Luxury Sedan Priced Speakers- they have fancy car paint, but do they sound better?

[caesar]

Stereophile really seems to like high priced speakers like Vivid, Wilson, and YG. TAS really likes the Magicos. These manufacturers have priced them (psychologically, IMO) as much as the ultimate automobiles, while painting them like they are fancy cars.

Are the speakers that cost as much as a luxury german sedan really better than a Quad ($10K) or Soundlab ($25K), or do they just play louder because they are physically bigger?

 

[Steve Williams]

well they do throw a larger and more realistic sound stage

 

[audioguy]

While I don't consider the Magico's large (at least not the Q5), large speakers, as Steve suggests, do throw a larger, more realistic sound stage. But are they better? Who knows? And are they worth the price? Yes as long as someone is willing to pay the price.

This is a funny hobby that has ensnared us. Get used to it !!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

This is a funny hobby that has ensnared us. Get used to it !!

I think I'll pass. Once you get to the undeniable truth that it is all trade-offs and compromises and most of them are in the recording, it's pretty easy to settle into the compromises you're willing to live with, to choose your illusion, and start looking for new music. I'm willing to live without a huge sound stage in a huge room because A) it boogers with the pinpoint image, the deep view into the recording that has ensnared me, and B) because it is no more realistic, it's just a different choice of illusion. I feel that way partly because of the small acoustic ensemble music I usually prefer. But for the sake of discussion, let's assume I listen to symphonic music and I long for that big hall illusion from my single chair in my 30 X 40 ft listening room....

Revel Salon 2, $22,000 pr.

Wilson Alexandria 2, $129,000 pr

$107,000 more sound stage? More sound stage, period? Really?

Oh that voodoo that you do so well....

Tim

 

[amirm]

An interesting question is if Revel Salon 2's were priced at $100K, would they get more attention? I have to think they would. People look at the price tag and automatically assume it is in a tier lower.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Oh and just to be sure I don't blow my rep or make anyone think I've drunk some passive kool aid, let's put a pair of these on stands in my theoretical big listening room...

Event Opals, $3,000

and one of these in each corner...

REL G1 X 4, $12,000

15 grand and the amps are paid for.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

An interesting question is if Revel Salon 2's were priced at $100K, would they get more attention? I have to think they would. People look at the price tag and automatically assume it is in a tier lower.

Yeah, the question is a tier lower than what? They go deep, they go high, they are much closer to flat than any speaker has a right to expect, and they have almost exactly the same response up to 30 degrees off axis as they do up front (and that's pretty rare). They have plenty of drivers to create plenty of sound pressure, unless your room is so big you need a PA system. So why aren't they a hundred grand?

I think it has to come down to the philosophy of the people running the company.

Tim

 

[amirm]

Tim, I don't think people get to the listening part of this. They see the price and if they are in the market for the "best" speaker, they ignore the Salon 2. We have a fair number of customers for whom the cost of audio equipment is simply immaterial given their financial situation. None look at Salon 2s until we play it for them. Then there is a double-take and even then, you can see they are uncomfortable with the thought of the "best" not being the most expensive or nearly so.

The good news though is that the much lower MSRP and hence dealer cost, allows us to stock and showcase the Salon 2s. We simply would not do that with anything more expensive as it would simply tie up way too much cash.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, I don't think people get to the listening part of this. They see the price and if they are in the market for the "best" speaker, they ignore the Salon 2. We have a fair number of customers for whom the cost of audio equipment is simply immaterial given their financial situation. None look at Salon 2s until we play it for them. Then there is a double-take and even then, you can see they are uncomfortable with the thought of the "best" not being the most expensive or nearly so.

The good news though is that the much lower MSRP and hence dealer cost, allows us to stock and showcase the Salon 2s. We simply would not do that with anything more expensive as it would simply tie up way too much cash.

Well, I wish you and your showroom were here, Amir. I wouldn't buy Salons, I just don't have the space for them. But I'd stop by Starbucks on my way to your place to listen to them once a week or so...

Tim

 

[KeithR]

It really comes down to cabinet---this is pretty much the sole reason there are Mercedes cost speakers.

Revel uses MDF in that speaker for 22k, hence why the cost is low. if they used pure aluminum ala Magico, it would increase quite a bit.

