Apogee Full range

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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What are you running your Duettas with?

Yes there can be a difference in restores. Generally, the only people who reality have experience doing a sufficient number of FRs, Divas, and scintilla are Henk in Netherlands and Rich Murry in the US. So if you want an FR, go for one of those depending on your continent. I only found good involvement and midrange in the ones restored by Henk and a duetta by Rich. So I am assuming the crossover points and components used matter
 

christoph

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Dec 11, 2015
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Read the whole thread, all 70 pages:).

Apogee FR is the speaker that got me hooked. I still do remember the sound of those speakers playing Symphony Fantastique on reference recording. Goldmund Studio recordplayer and Dynamic precision poweramps (Probably unknown to most readers, a Norwegian high end amp).

Bought the Duetta IIs but never managed to get the to sound right. Always was som metal ringing in the treble. Nothing like the FRs.

Fascinating that FR loudspeakers still live. I still want a pair of those.

I've been reading in this thread that everey restorer has his own sound. Is it possible to elaborate on the differences between resoreres house sound?

Christian

Where are you located?
I ask because of installer choice...

PS: I have (and had) several pairs of Apogees myself
 

Final

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Dec 12, 2013
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Thanks for your reply Bonzo and Christoph.

The Duettas was sold some years ago. I ran them on Dynamic Precision amplifiers (A brand started by Ex Tandberg employees who wanted to build something more uncompromising. When FR was demoed in Norway, where I live these amps and not KRELL were used).

My current amps are two called A1S, which is the last model made by the company before its sad demise.
 

christoph

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Dec 11, 2015
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I still have a pair of Studio Grands and a pair of Centaur Majors.
Before, I additionally also had a wonderful pair of Scintillas, completely overhauled and modded by Henk from near Rotterdam. A very good friend pried them from my hands. But he lives very close to me and I still have visiting rights ;)

After you live in Norway, I wholeheartedly would recommend Henk as your installer.
He is extremely experienced, knowlegdable and skillful :D

Btw., I know a guy from Finland who has FullRanges, Scintillas and Duettas, all restaured by Henk.
 

Zero000

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Jul 28, 2014
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Bought the Duetta IIs but never managed to get the to sound right. Always was som metal ringing in the treble. Nothing like the FRs.

Speakers are very much a victim of sounding a bit like the materials the drive units are made from. Go to the kitchen a flick a piece of aluminium foil. There is and will be some of the nature of that sound in any aluminium driver I believe. That you didn't hear it in the full range doesn't mean it isn't there, it will present itself with the right material.

I think the reality is that the Kapton backed foil drivers actually damp this, and indeed it does. Flicking a Duetta MRT ribbon sounds far less metallic than flicking bare aluminium foil.

The standard Duetta crossover doesn't compensate for a quite pronounced rise in FR at around 3-4KHz, and that tends to emphasise any 'metallic" feeling in the playback sound. I modified the circuit to eliminate this emphasis, replacing the restorer's components with much more expensive components (much larger inductor etc). This IMHO is a substantial improvement (neither Mark or Ked has heard it).

However, I believe this driver produces the highest degree of subjective resolution out there, pretty much. Sometimes (all the time, really) it is just astonishing. I also believe that some of the tendency towards 'metallic' replay is unquestionably due to the source components. Poor quality solid state amps are particularly guilty of this.

Using a Lampizator Big 7, you can tune this out by valve choice to a greater or lesser degree. A particularly great choice for this is the Sylvania VT-52. The Tung-Sol 6A3 is also a fine choice. The KR PX4 is actually a poor choice, it's mid verges on hyper detailing that sounds really impressive for a while but becomes tiresome over time.

But the real shock I have just had is using a £89 battery operated NOS DAC from Starting Point Systems. This thing is just super relaxed, as if any trace of grain and tendency towards 'metallicness' has been completely removed. The trouble is it is also rather boring sounding, getting literally killed by the Lampi for detail resolution, dynamics and 3D soundstage.

It leaves you seriously asking what is going on, though. If this little French cheapo DAC is so good in this area, it can't all be down to the ribbon. And I believe it isn't.
 

Final

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Dec 12, 2013
10
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I guess metal ringing can be caused by the breakup pattern of the metal. However I think good crossover components can reduse the issue to a point where It’s neglible. The EMIT treble that Infinity used is also aluminium foil but Sounds cleaner than Beryllium at least to my ears.

It’s been so long since I’ve heard the FR, and maybe I’m romantising. But a cooler speaker had never been made IMO.
 

