This is a horrible crime....

MylesBAstor

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es347

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Desperate people do desperate things and there will always be someone like the good doctor there to exploit them..
 

Keith_W

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I call this a good start. There is no shortage of quacks who claim to cure cancer. Or quacks in general. It would be nice to see them throw every chiropractor, naturopath, iridologist, etc. in jail for fraud, but that's not going to happen.
 

MylesBAstor

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I call this a good start. There is no shortage of quacks who claim to cure cancer. Or quacks in general. It would be nice to see them throw every chiropractor, naturopath, iridologist, etc. in jail for fraud, but that's not going to happen.

First of all, there's lots of complementary medicine practiced at Medical centers; at Columbia, there is a whole separate department. The issue is more people not undergoing the normal therapy and going solely with some quack herbal treatment. Then again, what do you do when someone presents with a terminal diagnosis and standard therapy is basically useless (take a GBIV or pancreatic cancer for instance?).

Second, you're absolutely wrong about chiropractors. Not only aren't all chiropractors the same but making a sweeping generalization like that is like me saying all docs are quacks. There are good ones and bad ones in EVERY profession. Do you thing that we know everything about our the human body? If you do, then you're absolutely dead wrong. Take anatomy, a discipline that many until recently considered a dead science. Newly developed techniques in doing dissection (google Anatomy Trains and Thomas Myers for instance, a student of Ida Rolf) now show that we're completely connected from stem to stern and rather than thinking of the body as a bunch of muscles attached to bones, they've shown that basically it's all about the connective tissue (including synthesis and repair, direction and pull eg. biomechanics), gradations in thickening of connective tissue and muscle encapsulated in connective that gives our body structure and function.This has revolutionized the way we look at the body and for example, athletic training. And yes, along the way, I've observed and experienced some techniques and some extremely mystifying results.
 

Keith_W

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Second, you're absolutely wrong about chiropractors.

Really, Myles? Saying that all astrologers are scam artists is not a sweeping statement, because there is no such thing as a "good" or a "bad" astrologist. The reason you can make this statement is because the entire foundation of astrology and fortune telling is based on a fabrication. In the case of chiropractors, it is subluxations and how realigning subluxations can cure diseases.

So, what the radiological correlation of a subluxation? Alas, there is none. Patients who are told that their spines are misaligned happen to have perfectly healthy spines when subjected to MRI or CT. No sign of nerve entrapment at all. Also, when we talk about REAL orthopaedic subluxations, where vertebral bodies actually move relative to each other, where are the so-called chiropractic effects? Why is it that chiropractors can no longer correct these subluxations nor prevent them? Where are the publications of chiropractors in academic medical journals defending their practice? Sorry Myles, ALL chiropractors are quacks, because the basis on which they form their practice is not founded on science but something more akin to religious belief. Just like astrologers.

Then let's not forget the large number of chiropractors who are skeptical about vaccinations, and many who do not even believe in germs. Let's not forget the people who have died after chiropractors told them to stop taking their epileptic medications or asthma medications because those are supposedly cured by manipulations. Let us remember the people who have had strokes after their necks were manipulated, thanks to vertebrobasilar artery dissection. Perhaps these are the black sheep whom you are seeking to excuse to give the rest of the profession a free pass, but the difference is that these discredited theories are actually taught in chiropractic courses. In contrast, quack doctors become quacks on their own accord. You won't find a single medical school teaching their students to be skeptical about vaccinations or germ theory - unlike chiropractic where these beliefs are institutionalized.
 
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MylesBAstor

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Really, Myles? Saying that all astrologers are scam artists is not a sweeping statement, because there is no such thing as a "good" or a "bad" astrologist. The reason you can make this statement is because the entire foundation of astrology and fortune telling is based on a fabrication. In the case of chiropractors, it is subluxations and how realigning subluxations can cure diseases.

So, what the radiological correlation of a subluxation? Alas, there is none. Patients who are told that their spines are misaligned happen to have perfectly healthy spines when subjected to MRI or CT. No sign of nerve entrapment at all. Also, when we talk about REAL orthopaedic subluxations, where vertebral bodies actually move relative to each other, where are the so-called chiropractic effects? Why is it that chiropractors can no longer correct these subluxations nor prevent them? Where are the publications of chiropractors in academic medical journals defending their practice? Sorry Myles, ALL chiropractors are quacks, because the basis on which they form their practice is not founded on science but something more akin to religious belief. Just like astrologers.

