Entreq Tellus grounding,in england

[amirm]

Thanks Amir.
Appreciate that

You guys are too polite. There has to be a sanction for that in the ToS some place....

 

[BE718]

I know what the Intona does & how it does it - I also know it's design weaknesses for it's role in audio (which it was never designed for) - you obviously don't



No misunderstanding on my part - but I see ample evidence of your claims which you now try to deny "if these boxes are genuinely creating benefit due to improving the "grounding" of your system then yes there quite obviously is something deficient in its grounding regime." and later "if it is a problem in your system then use cheap cable to link the units. An expensive box with bent bits of copper and kitty litter inside is totally unnecessary and certainly less effective."

Come on JK, then please explain what these weaknesses apparently are, just like I asked you to do in the previous post. Then we can debate those alleged weaknesses.

What evidence, what denials?

 

[Barry2013]

You guys are too polite. There has to be a sanction for that in the ToS some place....

Some of us need to set an example!

 

[YashN]

Can you adjust it, and then compare?

I compared in my system (Audirvana+, iFi iDSD Nano): the 'w Entreq' audio has more texture and micro-details, notably in the beginning, after the initial sound, there's a brassy sound which has more lower-frequency weight and overall texture than the other file.

Overall, the soundstage appears bigger as well.

Now, I cannot purchase an Entreq myself, but when I was studying the subject of clean power/AC filtering, and grounding (both chassis and signal) over in a thread at CA and with supplies at my place, I built my own very rudimentary solution using braided shielding as 'grounding' cable as well as a piece of copper tubing for, presumably, signal 'grounding'.

At that time, it was the best sound I could muster in my system, ever, no doubt also helped by the two or three other enhancements I was testing simultaneously: Clean AC, Vibration control, Chassis grounding. It would necessitate that I do this 'signal grounding' tweak in isolation to pin-point its sole effect, but I have no doubt it helped in my system.

Worth a try if you like DIY or are budget-conscious or budget-restrained.

AFAI understand: you may not find any effect from such 'signal grounding' boxes in your system if you do not have an issue with grounding or noise appearing unwelcome near your signal (e.g. you're less likely to hear anything if you're already using balanced power, or balanced signal) in your existing equipment.

 

[Folsom]

That's assuming it's a grounding issue. I'm not convinced that it is.

 

[YashN]

That's assuming it's a grounding issue. I'm not convinced that it is.

Have you ever heard of noise appearing near the signal outputs in an unbalanced audio system, at all?

Noise that shouldn't be there in the first place?

Call it 'grounding' if you prefer because technically it may not be proper terminology but it appears it is quite analogous to how grounding works.

 

[Blizzard]

Have you ever heard of noise appearing near the signal outputs in an unbalanced audio system, at all?

Noise that shouldn't be there in the first place?

Call it 'grounding' if you prefer because technically it may not be proper terminology but it appears it is quite analogous to how grounding works.

I think the problem is most of the guys experiencing the performance gains are using single ended connections. The highest priced gear isn't balanced. Too expensive to implement.

 

[YashN]

I think the problem is most of the guys experiencing the performance gains are using single ended connections.

Exactly what I meant in the last paragraph of post 224.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think the problem is most of the guys experiencing the performance gains are using single ended connections. The highest priced gear isn't balanced. Too expensive to implement.

2 points.

maybe the designers found that at the top of the food chain many times (not always) single ended sounded better.....when that is the result of their investigation.

and how much 'highest priced gear' have you heard to infer that it's better balanced? pardon me if I'm misunderstanding the point you are making.

I don't really care one way or the other about balanced or not....and have no dog in that fight. I'm for whatever sounds best for particular gear and systems. my personal experience is that single ended generally seems closer to the real music to my ears. but that is simply what I've been exposed to.

only someone designing a particular circuit and that has the opportunity to design it both ways, single ended and balanced, and then compare, can say for sure which is better. you cannot remove the circuit context from the interconnect geometry.

and for what it's worth; in my system the fully balanced Trinity dac with XLR Tara Labs Grandmaster interconnects, the cable grounding and the Entreq are both very effective and the result was astonishing. so trying to limit the Entreq or grounding improvements to single ended environments is a non starter in my experience.

