I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!

[DaveyF]

While the correct tracking force for any particular cartridge should not damage the groove, assuming that there is no mistracking, IME a far more damaging aspect is the actual design of the diamond. This becomes evident ONLY upon play with a different stylus shape that is able to sit in the wall at a different angle. Some of the old elliptical/conical shapes are seemingly fine while playing ...unfortunately only when a more modern shape is utilized is the damage then evident...and the sound is clearly distorted on the record at that point!
It might be good to remember that there is always a certain cutting aspect to the shape of the stylus in the groove...even though this is very minimal...we usually call this record wear. Through extended plays, the more the groove is in fact damaged...even under the best of circumstances....
Personally, this is a reason why I like to keep multiple copies of the albums that I listen to the most. My preferred play copy and my reserve, for maximum SQ.
Would i use one of the older stylus shapes on my better vinyl...again personally, NO.

 

[rockitman]

Hi Christian,

You answer this emphatically - please could you cite your data source for further reading my end. It would be entirely intuitive that other things being equal tracking at double the weight will wear out your vinyl faster.

I have spoken to someone at length on this subject who I consider a vinyl guru - he take similar view to me. Will ask him to chime in.

I used to have your concerns. I don't have any published data other than listening to other's experiences in this regard. Will there be a wear difference on an LP after 500 plays with a 2 gram vs 4 gram tracking weight ? Intuitively one would think there would be less wear on the 2 gram tracking weight. Will I spin an LP 500 times before I am in a pine box ? Unlikely. Vinyl play is spread over many carts at my home. Only a very few track at this weight and it is usually a good while before that record would come up for play again and on that particular cart. I find a very pleasing, non hi fi, natural sound with these vintage MC's having built in transformers.

 

[DaveyF]

To add to what I said above, there is another factor here. The older the cartridge, the more wear on the stylus. Which is why I NEVER buy used cartridges...for the simple reason that I have no idea as to what the shape and correct wear pattern should be on the particular diamond ( DO YOU??) With the diamond shape distorted and therefore worn, I am immediately damaging the groove of the LP. One play is enough to do this!!
A conical shape or an elliptical shape will sit in the groove wall in a different way than the more recent Micro Ridge, Line Contact, Replicant, Shibata type shapes. The damaged conical or elliptical will score the walls in ways that these later shapes will easily pick up...as distortion. Something to consider?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I used to have your concerns. I don't have any published data other than listening to other's experiences in this regard. Will there be a wear difference on an LP after 500 plays with a 2 gram vs 4 gram tracking weight ? Intuitively one would think there would be less wear on the 2 gram tracking weight. Will I spin an LP 500 times before I am in a pine box ? Unlikely. Vinyl play is spread over many carts at my home. Only a very few track at this weight and it is usually a good while before that record would come up for play again and on that particular cart. I find a very pleasing, non hi fi, natural sound with these vintage MC's having built in transformers.

Fair enough - enjoy yourself Christian. Ever played around with vintage Decca carts?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

What do you mean by wearing out your vinyl? How many plays over how long a period? Stylus profile and tonearms also play a significant role in wear and tear how do you account for that forming a bias in tracking force? How much VTF is too much for vinyl, is there any data anywhere? Not knowing any of this I don't have any opinions one way or another on the subject but based on my experience I haven't had any audible wear with SPUs VTF of 3.5g+.

david

Hi David,

Yes all points I agree with. Very tricky to disentangle the multiplicity of factors at play here. It just seems that since we are essentially dragging a hard object through a less hard object that some form of cutting will occur (going to be massively more so with a poorly setup TT) and one of the key factors if we were to derive an equation to empirically calculate this cutting effect would be VTF amongst a host of others. That you haven’t managed to damage your collection is good to know though.

Cheers

 

[MRJAZZ]

Vintage Ortofon SPU GTE is sounding very nice for its first listen on my system. Built in transformer and nude elliptical diamond. Tracks at 4 grams. $850 all in at auction

Other carts on remaining arms: Koetsu Coralstone Diamond, Dynavector XV-t, Lyra Olympos SL mono

I notice you are using, what appears to be a Yamamoto Carbon Fiber head shell on one of your SME arms. Do you think you sacrifice anything vis a vis the standard SME head shell ?

Cheers......