Then let's not forget the large number of chiropractors who are skeptical about vaccinations, and many who do not even believe in germs. Let's not forget the people who have died after chiropractors told them to stop taking their epileptic medications or asthma medications because those are supposedly cured by manipulations. Let us remember the people who have had strokes after their necks were manipulated, thanks to vertebrobasilar artery dissection. Perhaps these are the black sheep whom you are seeking to excuse to give the rest of the profession a free pass, but the difference is that these discredited theories are actually taught in chiropractic courses. In contrast, quack doctors become quacks on their own accord. You won't find a single medical school teaching their students to be skeptical about vaccinations or germ theory - unlike chiropractic where these beliefs are institutionalized.

Whatever. You obviously didn't read my post and are totally close minded. You really should LEARN what the best chiropractors do and it's not adjustments. Plus you can't get away from the fact that you wonderful doctors have failed miserably when it comes to back issues! FAILED. All you need to do is look at the surgical stats and outcomes (1/3 get better, 1/3 get no improvement and 1/3 are WORSE--not to mention the results seldom last for a prolonged period and patients are back in the clinic in a year or two). So you're [docs] are no better than the very chiropractors you criticize.

And if you think that an MRI --esp. done in a horizontal position tells you squat about a spine -- then you're hallucinating (and that goes for any joint-be it shoulder, etc. Surgeons often go in and find a whole lot more wrong than the MRI showed!). And that's a medical fact from real world medical practice, not some textbook.
 

Mosin

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Well, if you get a divorce, don't use a quack lawyer. He won't kill you, but he might make you wish you were dead. :D




P.S. Lighten up, guys.
 

Keith_W

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Whatever. You obviously didn't read my post and are totally close minded. You really should LEARN what the best chiropractors do and it's not adjustments.

What for? Do I need to learn about homeopathy to know that it is complete BS? (thanks to the guy who PM'ed me to remind me!) :) There is such a thing called the "God of the holes" argument. As science discovers more and more, proponents of mystic beliefs use the argument that science does not know everything and then start retreating into smaller and smaller holes. You have already tried this argument on me a couple of times in our brief exchange. Here are a few examples:

- "Do you thing that we know everything about our the human body?" - a classic example of the "God of the holes" argument. Of course we don't, but that does not mean that a quack profession built on incorrect and unscientific assumptions is true.

- "Plus you can't get away from the fact that you wonderful doctors have failed miserably when it comes to back issues! FAILED.". I should point out that failure of one method does not imply the correctness of the other. Yes, doctors aren't very good at treating back pain. But that does not legitimize the practice of chiropractors.

- "And if you think that an MRI --esp. done in a horizontal position tells you squat about a spine -- then you're hallucinating". Another "God of the holes" argument. Just because we do not currently have an imaging modality which allows us to perform imaging whilst the body is in motion, or even vertical, does not mean that chiropractic is correct. Indeed, one might even question how they built the basis of their practice without any imaging to guide them? Or indeed, that their so-called "science" is only being retrospectively discovered? Sounds a lot like religion to me - the conclusions come first, and then there is a desperate struggle to find "evidence" to support their beliefs.

I forgot to answer a couple of your points:

First of all, there's lots of complementary medicine practiced at Medical centers; at Columbia, there is a whole separate department.

Yes, this is true. There is also a "CAM course" (Complementary and Alternative Medicine) run in the University of Sydney by a former AMA president, Kerryn Phelps. I am personally aghast at this, and so are a large number of my colleagues. We should not be rubbing shoulders and lending legitimacy to people who argue against vaccinations, who do not believe that bacteria cause infections, or that HIV causes AIDS, who think that crystals in water cure disease, or people who advise against taking chemotherapy, or anticonvulsants, or psychiatric treatments. These quacks are similar to that practitioner in the OP - they take money, offer false hope, and cost lives. We should be condemning them in the strongest possible terms.

Then again, what do you do when someone presents with a terminal diagnosis and standard therapy is basically useless (take a GBIV or pancreatic cancer for instance?).

I am not sure what GBIV is? Do you mean GBS? GBM?

