I'm Not Gonna Tell How Great My MicroRendu plus Sonore Signature Power Supply Sounds!

[Diapason]

A forum upgrade has inadvertently deleted some posts, apparently. Steve W started a thread elsewhere saying he's flagged the issue and is trying to get deleted posts reinstated if possible.

I'm still watching this thread with interest!

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

My understanding is that the June batch of microrendus is now or shortly shipping out. I believe Amir ordered one. Anyone else order one?

 

[vindixon]

My understanding is that the June batch of microrendus is now or shortly shipping out. I believe Amir ordered one. Anyone else order one?

Yes I got an email on Monday

Thank you for your order from microJukebox! We wanted to let you know that your order (#1068) was shipped via USPS, USPS Priority Mail on 6/6/2016. You can track your package at any time using the link below.

It should be delivered Thursday.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Here it is, Part 2 of the Computer Audiophile review on the spectacular Microrendu!

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/705-sonore-microrendu-review-part-2/

 

[AudioExplorations]

I can't wait till I get mine.

Hi Adam, did you end up getting one? Your thoughts vs latest CAPS would be interesting.

 

[Geardaddy]

Bad news. All we need is apparently a laptop: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-sonore-microrendu-streamer.577/

 

[Elberoth]

Hi Adam, did you end up getting one? Your thoughts vs latest CAPS would be interesting.

Yes, I did. The thing is tiny ! (the size of a cigarette pack)







I didn't have the time to try it though.

 

[microstrip]

Bad news. All we need is apparently a laptop: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-sonore-microrendu-streamer.577/

Bad news? I think they are excellent news - a noticeable reduction was found in the overall background noise and the mains artifacts are probably due to the power supply quality or grounding issues - a better one, such as a battery based supply will probably easily deal with them. If the microRendu was available for immediate delivery and shipped from Europe I would order one today!

 

[YashN]

All we need is apparently a laptop: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-sonore-microrendu-streamer.577/

He messed up his measurements, not knowing there are two totally different audio subsystems, one when using DLNA.

Secondly, he shows a graph using a linear power supply showing a better graph but comparing that to an iFi Power Supply.

That forum is where people with defective hearing go to shrivel up, and that guy isn't on this one here anymore but formerly I have seen very badly-made measurements posted here by the same guy, so why do you think anything posted there is unbiased and why are you still referring to it?

He doesn't understand how asynch USB works, nor how the Regen, of which an enhanced version is in the microRendu, works, so what makes you think he has any knowledge of how to measure some of the device's capabilities, especially since the designer who is a qualified and practising EE who has consistently churned out well-regarded audiophile products with different companies says this particular portion of the device is far from easy to measure?

What makes you even think for one minute 'all we need is a laptop' and that there is any credibility to these measurements at all?

 

[jkeny]

That forum sinks to new lows - in the middle of my head-to-head with Amir on that thread, Thomas Savage (mod) has removed my posting rights/my right of reply to posts without warning me

See here http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...nts-of-sonore-microrendu-streamer.577/page-13

The random meaningless noise has jumped up in this thread. Simple engineering to fix it.

Yep, sorted.

Sorry about that.

So I have to ask here because I will not be allowed to ask there - what is Amir afraid of that he has to get the mod to stop my posting rights (only on this thread) - losing the argument?

 

[jkeny]

Here's what I had written as a reply when my posting rights on that thread were pulled - I'm sorry to bring this over here but I feel it is worth exposing the lack of understanding that is at the heart of Amir's arrogance & the depths that the ASR forum has sunk to, to protect him from being exposed

As far as the the option of putting in more elaborate filtering, do you think that Berkeley designed their box size so that they could have the option of putting in caps & inductors to reduce mains hum or do you think they may have tested for this beforehand?

Again, you are not following what I wrote. microRendu is a different device than Berkeley. Measurements are showing that it has high susceptibility to power supply noise. Such noise can be post filtered in a device that is large enough to allow such filtering with ease. The data and theory of what is wrong, match.

