ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[bonzo75]

Considering that I wouldn't own a Vitus or Dagostino on any speaker, I can't agree with your idea there.

Regarding CAT, we did a shootout between the JL2 Signature and NAT SE2SE and while reasonably close overall the SE2SEs were clear winners...on Apogees.

Also the VAC 30/30 was no contest to the VA350 and Diana on a couple different speakers (ref3a and Rigolettos and La Bohemes and ThielCS3.7). The VAC handily dispatched the Octaves and a Karan Integrated.

I also heard the VA350 outperform the Janis Defy7 mkiii with siltech on focal mezzo utopia be speakers near London and the Janis is one of the better sounding PP tube amps I have heard.

You haven't heard Diana properly either on conventional speakers...it is a beast.

I have had the Nat magnetostat SE at home with the Magma SE next to Jadis on Verity. I have heard the Nat apogee system you mention, and another with Nat and full range. These don't sound anything like apogee systems to me so let's just disagree. Either we have different tastes here or you have a SET bias. The KR, btw, probably have that drive because they have a transistor in their path.

 

[LL21]

right now I would say details are missing. but give me a month or so of frequent listening and I might more come around to your viewpoint. on vocals it's like a different recording, fine textures of the dart's are replaced with more human components. so I get that part. and there is more spooky 'presence' keys, but less detail and fine rendered information. but delicacy and special clues are more profound. higher degrees of information verses higher degrees of communicated intent. and more to-die-for tone, of course. so trade-offs.

this is just how it looks right now.

On the details...do you have any instinct that suggests it might be related "simply" to noise floor of the ML3...which you might over time be able to lower (ie, mini-hum, etc)?

 

[morricab]

I have had the Nat magnetostat SE at home with the Magma SE next to Jadis on Verity. I have heard the Nat apogee system you mention, and another with Nat and full range. These don't sound anything like apogee systems to me so let's just disagree. Either we have different tastes here or you have a SET bias. The KR, btw, probably have that drive because they have a transistor in their path.

No, I think you heard that system with the full Apogee electronics and the NAT Transmitters, if I am not mistaken. Before that he had the Grands running panels only fullrange with a custom done Diva crossover. It was a direct head to head with the CAT.

I am also not sure what you mean by they don't sound like Apogee systems...yes they don't use big SS bruisers...we all moved on from the Krell/Apogee concept a long time ago...the flaws become obvious once you try to live with it. Also, I know you were very impressed with full-range system in Germany with the Sphinx amps. I thought it sounded very cold and lifeless.

Any preference I have for SETs came from hard observation and experience with living with nearly every topology of amp (still haven't had SET OTL though). A really good SET is the only one that dispenses with most of the electronic artifact cues that are dead giveaways for reproduction.

I have deep respect for Marek from KR audio for using transistors in such a transparent manner...Nelson Pass could learn something from this, IMO. His preamp is also quite a firecracker.

Which Verity model? A friend of mine dumped his Rienzis after hearing my Reference 3a system (L[integrale and Master Control MMCs) with VAC 30/30 and NAT Symbiosis SE amps. BTW, that is another speaker brand that sound better with SET...

 

[morricab]

Hi Morricab,

Which KRs on the Wilson X1s?

Both times it was with the same VA350i.

 

[LL21]

Both times it was with the same VA350i.

Thanks!

 

[morricab]

right now I would say details are missing. but give me a month or so of frequent listening and I might more come around to your viewpoint. on vocals it's like a different recording, fine textures of the dart's are replaced with more human components. so I get that part. and there is more spooky 'presence' keys, but less detail and fine rendered information. but delicacy and special clues are more profound. higher degrees of information verses higher degrees of communicated intent. and more to-die-for tone, of course. so trade-offs.

this is just how it looks right now.

Sorry to drill down on this details thing but I think it is beneficial to understand what kind of details are missing...please be specific if you can. I am curious because I have heard many systems that to me sound like they are exaggerating details and in fact I would often argue that this is distortion masquerading as enhanced HF detail. Not saying that is true in your case but would be instructive to understand.

 

[bonzo75]

No, I think you heard that system with the full Apogee electronics and the NAT Transmitters, if I am not mistaken. Before that he had the Grands running panels only fullrange with a custom done Diva crossover. It was a direct head to head with the CAT.

