MMMicroOne vs. KEF LS50

Another way of adressing the suggested problem is to eliminate it in the first place , it saves a lot on cables and audiofile "" tuning """ devices .
The words merry go round spring to mind , sorry for the non orthodox approach

andromedaaudio said:

Another way of adressing the suggested problem is to eliminate it in the first place , it saves a lot on cables and audiofile "" tuning """ devices .
The words merry go round spring to mind , sorry for the non orthodox approach

Click to expand...

We have to understand that all audio designs are a balance of many factors, and most of the time they are correlated. The so called "ringing" - I have hosted X2 for a few weeks and write the term between commas because I think the term does not address properly the tweeter treble characteristic - is associated to several other good aspects of the tweeter that make the X2 in the whole a great speaker. If you just suppressed or changed it , most probably it would unbalance the speaker in a way we can not foresee. It is why you can not migrate the tweeter of the XLF to the X2 just making a few mods in the crossover. I hope Steve will come back on this subject.

microstrip said:

A judicious choice of electronics, cables and room can reduce the "ringing" to a point it is not audible. It is probably what is happening in your system. Some people call it synergy and fine tuning.

Click to expand...

Like I said, I don't hear it so I can save some time and a lot of money by not having to change cables and electronics .

I did hear the X 2 and i definetively liked it, like all the big wilsons , the xlf will probably be a bit easier on the ear over time .
a tweeter is only a (small ) part of the package anyway .

It is why you can not migrate the tweeter of the XLF to the X2 just making a few mods in the crossover. I hope Steve will come back on this subject.

Click to expand...

sadly there is no upgrade path for the X2 Series ll and it is a different crossover for the XLF and the upper modules are a different size than on the X2

Grrrrrrrhhh. I love that silk dome tweeter in the XLF and Alexia

Most metal domes whether inverted or non inverted brake up around 20 khz , the focal dome tweeter wilson uses supposedly before that , the newer type berylium domes break up further in the audioband .
I assume audiofile ringing is the breaking up of the diagphram whether you hear it or not .
modern soft domes break up further in the audioband and when they do its less drastic

Why don't we get back on topic to this thread and if interested why don't you start a thread on tweeter ringing.

yep sorry back on topic , i ve said pretty much i want to say about it already .

devert said:

You can see the peak in the Maxx 3's inverted titanium dome tweeter(blue trace) verses the XLF's dome tweeter (red trace) in these Stereophile measurements taken in MF's listening room.
View attachment 10296

Here's Martin Colloms measurements of the Magico Q1, which show an on axis peak, but it's at a higher frequency and probably harder to hear.

View attachment 10297

The KEF LS50's top end (red trace) seems very smooth:

View attachment 10298

I never seen any measurements for the EA speakers.

Click to expand...

Thanks for supplying those graphs Devert. They are very interesting. I seem to remember that Marin Colloms had a photo of his room in that review of the Q1. The entire back wall was a plane of glass and it seemed completely untreated. There was also no carpet over the bare floors. I wonder how much room treatment and rooms in general effect this issue of tweeter ringing.

Yes, the KEF trace does seem very smooth. I heard these KEFs at the recent NYC show but here were always too many people talking and the other KEF system playing to really hear the LS50's. It was a shame, but those in charge did not seem to want to demonstrate the speaker during my visits to the room.

The MMMOne keeps going up in price and I think it is now about twice as expensive as the LS50. I would like to hear them.