Zero000

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Jul 28, 2014
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I guess metal ringing can be caused by the breakup pattern of the metal. However I think good crossover components can reduse the issue to a point where It’s neglible. The EMIT treble that Infinity used is also aluminium foil but Sounds cleaner than Beryllium at least to my ears.

It’s been so long since I’ve heard the FR, and maybe I’m romantising. But a cooler speaker had never been made IMO.

Yup. I think we pretty much all know what we're talking about here. Try listening to metal cone dynamic speakers versus paper or hemp drivers. The tonality changes massively.

IMHO metal drivers generally kill paper cones for dynamics and 'cleanliness of sound', versus the apparently superior tonal qualities of paper/hemp etc etc.

It is hard to win. Choose your poison!:)
 

Brian Beck

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Sep 15, 2013
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A cautionary tale for FR owners (and probably for owners of other Apogee models):

I am guessing that many people are innocently listening to these speakers incorrectly. Why? The polarity (phasing) of the drivers relative to one another can easily be incorrectly connected. This topic can be very confusing. The pigtails on my FRs and (my Divas too) have colored sleeves indicating what would seem to be the “+” terminal. But these colors do not really indicate “+”. They are relative connection aids only. The stock interface boxes for FRs have a non-inverting transformer connection in the bass but the transformer for the MR has an inverting connection, as does the TW’s connection to its RC crossover. The simple passive line-level crossover is non-inverting in both paths, of course. If the speakers are completely original then connection is straightforward. Blue goes to blue, red goes to red, white goes to white and black goes to black. Everything will be right if the speakers are original, all original boxes are used, and everything is connected per the color codes. And - if the speakers are placed per Apogee’s guidance with minimal toe-in.

The problem is that over the decades, owners, or even restorers, might have changed the pigtails and relabeled the assumed hot leads based on a battery deflection test, but that will be wrong! Furthermore, if users decide to modify or to replace the interface box or to tri-amplify, they can inadvertently reverse the polarities of the drivers relative to one another. I refer here to woofer-to-MR phasing and MR-to-TW phasing, not to side-to-side polarity. But we will check for correct side-to-side polarity too. I discovered that there is confusion about the details of correct connections even among the experts. So I ended up discussing the matter with Graz.

My best advice is what Graz told me: You HAVE to experiment by listening to make sure all the drivers are correctly connected. All Apogee owners should run these tests to verify correct connections. I have described how I did it with FRs and Divas, but owners of other models can do similar tests.

First place the speakers in the listening room where you want them (another big, but separate topic). They should be symmetric relative to side wall distances, and at least 4 feet from the wall behind them. Set toe-in to be either zero or very slight (less than a half-inch of rotation across the face of the speakers).

Next make sure all drivers are correctly “phased” side-to-side. I verified this by playing monaural pink noise from a test CD through both woofers with the other drivers disconnected. I then reversed the connections on one side. The correct connection will place the noise tightly into the center between the speakers. The wrong side-to-side polarity will make the noise diffuse and it will seem to float around your head. Repeat this test with the MR drivers by themselves, and finally with the TWs by themselves. Yes, you must test the different drivers separately. Testing with all drivers connected might hide or confuse a polarity error if one set of drivers is wrongly connected. OK, that’s just the start. Hopefully your speakers will at least have side-to-side polarity right. Now the real fun begins.

Next connect the woofers and MR ribbons only (including any needed corrections from the side-to-side tests). Leave the tweeters disconnected for now. Play a known-good recording of a female vocal, where the voice comes from the center of the soundstage. Listen carefully to a selection. Now reverse the pigtails of BOTH sides of the woofers and listen again. With the wrong connection the voice will be diffuse and disembodied. It will not be tightly focused in the center. It may not sound bad at all, surprisingly. But with the correct connection the voice will snap into focus in the center of the soundstage and it will sound fully fleshed out and whole. It is not hard to discover which connection is correct and which is not.

Next connect the tweeter ribbons and play the selection again. Reverse BOTH sides of the tweeters’ pigtails and compare. Listen to vocal sibilants. I also listened to percussion instruments. Make sure the leading edge transients sound crisp and focused. Incorrectly connected, the sound might be dull and slurred.

Now sit back and enjoy!

This test can be conducted on any of the Apogee speakers. I suspect that the FR is at the highest risk of being connected incorrectly due to its age giving it more opportunities for changes to have been made, and because of some intended polarity inversions inside the interface box. If the interface box has been modified or replaced, or if the MR is driven through a series resistor as some prefer to do, the MR amplifier’s leads must be reversed to match the inverting MR transformer. For those such as myself who drive the woofers directly, we can use the same correct polarity as when we used the bass transformer because, unlike the MR, it is non-inverting.