I am also not sure what you mean by they don't sound like Apogee systems...yes they don't use big SS bruisers...we all moved on from the Krell/Apogee concept a long time ago...the flaws become obvious once you try to live with it. Also, I know you were very impressed with full-range system in Germany with the Sphinx amps. I thought it sounded very cold and lifeless.

Any preference I have for SETs came from hard observation and experience with living with nearly every topology of amp (still haven't had SET OTL though). A really good SET is the only one that dispenses with most of the electronic artifact cues that are dead giveaways for reproduction.

I have deep respect for Marek from KR audio for using transistors in such a transparent manner...Nelson Pass could learn something from this, IMO. His preamp is also quite a firecracker.

Which Verity model? A friend of mine dumped his Rienzis after hearing my Reference 3a system (L[integrale and Master Control MMCs) with VAC 30/30 and NAT Symbiosis SE amps. BTW, that is another speaker brand that sound better with SET...

Leonore. I dumped verity even without listening to your speakers. I am honest enough to admit to myself drawbacks of my system. And yes I had the VAC 30/30. The Jadis were just better. I have also heard them sound good with Pass. And yes, when my friends who were buddies with a dealer that had the Verity as his home system for years came to my place, said mine sounded much better than his. I agree. So it wasn't the set up. It's just that the speakers, being cones, are limited. My previous ML system with AR sounded better to me than this system. So I sold those off too. Anyway I had initially bought the Verity because I wanted to expand it to a MCH system, which I should have. At that time I should have got out of stereo. I gave up out of boredom and wanting to see new equipment (had not started traveling then). An MCH needs a few years of fund management and expansion and I just did not have the patience.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think Mike is perceiving accurately and articulating perfectly the subjective reasons tube lovers love tubes.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

On the details...do you have any instinct that suggests it might be related "simply" to noise floor of the ML3...which you might over time be able to lower (ie, mini-hum, etc)?

just got back from a local pro audio store. I picked up a pair of 25' generic (not even a brand on the simple plastic bag) XLR's for under $50. plugged them in. now with the preamp muted you have to put your ear within 6 inches of the tweeter to even hear any hiss. it is dead quiet. as quiet (or near enough) as the dart's I think. i'll have to listen for a while to comment on the musicality of these interconnects.......however......they are very quiet.

noise--gone! check.

first blush (5 minutes of listening) maybe a bit more top end air too. but could be expectation bias.

 

[LL21]

just got back from a local pro audio store. I picked up a pair of 25' generic (not even a brand on the simple plastic bag) XLR's for under $50. plugged them in. now with the preamp muted you have to put your ear within 6 inches of the tweeter to even hear any hiss. it is dead quiet. as quiet (or near enough) as the dart's I think. i'll have to listen for a while to comment on the musicality of these interconnects.......however......they are very quiet.

noise--gone! check.

first blush (5 minutes of listening) maybe a bit more top end air too. but could be expectation bias.

love it...that is the kind of 'stuff' i was referring to in terms of getting the ML3 quieter and quieter. Look forward to hearing the results sound-wise and particularly detail wise.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sorry to drill down on this details thing but I think it is beneficial to understand what kind of details are missing...please be specific if you can. I am curious because I have heard many systems that to me sound like they are exaggerating details and in fact I would often argue that this is distortion masquerading as enhanced HF detail. Not saying that is true in your case but would be instructive to understand.

I will keep your concerns in mind, and when I come across more passages like that I will do my best to formulate a more complete response.

as my previous comments mentioned, I am getting my arms around this, and have not yet gone back to the darts since Monday. so there is a bit of dot connecting and not completely sorted out perspectives.

 

[the sound of Tao]

right now I would say details are missing. but give me a month or so of frequent listening and I might more come around to your viewpoint. on vocals it's like a different recording, fine textures of the dart's are replaced with more human components. so I get that part. and there is more spooky 'presence' keys, but less detail and fine rendered information. but delicacy and special clues are more profound. higher degrees of information verses higher degrees of communicated intent. and more to-die-for tone, of course. so trade-offs.

this is just how it looks right now.

