[MylesBAstor]

Eliot,
Seems like we have this discussion every few months. Yes setup matters. Cables matter. Electricity matters. Demagnetizing your system matters. Even Little metal balls on the walls matter, a bit..... But what I think matters more is the sound you get used to. Let me quote Winston Churchill: " “First we shape our buildings, then they shape us.” But we shape our musical experiences and then they shape our references...

Unfortunately, I have visited Many dealers who told me they had great systems. But when I listened to them, it was just blaahh. Sure I was able to figure out the sonic signature of the gear to determine if I liked that sound, but the systems were not super. Not super to me, that is, but apparently great to them.

Not too long ago, our own fearless leader, Steve Williams along with a highly esteemed WBF member, Marty, took a flight to hear the then new Aida and Wilson XLF. Apparently, the dealer had an awful room. So although they did not find musical bliss, they got a pretty good sense of the silk dome tweeter and the "newer" sonus faber sound.

The reality is that if a system has a realism trigger that moves your emotions, the system does not need to be set up perfectly. I don’t think anyone is rich or crazy enough just to buy based on a single show or dealer audition. If something peaks the interest, people listen several times, perform multiple auditions, read up on reviews and seek opinions of others. If something is God Awful, it’s just too bad. Seeking perfection will leave us all just seeking all the time....

And I’m not talking about little nuances in sound, here. I'm talking more about the big picture, the higher “sense of life" things, a la Peggy Noonan or Maureen Dowd. Coming back to the systems under discussion here, I don't think a 160 watt per channel tube system driving Alexia's can have real sounding bass, especially without subwoofers. That’s reality, not a show setup issue. Although the dishy system sounded good, it was good in an audiophile way, but not in a real way. I guess everyone has their "creative sovereignty". What each individual does with their little voice that's talking to them and motivating them in their head is their own business. Unfortunately, there was nothing particularly unique or visionary about that system, unlike what Dr. Von schweikert is trying to do or what was attempted by the bigger Wilson system.


With the alexia and superb source material I think it could have been a lot better. Although I consider alexia a super- middleweight, I have heard it sound like a light heavyweight and occasionally like a cruiser weight, with subs. IMHO, just about any musical tube gear such as cj, vac, arc, bat, etc. (not VTL, unfortunately) could have created a similar sound. There was nothing remarkable about that room, per se. If Doshi is an up and coming designer he should strive to better the status quo. Sure he appealed to many audiophiles, and if that's his target market, it's great. But to me that's unremarkable. Changing the way people view something fundamentally is usually a primal calling, and unfortunately Doshi did not even attempt to be different. Sure his gear could replace that of the current generation of designers when they die off (unless they sell, like ARC), but right now it's just another brand of soup on the grocery store shelf.

Now I realize that Myles, Steve, MEP, and others LOVED the system. And if they were moved, that's truly wonderful. So again, let's keep the Shakespeare quote - from non other than "As you like it" - in mind: “Oh! how bitter a thing it is to look into happiness through another man's eyes.”

I've had a number of phono stages here (including cj) and the Doshi is the best I've had in my system. I'm curious though. What other market could Doshi appeal to? That is markets other than what cj, ARC, etc.

And moved? Well MEP heard the Lou Reed on the Alexia's and immediately went down the hall to buy the album. Most were also pretty amazed by the Mercury/Fettler and Jonas Hallenborg Elegant Punk too. BTW, what software did you bring to evaluate the system?

What amazes me is more don't give credit to the Koetsu Azule cartridge that Larry brought along.

That said, there's obviously some things that my electrostats do that even the Alexias (and other speakers price be damned), simply just don't touch. The stats just get another level of resolution, microdynamics, sense of space and transparency that I don't hear in but a few speakers.

But it never ceases to amaze me that people expect a SOTA speaker to perform at its best in a hotel room. Hey if it does, it's more an accident than good planning. Thst's why at a show if something sounds good it's worth investigating. Yet at the same time, it doesn't mean a whole lot if something sounds bad either.

 

[KeithR]

It is most definitely a crap shoot.

Every manufacturer is trying to differentiate himself somehow whether it is actually a conscious decision or not. Survival demands it. With neutrality and transparency the trend, where we hear more and more of the bad along with the good, this makes things all the more a crap shoot. I envy the guys who sell the audio equivalent of comfort food to be quite honest. Sweet and warm is pretty hard to screw up. Serve up a big plate of safe, pleasing coloration and you're golden.

That's a good point, Jack. Transparency has increased. I remember a few years back folks raved about Cary 805s with big Tannoys--Pink Floyd had apparently never sounded so good! However, when I strolled over it was clearly obvious the sound overly euphonic and not close to neutral on my music. Folks just didn't mind the coloration I guess.