My advice, and I think I am paraphrasing Graz too, is not to try to think it all out. The proof is in the pudding. Just do the simple tests I described above, and you will KNOW for sure that you have the phasing correct.

I suspect that a fairly high percentage of Apogee owners are playing their speakers with incorrect polarities. Because of the gentle first-order crossovers in the bigger models, these speakers will still sound better than they ought to sound when one set of drivers is connected backwards.

I suspect that the driver polarities might have to be set differently if the speakers are fully toed-in and facing the listener, contrary to what Jason Bloom and Leo Spiegel advised. In fact, if a listener prefers the sound of large Apogees fully toed in, that may be indicative of a driver connection problem.

Correctly adjusted and positioned, the FR speakers will deliver vocals as natural-sounding as I have ever heard. They will reveal differences in microphones, venues and recording settings. It can be uncanny to hear the front-to-back layering of instruments and voices. I have never heard anything quite like them.
 
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morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Yup. I think we pretty much all know what we're talking about here. Try listening to metal cone dynamic speakers versus paper or hemp drivers. The tonality changes massively.

IMHO metal drivers generally kill paper cones for dynamics and 'cleanliness of sound', versus the apparently superior tonal qualities of paper/hemp etc etc.

It is hard to win. Choose your poison!:)

If you consider massive breakup peaks "cleanly". I would argue it goes towards making them sound sterile. As to dynamics, when was the last time you saw a high sensitivity metal cone driver? Only small compression drivers can get away with being metal and get High sensitivity. Practically all high dynamics woofers are paper or doped paper. Same for virtually all non-horn mids and "full-range" drivers of high sensitivity. Unless you don't think sensitivity has anything to do with dynamics...
 

Zero000

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Jul 28, 2014
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If you consider massive breakup peaks "cleanly". I would argue it goes towards making them sound sterile. As to dynamics, when was the last time you saw a high sensitivity metal cone driver? Only small compression drivers can get away with being metal and get High sensitivity. Practically all high dynamics woofers are paper or doped paper. Same for virtually all non-horn mids and "full-range" drivers of high sensitivity. Unless you don't think sensitivity has anything to do with dynamics...

That isn't what I meant. They sound much cleaner and accurate especially on electronic music, say, but suffer at frequencies where the material begins to resonate badly.

WRT to dynamics, I think metal cones driven by high power amps 'sound' far more dynamic, coherent and controlled than paper cones. They're just stiffer and don't wobble about. OK they're high mass but hey.

Does the Cessaro Liszt use a metal diaphragm? Cos if it does (it surely does) it DOESN'T get away with it. That driver reeks of 'metallica'. AGs have it too, but not so bad.
 
Last edited:

Zero000

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2014
2,988
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478
A cautionary tale for FR owners (and probably for owners of other Apogee models):

I am guessing that many people are innocently listening to these speakers incorrectly. Why? The polarity (phasing) of the drivers relative to one another can easily be incorrectly connected. This topic can be very confusing. The pigtails on my FRs and (my Divas too) have colored sleeves indicating what would seem to be the “+” terminal. But these colors do not really indicate “+”. They are relative connection aids only. The stock interface boxes for FRs have a non-inverting transformer connection in the bass but the transformer for the MR has an inverting connection, as does the TW’s connection to its RC crossover. The simple passive line-level crossover is non-inverting in both paths, of course. If the speakers are completely original then connection is straightforward. Blue goes to blue, red goes to red, white goes to white and black goes to black. Everything will be right if the speakers are original, all original boxes are used, and everything is connected per the color codes. And - if the speakers are placed per Apogee’s guidance with minimal toe-in.

The problem is that over the decades, owners, or even restorers, might have changed the pigtails and relabeled the assumed hot leads based on a battery deflection test, but that will be wrong! Furthermore, if users decide to modify or to replace the interface box or to tri-amplify, they can inadvertently reverse the polarities of the drivers relative to one another. I refer here to woofer-to-MR phasing and MR-to-TW phasing, not to side-to-side polarity. But we will check for correct side-to-side polarity too. I discovered that there is confusion about the details of correct connections even among the experts. So I ended up discussing the matter with Graz.

My best advice is what Graz told me: You HAVE to experiment by listening to make sure all the drivers are correctly connected. All Apogee owners should run these tests to verify correct connections. I have described how I did it with FRs and Divas, but owners of other models can do similar tests.

First place the speakers in the listening room where you want them (another big, but separate topic). They should be symmetric relative to side wall distances, and at least 4 feet from the wall behind them. Set toe-in to be either zero or very slight (less than a half-inch of rotation across the face of the speakers).