Do you expect your audio devices to also isolate you from the ground loop that is apparent in your setup? The ground loop appears to be introduced by the iFi PS as I told you before but it takes two to tango in a ground loop issue.

We don't have such a situation with Berkeley. What we do have is my personal question while the Alpha was being designed in how they were going to do better audiophilleo. Michael's answer? "We have much more space so there is a lot more freedom for circuit optimization." Look at how spacious the layout of the Berkeley is:

What circuit optimization did they do late in the design process? i.e. what did the Berkeley designers not design in from the start i.e. that they needed this space freedom?

Notice the distance between AES/EBU on the left bottom and USB on the far right. Look at how much empty space there is and how the "dirty" USB side on the right is kept way away from the clean AES/EBU side.

And you really think that this is the Berkeley designer's answer to isolation? You do know that there is an ADUM isolator chip hiding under that metal bar & that this is where the isolation is taking place.

Now this is the audiophilleo:

There are no such luxuries.

Luxuries? What they couldn't put in an ADUM isolator? I'm sure they had considered it but didn't include it in their original design. It wasn't because they didn't have the room (luxury) in their design - this is a rather silly argument with all sorts of unfounded assumptions.

Adequate treatment of EMC is needed whether components are close together or not - that is engineering 101

You are not an engineer John so you can't wear that cloth. Reading stuff online is not the same as knowing what an engineering principle is or is not. In this case, availability of space to distance components absolutely is your friend when it comes to radiation induced noise. USB is whaling away with high power digital voltage swings. It acts like a radio transmitter. And as with any transmitter (including sound) the farther away you are from it, the less energy is coupled to your sensitive circuits. This is why in the isolation section of the Berkeley, you literally see an air gap to lower coupling even though the mostly inert PCB material.

You demonstrate that you really don't understand what you are talking about - which do you think radiates the most EMI, the chip or the pcb traces running between chips? The traces, of course. Now if you space high speed components widely what do you think you need to connect them - longer traces, of course. Radiated noise from traces can be attenuated by using guide traces alongside the signal carrying traces. Do you see these guide traces on the Berkeley pcb?

So quite contrary to your contention, spacing components wider apart is only adding to your emission issues

Of course there is a ton more involved in EMI compliance and design than this. So let's not go there where the basics are not understood.

Of course there is Amir & yes you should not post any more on this lest your claims of representing the "engineering" voice is exposed for what it is - smoke & mirrors

By the way, my laptop has FCC and CE compliance. Does microRendu? As you know, your side of the pond requires CE mark compliance for any products imported into EU. Without it, this device could be leaking a ton of EMI through its connectors.

Oh dear!

 

[Geardaddy]

Bad news? I think they are excellent news - a noticeable reduction was found in the overall background noise and the mains artifacts are probably due to the power supply quality or grounding issues - a better one, such as a battery based supply will probably easily deal with them. If the microRendu was available for immediate delivery and shipped from Europe I would order one today!

The better supply made it comparable to a laptop while the IFi injected noise. Given the Rendu's design elements, it was a little surprising how sensitive it was to PSs....

 

[Geardaddy]

He messed up his measurements, not knowing there are two totally different audio subsystems, one when using DLNA.

Secondly, he shows a graph using a linear power supply showing a better graph but comparing that to an iFi Power Supply.

That forum is where people with defective hearing go to shrivel up, and that guy isn't on this one here anymore but formerly I have seen very badly-made measurements posted here by the same guy, so why do you think anything posted there is unbiased and why are you still referring to it?

He doesn't understand how asynch USB works, nor how the Regen, of which an enhanced version is in the microRendu, works, so what makes you think he has any knowledge of how to measure some of the device's capabilities, especially since the designer who is a qualified and practising EE who has consistently churned out well-regarded audiophile products with different companies says this particular portion of the device is far from easy to measure?