 

[rockitman]

Fair enough - enjoy yourself Christian. Ever played around with vintage Decca carts?

not yet...but I do have a great ED1 WBg (SXL) collection of Decca. I will be on the hunt for one in the not too distant future.

 

[rockitman]

I notice you are using, what appears to be a Yamamoto Carbon Fiber head shell on one of your SME arms. Do you think you sacrifice anything vis a vis the standard SME head shell ?

Cheers......
View attachment 42632

I don't know yet. I think that will take considerable time, effort and patience using the same cart and mounting it in different headshells then trying to remember the differences. I do plan to switch out the CF Yamamoto for a titanium version soon. That headshell has the Lyra Olympos mono mounted to it. What I don't like about that Yamamoto is that the cart holes are elongated allowing you to manipulate the zenith angle. I prefer alignment with the sme type headshell that doesn't allow for cart twisting, instead relying on movement of the sme sled (fore or aft) to get correct alignment using a DB systems protractor.

 

[rockitman]

How does your “Bob’s Devices” compare to your other MC inputs ?

It's a decent SUT and I like the sound. It is not as good as the built in trannies on my Lamm and Allnic phonostages...I think the sound is a bit more colored with it...not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

not yet...but I do have a great ED1 WBg (SXL) collection of Decca. I will be on the hunt for one in the not too distant future.

What SXLs are your faves Christian?

 

[bonzo75]

It's a decent SUT and I like the sound. It is not as good as the built in trannies on my Lamm and Allnic phonostages...I think the sound is a bit more colored with it...not necessarily a bad thing.

Did you like the built in Allnic SUT? Or does that differ based on the carts? Benz sounded better direct rather than through the built in SUT of the h7000

 

[rockitman]

Did you like the built in Allnic SUT? Or does that differ based on the carts? Benz sounded better direct rather than through the built in SUT of the h7000

I love the H5000 SUT's. As you know, they are adjustable so gain and impedance can be pretty well matched depending on the cart.

 

[rockitman]

What SXLs are your faves Christian?

Here are photo's of my best golden era classical lp's (not modern reissues) from Decca, RCA, Mercury and EMI (ASD, ALP, SAX, 33CX). I worked very hard acquiring this collection over the past 2 years and spent quite a bit of $$$ too.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Here are photo's of my best golden era classical lp's (not modern reissues) from Decca, RCA, Mercury and EMI (ASD, ALP, SAX, 33CX). I worked very hard acquiring this collection over the past 2 years and spent quite a bit of $$$ too.

Might be my phone but can’t see any photos

 

[Tango]

Might be my phone but can’t see any photos

Yes. It’s your phone.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yes. It’s your phone.

Ah okay - will look when back from vacation

 

[zerostargeneral]

Dear Sirs, suffice to say;any vinyl that has seen a vintage style cartridge,WILL have damage that will be audible when modern devices are subsequently deployed.

I have done extensive testing using NOS vinyl as the norm.The results caused me to follow an exceptionally linear path,with equal measure forcing me to ditch a lot of expensive machinery.

When playing ultimate condition vinyl I use only the Red Sparrow or the Sumile on a linear tracking arm.These choices are the most controllable and predictable during playback.

This said, vintage cartridges still dominate,numerically speaking,my collection.Especially the Garrot Brothers Decca Blue.

Kindest regards,G.

 

[bonzo75]

I have no idea about VTF and weight etc of the cart and how it affects vinyl, but thought I would just clarify on what the general means by his NOS vinyl since readers who don't know him might not get that from his post. He is talking about a 250k to 300k vinyl collection, which would include multiple copies in fantastic condition of all the pics Christian posted, plus many alternate performances for the same pieces from various labels, some much more costlier than gear. So preserving vinyl is important for him, more so than for many others.

Possibly non collectors might not care

 

[Lagonda]

Benz sounded better direct rather than through the built in SUT of the h7000

What Benz did you try Ked ? The Ebony TR was designed specially for SUT’s and has very low output, 1/40 is recommended. On good live recordings i prefer it over my LPS. A more” in the room” presentation.

 

[bonzo75]

What Benz did you try Ked ? The Ebony TR was designed specially for SUT’s and has very low output, 1/40 is recommended. On good live recordings i prefer it over my LPS. A more” in the room” presentation.

I have heard the LPS but this particular case I referred to was just LP... Benz micro LP