As for pancreatic cancer - you are right, standard therapy is useless. My uncle, right now, is dying from pancreatic cancer. What do you do? Well, you have no treatment to give. Nobody has any treatment to give. You do what you are supposed to - offer empathy, support, and kindness.
 

MylesBAstor

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You know Keith, those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. It's amazing how I can point out issues with every test you mentioned and then you try and obfuscate my point. Riddle me this paradox then if your the MRI is God's gift to medicine. How then is it possible for two people to have IDENTICAL back MRIs and yet one person is symptomatic and the other is asymptomatic. Ain't so perfect.

Medicine has more than it's share of skeletons in the closet ranging from leeches, the Tuskegee experiments, thalidomide, the children who developed secondary tumors from the multi-modality treatment for leukemia, VIOXX and the COX-2 inhibitors, refusing to heed warnings about HIV and test the blood supply and in the process killing off a generation of hemophiliac...and the list goes on.

Oh and the medical profession has become lazy and rather than fixing the problem, is more than happy to push pills and fatten the pockets of the pharma industry. How about every drug who come's with a list of warnings that is worse than the disease itself? How is it that nutrition, one thing in the prevention of disease, is no longer felt by the medical profession to be worth of teaching in medical school?

Oh and might I point out that the anti-vaccination agenda was started by a doctor in the UK who falsified his data and was forced to retract his findings? (And I'm for vaccinations--but I've NEVER heard any chiropractor bad mouth vaccinations. NEVER EVER.)
 

Phelonious Ponk

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What for? Do I need to learn about homeopathy to know that it is complete BS? (thanks to the guy who PM'ed me to remind me!) :) There is such a thing called the "God of the holes" argument. As science discovers more and more, proponents of mystic beliefs use the argument that science does not know everything and then start retreating into smaller and smaller holes.

Exactly how I feel about the argument that analog/valves/vinyl/(pick your musty audio technology) is superior to all things modern based on belief in some special ingredient as of yet unmeasurable and unknown, while what is measurable, detectible, unavoidable - audibly higher levels of distortion - is dismissed as insignificant.

P
 

Keith_W

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How then is it possible for two people to have IDENTICAL back MRIs and yet one person is symptomatic and the other is asymptomatic. Ain't so perfect.

Are you for real? Want to try to find me two people with identical spinal MRI's? :)

In any case, i'll ask you again. You seem to be arguing that no current imaging modality is able to detect the subluxations that chiropractors can apparently identify and correct. What then, is the basis of chiropractic if a supposedly anatomical subluxation can not be detected by any imaging modality? :) d

Medicine has more than it's share of skeletons in the closet ranging from leeches, the Tuskegee experiments, thalidomide, the children who developed secondary tumors from the multi-modality treatment for leukemia, VIOXX and the COX-2 inhibitors, refusing to heed warnings about HIV and test the blood supply and in the process killing off a generation of hemophiliac...and the list goes on.

There you go again, Myles. Medicine has made its fair share of mistakes, I will agree. But that does not make chiropractic a valid discipline. Why don't you argue a case FOR chiropractors, instead of demonstrating the mistakes of medicine as if that somehow validates the discredited quack medicine you are promoting? You are really making a non-sequitur argument.

Now, let's see. Leeches still play a part in modern medicine. So does thalidomide. As for treatment for leukemia, yes you can get secondary tumours. But would you rather die from a theoretical risk of secondary tumours 20 years down the track, or die from leukemia right now? You would be a bloody idiot to refuse chemo from leukemia because acute leukemia will kill you within a week or two. As for VIOXX, it was medicine itself that found the cardiovascular risk. Not chiropractors!

Oh and might I point out that the anti-vaccination agenda was started by a doctor in the UK who falsified his data and was forced to retract his findings? (And I'm for vaccinations--but I've NEVER heard any chiropractor bad mouth vaccinations. NEVER EVER.)

Open your bloody eyes, Myles.

http://reasonablehank.com/2013/04/1...tralia-the-compulsion-of-anti-vaccinationism/

https://theconversation.com/having-a-crack-what-do-chiropractors-know-about-vaccinations-2943

http://www.news.com.au/national-new...cination-message/story-e6frfkvr-1226102836863

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...l-community-angered-over-chiropractor/2932652

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/105/4/e43.full

http://peterbowditch.com/wp/2012/12/chiropractic-quackery-to-the-core/
 

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