What makes you even think for one minute 'all we need is a laptop' and that there is any credibility to these measurements at all?

My post was partially tongue in cheek. I posted his findings on CA and am awaiting Swenson's rebuttal and/or measurements. Would I would like to see is measurements in NAA mode and a comparison to an off the shelf NUC with PS.....

 

[Elberoth]

The better supply made it comparable to a laptop while the IFi injected noise. Given the Rendu's design elements, it was a little surprising how sensitive it was to PSs....

Yes, that was surprising. I would expect John Swenson to fix this issue in his latest design, as John Westlake (of Audiolab, Pink Triangle fame) has already shown that similar issue present in Regen (that was also a John Swenson design) can be easily fixed with adding just a few parts.

It is also surprising the see the iFi product underperforming.

 

[microstrip]

Mains induced interference at these very low levels is most of the time due to power supply leakage currents, grounding and the measurement techniques.
We can always expect that measurements in this particular aspect will be dominated by the power supply performance - power must use a DC path to enter the microRendu!

I could expect that subjectively this interference should be be small - it is locked to the noise that already exists in any amplifying system due to power mains. Just moving cables in our rack will create much larger variations of this noise than reported in the measurements.

 

[microstrip]

The better supply made it comparable to a laptop while the IFi injected noise. Given the Rendu's design elements, it was a little surprising how sensitive it was to PSs....

The proper diagnostic could be carried using it with a floating battery based supply. People have been using it in critical sections in optimized PC servers.

IMHO it is perhaps a question of design - the problem can be easily solved in the power supply and is elaborate to solve in the device, increasing size and/or cost. And the most important issue are the subjective effects - perhaps we are debating something that is not relevant to sound performance.

 

[jkeny]

I suspect that Amir has some grounding issues in his measurements setup & these are showing up in hi measurements when the right conditions arise. His own measurements showing 60Hz & related harmonic spikes should immediately signal such an issue was at play in the measurement system. The 8KHz spikes in his Regen tests were also a sign that he has some grounding issues, I believe.

Unfortunately, he seems reluctant to investigate this possibility instead he blames other devices for what is his system issue.

As to whether the microRendu should be immune to passing through such ground noise issues, I would suggest that devices are designed to work in normal setups - setups that have grounding issues should be fixed & normalised, it's not the job of the audio device to do this unless it's a specific design goal of the device

 

[FrantzM]

I suspect that Amir has some grounding issues in his measurements setup & these are showing up in hi measurements when the right conditions arise. His own measurements showing 60Hz & related harmonic spikes should immediately signal such an issue was at play in the measurement system. The 8KHz spikes in his Regen tests were also a sign that he has some grounding issues, I believe.

Unfortunately, he seems reluctant to investigate this possibility instead he blames other devices for what is his system issue.

As to whether the microRendu should be immune to passing through such ground noise issues, I would suggest that devices are designed to work in normal setups - setups that have grounding issues should be fixed & normalised, it's not the job of the audio device to do this unless it's a specific design goal of the device

AMir is more than capable of defending himself.
He measured and post his measurements. In a matter of measurements let's not "believe" let's measure and come up with our conclusions. Conjectures need to be put to test sop to speak. One at one point needs to provides one's own measurements infirm that of another person.

 

[microstrip]

AMir is more than capable of defending himself.
He measured and post his measurements. In a matter of measurements let's not "believe" let's measure and come up with our conclusions. Conjectures need to be put to test sop to speak. One at one point needs to provides one's own measurements infirm that of another person.

No need to argue any more Frantz. As far as I could just see Amir has since then posted new measurements, confirming what I have referred. Using a better power supply the interference problem was solved. The conjecture was true. Some day you should also replace your theoretical skepticism with measurements!

 

[Geardaddy]

The million dollar question is how it compares to a generic NUC with Gucci PS given the fact that performance seems to predicated on power.....