 

[YashN]

so trying to limit the Entreq or grounding improvements to single ended environments is a non starter in my experience.

It's more a case of 'more likely' rather than 'limit'ing IMO.

 

[Folsom]

Speaker cables radiate the most.

Mike would you be kind as to connect your entreq on the front of your appliances instead of rear? Also does placement matter? What happens if it's centered in front of stereo, or if it's off to either side, any difference?

 

[rockitman]

2 points.

maybe the designers found that at the top of the food chain many times (not always) single ended sounded better.....when that is the result of their investigation.

and how much 'highest priced gear' have you heard to infer that it's better balanced? pardon me if I'm misunderstanding the point you are making.

I don't really care one way or the other about balanced or not....and have no dog in that fight. I'm for whatever sounds best for particular gear and systems. my personal experience is that single ended generally seems closer to the real music to my ears. but that is simply what I've been exposed to.

only someone designing a particular circuit and that has the opportunity to design it both ways, single ended and balanced, and then compare, can say for sure which is better. you cannot remove the circuit context from the interconnect geometry.

and for what it's worth; in my system the fully balanced Trinity dac with XLR Tara Labs Grandmaster interconnects, the cable grounding and the Entreq are both very effective and the result was astonishing. so trying to limit the Entreq or grounding improvements to single ended environments is a non starter in my experience.

My system is balanced and Entreq improves the listening experience. Another data point for the naysayer peanut gallery.

 

[Folsom]

Easy Rocket, some of us are just curious.

 

[Blizzard]

2 points.

maybe the designers found that at the top of the food chain many times (not always) single ended sounded better.....when that is the result of their investigation.


and how much 'highest priced gear' have you heard to infer that it's better balanced? pardon me if I'm misunderstanding the point you are making.

I don't really care one way or the other about balanced or not....and have no dog in that fight. I'm for whatever sounds best for particular gear and systems. my personal experience is that single ended generally seems closer to the real music to my ears. but that is simply what I've been exposed to.

only someone designing a particular circuit and that has the opportunity to design it both ways, single ended and balanced, and then compare, can say for sure which is better. you cannot remove the circuit context from the interconnect geometry.

and for what it's worth; in my system the fully balanced Trinity dac with XLR Tara Labs Grandmaster interconnects, the cable grounding and the Entreq are both very effective and the result was astonishing. so trying to limit the Entreq or grounding improvements to single ended environments is a non starter in my experience.

Well the problem is it costs near twice as much for the internal boards to make a proper fully balanced system. This is why you see lots of products offer single ends only options. It's not because single ended improves performance, or balanced degrades performance.

I have been playing around with both single ended and balanced in my own system and find the balanced to be superior for the many obvious well known reasons.

Did you compare the Entreq boxes to a proper star grounding setup with copper stakes pounded into the ground yet?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Speaker cables radiate the most.

I do use the Entreq Poseidon which is connected to the negative speaker terminals. it makes a subtle positive difference to my ears.

Mike would you be kind as to connect your entreq on the front of your appliances instead of rear? Also does placement matter? What happens if it's centered in front of stereo, or if it's off to either side, any difference?

I've not experimented with 'location' of the Entreq boxes themselves if that is what you are asking. but if you are wanting for me to have them connected to the front of my gear, I will point out that Entreq is primarily intended to be for 'signal path' grounding, not chassis grounding. unused output jacks are only on the rear faceplates.

my Tripoint Troy Signature is a chassis grounding product; and I have it connected to either a grounding post, or chassis screws, or my stainless steel tt arm board with one of the attachment screws. I suppose I could find a chassis screw on the front of my gear in some cases. is that what you are asking?

I apologize if I've misunderstood your question.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Well the problem is it costs near twice as much for the internal boards to make a proper fully balanced system. This is why you see lots of products offer single ends only options. It's not because single ended improves performance, or balanced degrades performance.

and you know that 'lots of products offer single ends only options' due to cost......how do you know that? have you spoken to designers of high priced products and they have told you that? or are you assuming that? I'm not saying you are wrong, only wondering whether your point is a guess or do you actually know?

my perspective is that you are connecting a few too many dots without really knowing.

I have been playing around with both single ended and balanced in my own system and find the balanced to be superior for the many obvious well known reasons.