Mike, great the Lamms are working out for you. With regard to missing detail I’m wondering if cable choice might be the make or break element here in terms of detail and resolution and I’d guess given speaker types maybe Steve’s experience with Lamm and his Wilsons may be more reflective than say if you were pairing the Lamms with horns. With SET and the Animas I found cable choice less critical and could use copper cables but with Shindo in the Maggies system silver cables (wireworld platinum) was absolutely ideal. So perhaps high order resolution cables like Masterbuilt or Goebbel or the better silver cables might be the answer for the Lamms with your MM7s. I’ve heard the MM2 paired with Technical Brain and mono filament silver Crystal Cable and the MM3s with Soulution 700s and Zensati silver/gold cables sounding amazing so silver might be a good option with the Lamms and your speakers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, great the Lamms are working out for you. With regard to missing detail I’m wondering if cable choice might be the make or break element here in terms of detail and resolution and I’d guess given speaker types maybe Steve’s experience with Lamm and his Wilsons may be more reflective than say if you were pairing the Lamms with horns. With SET and the Animas I found cable choice less critical and could use copper cables but with Shindo in the Maggies system silver cables (wireworld platinum) was absolutely ideal. So perhaps high order resolution cables like Masterbuilt or Goebbel or the better silver cables might be the answer for the Lamms with your MM7s. I’ve heard the MM2 paired with Technical Brain and mono filament silver Crystal Cable and the MM3s with Soulution 700s and Zensati silver/gold cables sounding amazing so silver might be a good option with the Lamms and your speakers.

yes, today getting the noise now 100% dealt with is a good step for the basic issues. now that I have a grip on that with the XLR's, I can think about the finer points of exactly which cables to use both for interconnects and speaker cables. before I step up and spend any dollars on cables, I will allow David to school me a bit. and there is zero hurry on this part now that there is no noise. i'll have to throw these generic XLR's on the cable cooker some too to give them a fighting chance. might be a touch of glare to begin with (understandable), but they are now settling down some.

as far as detail; the problem with the ML3's in my system is that they are being compared directly to my dart's with the 'zeel' interface which basically surpasses anything I've heard in detail. so what I want is for the ML3's to be optimal and sound like ML3's should sound, not necessarily better the darts in detail. if they do.......fine, but it's not why I bought them. my listening experience last night was amazing, and that was just fine. no doubt i'll find more of everything as time goes by and I get some good advice and try things.

I get that others have their interests in how an 'uber' SET competes with an 'uber' solid state in that way, but for me I just want both amps to be at their best musically.

 

[the sound of Tao]

That’s great Mike, being true to the Lamms and the idea that appreciating both the Darts and the Lamms by allowing their best characters to come out rather than pitching them against each other makes complete sense. Very cool that you aren’t rushing the journey and allowing for time to appreciate discovery along the way.

 

[microstrip]

yes, today getting the noise now 100% dealt with is a good step for the basic issues.(...)

Did you try using shorting plugs at the inputs of the ML3's just to check for their intrinsic noise?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Did you try using shorting plugs at the inputs of the ML3's just to check for their intrinsic noise?

not sure how to do that. if you explain I will try to follow.

these are 'quasi-XLR's', so one leg is not used, but you have the plugs for the choice to do what I did. but now there is no noise to worry about.

 

[jeff1225]

Mike are the grounds still lifted on the amps?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike are the grounds still lifted on the amps?

yes. and David is sending me some power cords to try in place of the generic one's i'm now using.

 

[Folsom]

just got back from a local pro audio store. I picked up a pair of 25' generic (not even a brand on the simple plastic bag) XLR's for under $50. plugged them in. now with the preamp muted you have to put your ear within 6 inches of the tweeter to even hear any hiss. it is dead quiet. as quiet (or near enough) as the dart's I think. i'll have to listen for a while to comment on the musicality of these interconnects.......however......they are very quiet.

noise--gone! check.

first blush (5 minutes of listening) maybe a bit more top end air too. but could be expectation bias.

That makes sense.

When you are using single ended with a battery source, it can become an antenna. In this case it was for 60hz. When you switch to XLR you have a shielded antenna. The enclosure on the DartZeel is metal so it works like a shield, and the XLR have a shield... it made it more akin to just making the ML3 boxes larger in an electrical sense. Where as the single ended was like opening a cable length gap in the enclosure. Even a "shielded" single ended often won't work right because the ground isn't connected to the enclosure - and that is often because it'll sound totally wrong (I'm not a fan of shielded SE cables).

 

[kevinkwann]

not sure how to do that. if you explain I will try to follow.

these are 'quasi-XLR's', so one leg is not used, but you have the plugs for the choice to do what I did. but now there is no noise to worry about.

You’re not sure because it can’t be done. For some reason, Microstrip thinks that the ML3 and M1.2 have the same type of input scheme. They do not.