Next make sure all drivers are correctly “phased” side-to-side. I verified this by playing monaural pink noise from a test CD through both woofers with the other drivers disconnected. I then reversed the connections on one side. The correct connection will place the noise tightly into the center between the speakers. The wrong side-to-side polarity will make the noise diffuse and it will seem to float around your head. Repeat this test with the MR drivers by themselves, and finally with the TWs by themselves. Yes, you must test the different drivers separately. Testing with all drivers connected might hide or confuse a polarity error if one set of drivers is wrongly connected. OK, that’s just the start. Hopefully your speakers will at least have side-to-side polarity right. Now the real fun begins.

Next connect the woofers and MR ribbons only (including any needed corrections from the side-to-side tests). Leave the tweeters disconnected for now. Play a known-good recording of a female vocal, where the voice comes from the center of the soundstage. Listen carefully to a selection. Now reverse the pigtails of BOTH sides of the woofers and listen again. With the wrong connection the voice will be diffuse and disembodied. It will not be tightly focused in the center. It may not sound bad at all, surprisingly. But with the correct connection the voice will snap into focus in the center of the soundstage and it will sound fully fleshed out and whole. It is not hard to discover which connection is correct and which is not.

Next connect the tweeter ribbons and play the selection again. Reverse BOTH sides of the tweeters’ pigtails and compare. Listen to vocal sibilants. I also listened to percussion instruments. Make sure the leading edge transients sound crisp and focused. Incorrectly connected, the sound might be dull and slurred.

Now sit back and enjoy!

This test can be conducted on any of the Apogee speakers. I suspect that the FR is at the highest risk of being connected incorrectly due to its age giving it more opportunities for changes to have been made, and because of some intended polarity inversions inside the interface box. If the interface box has been modified or replaced, or if the MR is driven through a series resistor as some prefer to do, the MR amplifier’s leads must be reversed to match the inverting MR transformer. For those such as myself who drive the woofers directly, we can use the same correct polarity as when we used the bass transformer because, unlike the MR, it is non-inverting.

My advice, and I think I am paraphrasing Graz too, is not to try to think it all out. The proof is in the pudding. Just do the simple tests I described above, and you will KNOW for sure that you have the phasing correct.

I suspect that a fairly high percentage of Apogee owners are playing their speakers with incorrect polarities. Because of the gentle first-order crossovers in the bigger models, these speakers will still sound better than they ought to sound when one set of drivers is connected backwards.

I suspect that the driver polarities might have to be set differently if the speakers are fully toed-in and facing the listener, contrary to what Jason Bloom and Leo Spiegel advised. In fact, if a listener prefers the sound of large Apogees fully toed in, that may be indicative of a driver connection problem.

Correctly adjusted and positioned, the FR speakers will deliver vocals as natural-sounding as I have ever heard. They will reveal differences in microphones, venues and recording settings. It can be uncanny to hear the front-to-back layering of instruments and voices. I have never heard anything quite like them.

Great post and I know some forum members who have heard Divas with precisely this problem;)
 

Argonaut

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Jul 30, 2013
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Field Coil could be your friend if you do not wish to go down the panel or trad magnet driver route, likewise plasma tweeter.

For my part I chose to go Stat over Ribbon as their strengths gell nicely with my musical proclivities, Given Justin's I can quite appreciate why he goes with Apogee's.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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That isn't what I meant. They sound much cleaner and accurate especially on electronic music, say, but suffer at frequencies where the material begins to resonate badly.

WRT to dynamics, I think metal cones driven by high power amps 'sound' far more dynamic, coherent and controlled than paper cones. They're just stiffer and don't wobble about. OK they're high mass but hey.

Does the Cessaro Liszt use a metal diaphragm? Cos if it does (it surely does) it DOESN'T get away with it. That driver reeks of 'metallica'. AGs have it too, but not so bad.

Well, a driver is essentially always in break up...if it does break up because those frequencies are being excited repeatedly. I agree they can sound clean but the breakup imparts a coldness to the sound that I have a hard time living with...similar issue with ceramic but a somewhat different character result.

My experience is different in that I find big prodrivers made from doped paper or horn loaded paper drivers to sound more dynamic. I don't find heavy metal drivers with high powered amps to really sound dynamic...often signifcantly less lively in fact...

Which driver on the Liszt? The mid bass is a 11 inch Supravox made from paper. The bass drivers I am not sure about. The mid horn is likely Be from TAD as is the tweeter. You might have a point with that although these are considered to be excellent drivers. The drivers from Vitavox, JBL etc. usually had aluminum diaphrams and usually don't sound at all metallic (as long as the horn was not metal). My Odeons have a Beyma compression driver that is Titanium and it is one sweet and transparent driver (the Jadis Eurythmie also used it).
 