Revel makes their own drivers like Magico which I admire. The problem with Revel is they are missing out on the trend to higher efficiency speakers. The age of 200 lb SS monoblocks is over---and not preferred by audiophiles these days. The nice thing about Wilson Maxxs and above is the sensitivity. Magico's new Q3 is alleged 90dbs (will see how the load really is when reviewed). This allows amplifier flexibility.

 

[caesar]

well they do throw a larger and more realistic sound stage

The reason I mentioned the Soundlab above is that it throws a HUGE wall of sound at you. And not only is it HUGE, it sounds damn real too.

 

[caesar]

Tim, I don't think people get to the listening part of this. They see the price and if they are in the market for the "best" speaker, they ignore the Salon 2. We have a fair number of customers for whom the cost of audio equipment is simply immaterial given their financial situation. None look at Salon 2s until we play it for them. Then there is a double-take and even then, you can see they are uncomfortable with the thought of the "best" not being the most expensive or nearly so.

The good news though is that the much lower MSRP and hence dealer cost, allows us to stock and showcase the Salon 2s. We simply would not do that with anything more expensive as it would simply tie up way too much cash.

The Salon 2, although not my cup of tea, would be priced as much as a German luxury sedan - in the neighborhood of the Magico and Wilson, if they were made by a smaller company.

I also wonder if Revels have "a human face" to represent them, such as Alon Wolf, Yoav G, or David Wilson, instead of some big, abstract company. It is a lot easier for a reviewer to bond with a creator who goes to shows and sets them up in their home than some beuaracrat.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Stereophile really seems to like high priced speakers like Vivid, Wilson, and YG. TAS really likes the Magicos. These manufacturers have priced them (psychologically, IMO) as much as the ultimate automobiles, while painting them like they are fancy cars.

Are the speakers that cost as much as a luxury german sedan really better than a Quad ($10K) or Soundlab ($25K), or do they just play louder because they are physically bigger?

i think that there are speakers in the under $25k range that are world class in performance......Mag 20.2, Quad, Sound Lab etc. but are not full range and cannot really fill a large room at full frequency. we see many people attempt to add subs to these amazing speakers to get the whole picture. which works to varying degrees.

the problem comes down to the physical ability to move air. there is no replacement for displacement. PERIOD. it takes large cones and large heavy cabinets to get the leverage for large scale music.

and then getting true coherence with these limited bandwidth but otherwise amazing sounding speakers from a separate subwoofer system is rarely achieved. maybe only with a digital crossover (boo, hiss).

if you want the refinement of the Soundlab, Mag 20, or Quad but also the complete dynamic picture then it will almost always cost ya plenty.

which is why i love my Evolution Acoustics MM3's. plenty of cabinet volume, plenty of cone surface, great integration, great refinement. under $50k list price. it's most unattractive feature is it's low list price. which removes it from consideration as an 'uber-speaker' to many. which is a shame really.

is spending in the $40k-$50k range for speakers crazy? maybe. but to most people spending more than $500 is crazy for speakers. a better way to look at it is......are the best speakers in the $40k to $50k price range better than speakers just below that price range? are buyers getting something for their additional dollars? then what about just above that price range?

where do more dollars not really equal more performance?

 

[amirm]

The Salon 2, although not my cup of tea, would be priced as much as a German luxury sedan - in the neighborhood of the Magico and Wilson, if they were made by a smaller company.

I also wonder if Revels have "a human face" to represent them, such as Alon Wolf, Yoav G, or David Wilson, instead of some big, abstract company. It is a lot easier for a reviewer to bond with a creator who goes to shows and sets them up in their home than some beuaracrat.

Excellent points. Steve Jobs is a great example of a how a face and personality can give a tremendous boost to a product.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Excellent points. Steve Jobs is a great example of a how a face and personality can give a tremendous boost to a product.

Though I don't know how Jobs can possibly expect to compete with this adorable, charismatic face...

Tim

 

[amirm]

Though I don't know how Jobs can possibly expect to compete with this adorable, charismatic face...

Tim

Indeed. While not publicized, surveys would constantly show Bill's opinion of the populist was always off the chart. The idea that a college drop out would create such success was always heavily revered by the masses. Even during the darkest times for Microsoft, Bill's reputation would stay untarnished.