Hi
Here I have to go again defending Wilson
The highs of the X-2are far from the best I have heard, those from the Magnepan runs circle around it ... Those from Magico too, The Esotar is another tweeter that is spectacular to these ears and so far nothing touches the incredible purity of the ionic tweeter on the Acapella... But the tweeter on the X-2 complements very well the character of the speaker. The darn thing sound as cut from one cloth ... IOW from top to bottom there is not an apparent discontinuity in the "character" of the drivers. The speaker sound like one big driver .. No high, no lows just good sound provided good set-up , good room etc ... In my book what I hear from the X-2 is not ringing , it is an incredibly good speaker with obvious limitations in the way its upper treble is reproduced ...
From the Q3, i hear an incredibly pure sound with the lack of overhang one associate with the best ESL .. and that everywhere from 40 Hz to however high my ears can hear ... the sound of the speaker is spooky-clean ... Bass is good but lacks the last word in power and believability, Present, very much so and with but .. could be better.. Does this speaker ring? No it doesn’t.. Does it sound hard? .. No it doesn't .. it is however a "just the facts ma'am " transducer .. If you need some spice added to your sound look elsewhere ... Forgiveness is definitely absent from its lexicon.. It is there it is shown. High on my list.
Our biases work in strange ways. Soft dome made of soft material are thought to be “soft” sounding and metal dome are as a corollary thought to be hard sounding .. There could be some truth to that as metal may ring at some audible frequencies. This is usually well tamed and some tweeter only exhibit ringing at frequencies the poor audiophile ears (usually of middle-age or above) can’t perceive … let’s leave it at that … So a metal enclosure construction is thought to sound “hard” and metallic .. A mylar membrane, once this is known, ( a very important caveat) is thought and likely forces the perception of the famous “plastic” coloration… I know for a fact that most audiophile think of anything with silver in it to sound somewhat “whitish” whereas a more reddish metal would impart more “warmth” … a nice warm finish makes for a warm speaker …
Now back to the speakers at hand the LS 50 and the MMicro. I would love to compare those two but kef is a very large speaker company with a past in making speakers and they likely can make speakers more cheaply than most High End Audio company. What I am trying to say is that if a High End Audio company was to make the make the LS50 it could cost them much more to produce it. The LS 50 seems to pack so much technology and performance that it challenges many speakers costing several times its price … That includes speakers in the 10K and above range. It is not the only speakers that can do that but it is one of the few that can in a small, living-room-friendly package. Moreover it seems to be so well-balanced as to present most of the music (some bass and dynamics included) in spite of the petite package. An uncommon achievement. I love for example the Magnepan MG 1.7 but do try to put it in a normal living room… Planar speakers require their very own real estates. A good way off the wall and a room to breathe … Is the MMicro that good? I don’t know, only listening will tell. I would not assume the EA MM to be better because it cost almost three times more.

Steve Williams said:

Like I said, I don't hear it so I can save some time and a lot of money by not having to change cables and electronics .

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but Nordost should send you some Valhalla 2 to listen. We are waiting for your opinion!

PeterA said:

Thanks for supplying those graphs Devert. They are very interesting. I seem to remember that Marin Colloms had a photo of his room in that review of the Q1. The entire back wall was a plane of glass and it seemed completely untreated. There was also no carpet over the bare floors. I wonder how much room treatment and rooms in general effect this issue of tweeter ringing.

Yes, the KEF trace does seem very smooth. I heard these KEFs at the recent NYC show but here were always too many people talking and the other KEF system playing to really hear the LS50's. It was a shame, but those in charge did not seem to want to demonstrate the speaker during my visits to the room.

The MMMOne keeps going up in price and I think it is now about twice as expensive as the LS50. I would like to hear them.

Click to expand...

Here's the picture of MC's room with Q1s (the black tape shows where he had his WA S3s placed):



In the HiFi News review of the Q3, their measurements shows a similar peak in the high end:

http://www.bm.rs/Magico/Magico Q3 HiFi News August 2011.pdf

I'd also love to hear the MMMOnes, but it's not very likely where I live.

devert said:

Here's the picture of MC's room with Q1s (the black tape shows where he had his WA S3s placed):

View attachment 10300

In the HiFi News review of the Q3, their measurements shows a similar peak in the high end:

http://www.bm.rs/Magico/Magico Q3 HiFi News August 2011.pdf

I'd also love to hear the MMMOnes, but it's not very likely where I live.

Click to expand...

I find all reviews of the Q series very interesting in that they are a case of the horse leading the cart. Magico
puts their inert cabinet technology front and center. Consequently, all the reviews I have read, save for maybe Valin's
Q5 review, focus most of the review on not being able to hear the cabinet. Fremer, Colloms, HiFi News..ALL of them
make that the center of the review.