Zero000

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Jul 28, 2014
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Well, a driver is essentially always in break up...if it does break up because those frequencies are being excited repeatedly. I agree they can sound clean but the breakup imparts a coldness to the sound that I have a hard time living with...similar issue with ceramic but a somewhat different character result.

My experience is different in that I find big prodrivers made from doped paper or horn loaded paper drivers to sound more dynamic. I don't find heavy metal drivers with high powered amps to really sound dynamic...often signifcantly less lively in fact...

Which driver on the Liszt? The mid bass is a 11 inch Supravox made from paper. The bass drivers I am not sure about. The mid horn is likely Be from TAD as is the tweeter. You might have a point with that although these are considered to be excellent drivers. The drivers from Vitavox, JBL etc. usually had aluminum diaphrams and usually don't sound at all metallic (as long as the horn was not metal). My Odeons have a Beyma compression driver that is Titanium and it is one sweet and transparent driver (the Jadis Eurythmie also used it).

I've never owned any metal coned speaker as I find them to have issues too. I agree with you they can sound pretty awful. Models from Acoustic Energy come to mind. The first versions of AE1, 2, 3 and 4 (1990-6). But the 4, say, was absolutely awesomely dynamic and quite realistic(ish) playing loud doing nothing but drums. The AE1 could rip your ears out with its lack of bass and playing bright material.

They all had rigid cabinets and small, long throw drivers. Interesting speakers. Anyway, getting off topic:)

 

cjfrbw

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Apr 20, 2010
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I can hear if the main speakers are out of phase with each other right away. As far as the separate ribbons being properly phased, you need to check the positives and negatives in relation to the demands of the particular crossover.

Accuphase F25 has a switch for reversing phase, and you can hear pretty well which phase setting reinforces the imaging rather than cancels between two ribbons adjacent in the frequency spectrum by crossover in the more sensitive midrange.

Phasing errors have to be one of the most common sources or screwed up sound that is easily resolvable with instrumentation.

I found it interesting that using the microphone room correction program on the surrounds, that virtually every old Sony Vfet amp from the 70's I have used has had the speaker outputs reversed in phase i.e. negative is positive and positive is negative, at least by American standards. Doesn't matter for two channel only, but does when you are integrating multi speaker systems and active crossovers for main speakers.
 
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ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Well, a driver is essentially always in break up...if it does break up because those frequencies are being excited repeatedly. I agree they can sound clean but the breakup imparts a coldness to the sound that I have a hard time living with...similar issue with ceramic but a somewhat different character result.

My experience is different in that I find big prodrivers made from doped paper or horn loaded paper drivers to sound more dynamic. I don't find heavy metal drivers with high powered amps to really sound dynamic...often signifcantly less lively in fact...

Which driver on the Liszt? The mid bass is a 11 inch Supravox made from paper. The bass drivers I am not sure about. The mid horn is likely Be from TAD as is the tweeter. You might have a point with that although these are considered to be excellent drivers. The drivers from Vitavox, JBL etc. usually had aluminum diaphrams and usually don't sound at all metallic (as long as the horn was not metal). My Odeons have a Beyma compression driver that is Titanium and it is one sweet and transparent driver (the Jadis Eurythmie also used it).
My experience and preference is pretty much the same as yours, I find light vintage paper cones a lot faster more dynamic and natural than any other cone materials I’ve heard. Unfortunately the modern variants don’t have the same sensitivity and agility of vintage cones and sound mechanical in comparison. Still prefer aluminum to Be diaphragms, never heard a Ti one.

david
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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My experience and preference is pretty much the same as yours, I find light vintage paper cones a lot faster more dynamic and natural than any other cone materials I’ve heard. Unfortunately the modern variants don’t have the same sensitivity and agility of vintage cones and sound mechanical in comparison. Still prefer aluminum to Be diaphragms, never heard a Ti one.

david

I can't speak for all Ti compression drivers so it is a specific , rather than general observation. The Beyma CP350Ti is a wonderful driver.
 

Zero000

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Jul 28, 2014
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My experience and preference is pretty much the same as yours, I find light vintage paper cones a lot faster more dynamic and natural than any other cone materials I’ve heard. Unfortunately the modern variants don’t have the same sensitivity and agility of vintage cones and sound mechanical in comparison. Still prefer aluminum to Be diaphragms, never heard a Ti one.

david

To really nail this and whether we all actually have a common view or not we need a separate thread on what is meant by the term dynamic.

There was a long thread on it on another forum... I am not going to repeat it here however.
 

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