That said, I am not sure his aura translated as well as Steve's is with consumer products.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Indeed. While not publicized, surveys would constantly show Bill's opinion of the populist was always off the chart. The idea that a college drop out would create such success was always heavily revered by the masses. Even during the darkest times for Microsoft, Bill's reputation would stay untarnished.

That said, I am not sure his aura translated as well as Steve's is with consumer products.

It is hard to dislike a guy like Gates who made himself the richest man in the world and delivered a ton of good stuff to us in the process, then turned around and became a global philanthropist on a huge scale. I've never been a big fan of MS products (though there were years I simply couldn't have gotten through without Office), but it's hard not to like that kind of success story.

Back on topic, Mike said:

the problem comes down to the physical ability to move air. there is no replacement for displacement. PERIOD.]

That's just not my experience. Many years of stacking cabinets for PA systems and swapping drivers and cabinets for guitar amplifiers taught me long ago that a 15 inch driver is not necessarily louder or better than two 8s, regardless of the size of the room. It's just not that simple, and I'm sure I've worked some rooms as big as your listening space. And if we're talking about "displacement," not the size of the individual drivers, here you go:

Revel Salon 2
1" x 1
4" x 1
6.5" x 1
8" x 4
Total displacement = 43.5"

Wilson Alexandria 2

1" x 2 (counting the rear-mounted super tweeter)
7" x 2
13" x 1
15" x 1
Total displacement = 44"

These are not meaningful differences in displacement or ability to move air and generate SPLs. They are just different design approaches. I'll bet the Salon would hold it's own against the Alexandria in any room. I'll bet reasonable men could even disagree on which one sounds better. I'll bet that measurements, in room, would even favor the Salon.

Tim

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It is hard to dislike a guy like Gates who made himself the richest man in the world and delivered a ton of good stuff to us in the process, then turned around and became a global philanthropist on a huge scale. I've never been a big fan of MS products (though there were years I simply couldn't have gotten through without Office), but it's hard not to like that kind of success story.

Back on topic, Mike said:



That's just not my experience. Many years of stacking cabinets for PA systems and swapping drivers and cabinets for guitar amplifiers taught me long ago that a 15 inch driver is not necessarily louder or better than two 8s, regardless of the size of the room. It's just not that simple, and I'm sure I've worked some rooms as big as your listening space. And if we're talking about "displacement," not the size of the individual drivers, here you go:

Revel Salon 2
1" x 1
4" x 1
6.5" x 1
8" x 4
Total displacement = 43.5"

Wilson Alexandria 2

1" x 2 (counting the rear-mounted super tweeter)
7" x 2
13" x 1
15" x 1
Total displacement = 44"

These are not meaningful differences in displacement or ability to move air and generate SPLs. They are just different design approaches. I'll bet the Salon would hold it's own against the Alexandria in any room. I'll bet reasonable men could even disagree on which one sounds better. I'll bet that measurements, in room, would even favor the Salon.

Tim

first; i don't accept the X-2's as my standard for moving air. so your numbers don't mean much to me. and your numbers don't consider the cabinet size, construction, sealed or ported, and mass all of which are important in moving air....all of which are related to displacement.

even so; the X-2's would easily humble the Salon 2's in a listening test in terms of bass foundation.

sure; there are rooms and systems where the X-2's would be entirely competent; but past a certain point they would still be wanting. why did Steve add the Gotham's? for a good reason.

the Evolutions have 2 15" powered subs per side in a sealed box. which is a different thing than the X-2's passive ported 15" and 13" drivers.

until you hear a system where you have headroom in a system's ability to move air effortlessly in a large room along with articulation and coherence you don't know what you are missing.

when you said.....

That's just not my experience.

......i agree. until your reference gets challenged it's hard to see what i'm saying.

and that ability to provide a foundation to the music is what make system's sound real. not that there are not other aspects of music reproduction that are important, or that some listeners might value other things personally. real life has a foundation which other sounds are built upon, as does live music. but this part is not easy to achieve.

 

[AMP]

GREAT thread. Thank you for starting it!!

I came in late, but a few things have struck me so far:

... But are they better? Who knows? And are they worth the price? Yes as long as someone is willing to pay the price.