Did you compare the Entreq boxes to a proper star grounding setup with copper stakes pounded into the ground yet?

no; I've not done any experimentation with that. and have no plans to. OTOH my Equi=tech 10WQ 10kva isolation transformer wall panel system has it's own grounding rod in the ground right outside my room; and all the gear that is plugged into my power grid is grounded into that. so I'm already enjoying the benefits of that to begin with.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It's more a case of 'more likely' rather than 'limit'ing IMO.

that makes sense. common mode noise rejection is very real. I agree that assuming there is noise to be rid of, a balanced circuit will do that better than a single ended circuit. but......there is always a but.......will the additional circuitry needed for balanced take something of the music away? that is sometimes my experience and why, I think, at the top of the food chain we find lots of non-balanced (not always technically single ended) circuits.

BTW;my Equi=tech 10WQ isolation transformer outputs balanced power for that reason. so even my single ended components are using 'balanced' power that is quieter through common mode noise rejection.

 

[Blizzard]

and you know that 'lots of products offer single ends only options' due to cost......how do you know that? have you spoken to designers of high priced products and they have told you that? or are you assuming that? I'm not saying you are wrong, only wondering whether your point is a guess or do you actually know?

my perspective is that you are connecting a few too many dots without really knowing.



no; I've not done any experimentation with that. and have no plans to. OTOH my Equi=tech 10WQ 10kva isolation transformer wall panel system has it's own grounding rod in the ground right outside my room; and all the gear that is plugged into my power grid is grounded into that. so I'm already enjoying the benefits of that to begin with.

I know this because I know how these products are built, and what goes into building a balanced system vs a single ended system. You need to double most of the parts up. Why do you think products that have both options always charge more for the balanced versions?

So you're only using a single ground rod? Maybe you should try a true star ground system. I bet you can find someone who would set that up for you at a cost probably 20x less than what you have into all of your grounding boxes.

I also bet a simple $100 USB interface board upgrade in your GG would be more beneficial than all of your grounding boxes combined as well. You must have over $100000 into all these boxes alone.

Has anyone ever tried out these? Seems a bit more cost effective:


http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/grounding-devices-2/

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I know this because I know how these products are built, and what goes into building a balanced system vs a single ended system. You need to double most of the parts up. Why do you think products that have both options always charge more for the balanced versions?

sorry; a general familiarity about how things are built is a different thing than reading the mind of a high end audio designer. but I can see you have a strong grip on your omnipotence on this issue so i'll just withdraw from further discussion about it.

So you're only using a single ground rod? Maybe you should try a true star ground system. I bet you can find someone who would set that up for you at a cost probably 20x less than what you have into all of your grounding boxes.

I also bet a simple $100 USB interface board upgrade in your GG would be more beneficial than all of your grounding boxes combined as well. You must have over $100000 into all these boxes alone.

Has anyone ever tried out these? Seems a bit more cost effective:

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/grounding-devices-2/

thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Blizzard]

sorry; a general familiarity about how things are built is a different thing than reading the mind of a high end audio designer. but I can see you have a strong grip on your omnipotence on this issue so i'll just withdraw from further discussion about it.

thank you for the suggestion.

I don't think it's even up for debate from any engineer on the planet that going balanced is a better way to go. The only thing up for debate is if the cost of doubling up the internal circuitry is justifiable vs the performance gains. We need to consider that the end price the consumer pays for a product is on average 6x the cost of the parts to build it. On some of the big name stuff, much higher than that. So they have 2 choices, take a hit on profit (who wants to do that?) or sell it for much much more. At the price point it would have to be at building it balanced, it may reduce the sales that it gets vs the price point of making it single ended. In the end it could likely be detrimental to the bottom line. Better to put the extra money into something like the case instead. This is how most judge the quality of audio gear.

This is the real reason.

Yeah I was reading a great article on star grounding for an audio system and the wonderful benefits it brought. But I can't find it now. You will never get a better ground than the earth itself. There's also chemicals you can pour around the ground rod to help with the conduction. Keeping it wet also helps. Run the irrigation system on the ground rods as well. You could probably use moisture sensors to automatically maintain the perfect level of ground moisture around the rods.