Magico 's ad campaigns, PR releases, and marketing literature have definitely had an effect.

Nothing nefarious going on here..just human nature.

devert said:

Here's the picture of MC's room with Q1s (the black tape shows where he had his WA S3s placed):

View attachment 10300

In the HiFi News review of the Q3, their measurements shows a similar peak in the high end:

http://www.bm.rs/Magico/Magico Q3 HiFi News August 2011.pdf

I'd also love to hear the MMMOnes, but it's not very likely where I live.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the photo. I was mistaken about the carpets on the floor and those louvered blinds.

PeterA said:

Thanks for the photo. I was mistaken about the carpets on the floor and those louvered blinds.

Click to expand...

Amazing that MC would listen in a non-treated room with huge walls of glass behind the speakers! Perhaps topic for another thread, BUT one really has to understand the reviewer's frame of reference and perhaps more importantly the room that he is reviewing equipment in, before one can assimilate one's views to said reviewer's taste, IMO.

BTW, as to my hearing the "ringing" in the Wilson speaker's that utilize the Focal domes...well all I can say is that this is nothing new for me; however, let's put this in context, IMHO the Alex 2's are a great speaker, BUT and unless you compare the two side by side, the Alexia's and probably the XLF's ( which I have NOT heard) are superior in their high frequency reproduction. This is all a little relevant, because I'm sure I would MUCH prefer the tweeter in the Alex 2's to say a soft dome or wizzer cone that would typically be used in a Bose product. Like Andre said above, all speakers ( and for that matter all gear) have some failing or other. I'm fairly certain that there are superior tweeters to the silk dome that Wilson now uses and that there will be tweeters in the future that will make all of what we currently hold in high esteem, seem lacking.

I do agree with Andre's statement that speaker design is NOT just science, but Art is involved as well. Then of course you throw in the biases and expectations of the listening public, and you have a recipe for multiple opinions.

Probably all good..

Andre Marc said:

I find all reviews of the Q series very interesting in that they are a case of the horse leading the cart. Magico
puts their inert cabinet technology front and center. Consequently, all the reviews I have read, save for maybe Valin's
Q5 review, focus most of the review on not being able to hear the cabinet. Fremer, Colloms, HiFi News..ALL of them
make that the center of the review.

Magico 's ad campaigns, PR releases, and marketing literature have definitely had an effect.

Nothing nefarious going on here..just human nature.

Click to expand...

Or may be they mention because...erm... you can't really hear the cabinet?
Not saying the marketing isn't an effective tool... But perhaps, in this case, marketing is just putting emphasis on a product's distinct advantage?
I believe Harley's Q7 review mentioned a whole lot about the drivers, not only the enclosure.


alexandre

asiufy said:

Or may be they mention because...erm... you can't really hear the cabinet?
Not saying the marketing isn't an effective tool... But perhaps, in this case, marketing is just putting emphasis on a product's distinct advantage?
I believe Harley's Q7 review mentioned a whole lot about the drivers, not only the enclosure.


alexandre

Click to expand...

Of course, the Q series has other virtues..but the cabinet design is front and center.

I still think these reviews feel like they were obligated to marvel at the inertness

You say it is an advantage, those who design and make thin walled or controlled resonance speakers
say it is a disadvantage.

Diversity is good.

Andre Marc said:

Of course, the Q series has other virtues..but the cabinet design is front and center.

I still think these reviews feel like they were obligated to marvel at the inertness

You say it is an advantage, those who design and make thin walled or controlled resonance speakers
say it is a disadvantage.

Diversity is good.

Click to expand...

MC makes it clear early in his Q1 review that "My task is to see whether Magico can justify such a handsome investment."

Yes, he talks about the cabinet and the drivers, but he spends more time discussing the sound and lab results.

It's interesting to compare this review to his review of the WA S3s.

Are there any MMMicroOne reviews out there besides the short capsules from audio shows? I would like to read a serious, long term review, perhaps even comparing it to some of the other small, stand mount speakers.