This is the key right here. As long as enough people are willing to purchase an item at a given price then it is priced correctly. Their reasons for justifying that price are largely irrelevant, as the market ultimately determines value. Individuals may disagree with the pricing of a product, but as long as it's selling (and these products are most definitely selling) then more power to the manufacturer.

This is a funny hobby that has ensnared us. Get used to it !!

Another good point. We participate in a hobby full of items which could all be categorized as luxury purchases (regardless of price). Assuming someone _needs_ a device to reproduce sound there are hundreds of options in the sub-$200 range. Spending any more than that (regardless of benefit) is a luxury.

Hobbies provide an escape and an outlet for people to devote some energy and, hopefully, their pursuit results in a more fulfilling life. How an individual goes about doing their hobby is not up to any of us to judge. If I want to go out and spend $100,000 on some magic beans for my stereo then that's between me and my magic bean dealer.

Making a blanket statement that a particular product is "too expensive" or "overpriced" simply isn't fair much in the same way that disparaging someone for listening to music on a boom box isn't fair. If it (the product and whatever is done with it) is making the individual happy and, at the same time, hurts no one else then the rest just doesn't matter.

An interesting question is if Revel Salon 2's were priced at $100K, would they get more attention? I have to think they would. People look at the price tag and automatically assume it is in a tier lower.

Bingo. Harman has chosen to price the Revels at this level and that is their prerogative. They are likely missing out on catching the attention of customers who equate price with overall "betterness," but that is their choice and it seems to be working well for them.

Most luxury-centric industries are controlled by perception rather than reality. Manufacturers who embrace this fact tend to do very well and work very hard to ensure that their products are perceived exactly as they want them to be (which in itself costs a lot of money). As long as the manufacturer isn't committing outright fraud I see no issue in catering to the wants and needs of the market... and right now the part of the market that is shopping is doing so at the uber high end. (Whether or not this is good for the hobby is another discussion entirely)

It really comes down to cabinet---this is pretty much the sole reason there are Mercedes cost speakers.

Revel uses MDF in that speaker for 22k, hence why the cost is low. if they used pure aluminum ala Magico, it would increase quite a bit.

I have to disagree here. It comes down to what the market is willing to pay. Plain and simple.

A smart business person will price his products at a level to ensure profit for himself and his dealers. The cost of that product is the sum of the parts, labor to manufacture, R&D, marketing, operational expenses and a host of other things that tend to nickel and dime one to death.

Saying that cabinet material A is better than B just isn't right (in my opinion) as it all comes down to how that material is used to create a finished product. Implying that MDF should result in a cheap speaker does a disservice to the good designers who figure out how to use materials in new and creative ways.

Sure, a box built out of 3/4" MDF isn't going to yield the greatest speaker. Build that "box" out of several stacked layers of MDF in which you can build an internal transmission line and bracing while assembling them using constrained layer dampening could build a pretty incredible speaker. Sure, the material is less expensive, but that doesn't make it any worse than another material if used in a thoughtfully engineered way.

** disclaimer ** I'm awaiting delivery of very expensive speakers made out of MDF

The Salon 2, although not my cup of tea, would be priced as much as a German luxury sedan - in the neighborhood of the Magico and Wilson, if they were made by a smaller company.

I also wonder if Revels have "a human face" to represent them, such as Alon Wolf, Yoav G, or David Wilson, instead of some big, abstract company. It is a lot easier for a reviewer to bond with a creator who goes to shows and sets them up in their home than some beuaracrat.

Both excellent points.

Revel has chosen their market and price point and that is their decision. They can deliver a tremendous amount of "bang for the buck" as their parent company has tremendous resources available for use... so, yes, if the Salon 2 were made by a boutique manufacturer they would likely be much, much more expensive.

I fully agree that people like to buy from people and this is alive and well in this industry. I like the fact that I can pick up the phone and speak to the person who designed the product that I own. It puts a personal face on everything. I'll be the first to admit that this isn't necessary, but it feels good.

 

[jazdoc]

I like to invert things: Why do people spend so much money on CARS! My dad likes to say that "the first $25,000 is transportation, the rest is ego." I'd much rather spend the money on quality speakers that I'll enjoy everyday for years rather than a car which is depreciating as you drive it off the lot.