Trinity DAC

[Al M.]

Al,

again; sorry for the delay in my response. busy, busy.

I can't say about the Berkeley, but I am now a big time believer in 44.1/16-Redbook as a completely worthy format in every way. but I would add that it takes some great engineering and likely high $$$'s to be able to enjoy that.

if you read this description about how the Trinity adds analog points to the upsampling and the value of it's very expensive clocks....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12023-Trinity-DAC&p=238265&viewfull=1#post238265

and this post about how the Trinity differs from conventional dacs....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12023-Trinity-DAC&p=244005&viewfull=1#post244005

I think that you begin to appreciate what it takes to take PCM beyond it's weak aspects. it can be done but the efforts are considerable.

i'm going to guess that the Berkeley has it's own tricks to overcome these same challenges.

enjoy!

Mike,

thanks for the reply. Yes, the Berkeley Alpha DAC has its own tricks, but there is no doubt that the Trinity DAC is the superior design. The Berkeley Reference DAC is another beast than my regular Alpha DAC altogether, since it uses highly advanced clocking like the Trinity does, but I do not know how it would compare in sound quality (it might very well be that the Trinity is superior still). In any case, the resolution of the Berkeley Alpha DAC is good enough to convince me of the worth of the CD format, in the sense that it has much more resolution than I had given the format credit for -- and it should have more potential still than the Berkeley Alpha DAC allows you to hear, a potential that probably the Trinity DAC unlocks to a greater extent.

Regardless, I enjoy my CDs very much. The vividness of presentation is excellent through my DAC, as is the lack of fatigue and digital harshness, and like you I have spent considerable effort on getting room acoustics right. The latest acoustic upgrades (ASC window plugs; i have lots of windows) allow me to hear much more timbral resolution from the Berkeley DAC, and the CD format in general, than it had been the case before; a particularly good example for progress in resolution is solo violin. Also, some hardness on solo strings playing at high volume that I previously had attributed to digital was simply the result of unresolved problems with room acoustics which have now been addressed.

I am now a big time believer in 44.1/16-Redbook as a completely worthy format in every way.

That is great to hear. You also say that higher-rez PCM is better still -- how much better in your opinion?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

thanks for the reply. Yes, the Berkeley Alpha DAC has its own tricks, but there is no doubt that the Trinity DAC is the superior design. The Berkeley Reference DAC is another beast than my regular Alpha DAC altogether, since it uses highly advanced clocking like the Trinity does, but I do not know how it would compare in sound quality (it might very well be that the Trinity is superior still). In any case, the resolution of the Berkeley Alpha DAC is good enough to convince me of the worth of the CD format, in the sense that it has much more resolution than I had given the format credit for -- and it should have more potential still than the Berkeley Alpha DAC allows you to hear, a potential that probably the Trinity DAC unlocks to a greater extent.

Regardless, I enjoy my CDs very much. The vividness of presentation is excellent through my DAC, as is the lack of fatigue and digital harshness, and like you I have spent considerable effort on getting room acoustics right. The latest acoustic upgrades (ASC window plugs; i have lots of windows) allow me to hear much more timbral resolution from the Berkeley DAC, and the CD format in general, than it had been the case before; a particularly good example for progress in resolution is solo violin. Also, some hardness on solo strings playing at high volume that I previously had attributed to digital was simply the result of unresolved problems with room acoustics which have now been addressed.

totally agree that it is so hard to assign cause and effect unless you tame the room issues. no question that musical textures such as massed strings are masked by reflective energy in an untreated room. and any slight digital edge gets multiplied by reflective hash.....which also tends to change the tonal balance adding high frequency energy.

the combination of acoustic balance in the room and a better digital source gets one a long ways.

That is great to hear. You also say that higher-rez PCM is better still -- how much better in your opinion?

i think 176khz/24 and 192khz/24 seem to be 'sometimes' much better, even occasionally astonishingly good. 88khz/24 and 96khz/24 a bit less so.....even 48khz better than 44khz. but it's just that each level simply seems to have blacker backgrounds, degrees more textural nuance and delicacy, more ease and 'see into' refinement. but it's really too soon to have fully formed opinions as many of the files i have are of mixed sources. so these opinions are provisional at this point. as i acquire more hi rez i'll likely get a more definite opinion about it.

but make no mistake that with the Trinity dac higher sampling rates are better than lower generally. you hear farther into the music.

it's more than a subtle difference. however, like always the very best recordings are outstanding regardless of format frequency response.

 

[Audiocrack]

Hi Audiocrack,

Seems the Zanden 4-box continues to be Marc Michelson's favorite CD combo system. From The Audio Beat Letters today:

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/letters.htm

"Zanden 5000S "still a good option"?

September 4, 2015

Marc,

I have a Zanden Model 6000 integrated amplifier with Raidho D1 speakers and would kindly ask you for advice regarding a DAC. Do you believe the Zanden Model 5000S is still a good option (I know it has no USB input and that I need converter)? Is it better than or at least competitive with DACs like the new Zanden Model 500 or the Nagra HD or perhaps Auralic Vega (I know the last one is not in the same league but with great price/quality ratio)? As a source, I have a Mac mini with a Musical Fidelity Vlink2 DAC and perhaps somewhere in the future I will change the source for an Aurender N10 or Auralic Aries, which both have AES/EBU output. Yes, I also have HD music files.

Darko Hrastnik

I still think very highly of the Zanden 5000S DAC -- it remains part of my favorite CD playback combo. However, you hint at the issues with it in today's audio climate: no USB input, so you will need an input/output converter like the Halide Design USB Bridge, and no playback of high-resolution files, because it handles only CD resolution. If you plan to use it in that capacity -- for playing CDs and ripped CDs -- then you'll have a superior DAC in my opinion. However, if you want to use it for playing high-resolution PCM or DSD files, you'll need to look elsewhere. In this case, my first choice would the the Ayre QB-9 DSD, although the Zanden 500 would be interesting too. I just haven't heard it, so I don't know how close it comes to the mighty 5000S. -Marc Mickelson"

Hi Lloyd, Marc was one of the reviewers I had in mind when I referred to reviewers loving the Zanden combo. I consider him one of the best and most trustworthy reviewers, not only because he has good ears but in particular because he is one (of the very few?) reviewer with great integrity. Thanks for referring to Marc's answer and imo he is right: the Zanden combo plays redbook beautifully.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

as a side note my son completed the new server build tonight, and will install the server software tomorrow. by tomorrow night i should hear where the potential of the Trinity (and Playback Designs ) might be when fed with the current ultimate server ideal (according to some). I'm excited to hear how big a step that is.

i am using the Totaldac USB cable + an Uptone Regen now with my old server. i have 4 of the Audioquest Jitterbugs on hand to experiment with once the new server is up and running. i tried the Jitterbugs in various ways with the old server; so far i did not like what i heard. but with so much new stuff i need to be more methodical about trying such marginal tweaks. i need a base line established first.

 

[Audiocrack]

totally agree that it is so hard to assign cause and effect unless you tame the room issues. no question that musical textures such as massed strings are masked by reflective energy in an untreated room. and any slight digital edge gets multiplied by reflective hash.....which also tends to change the tonal balance adding high frequency energy.

the combination of acoustic balance in the room and a better digital source gets one a long ways.



i think 176khz/24 and 192khz/24 seem to be 'sometimes' much better, even occasionally astonishingly good. 88khz/24 and 96khz/24 a bit less so.....even 48khz better than 44khz. but it's just that each level simply seems to have blacker backgrounds, degrees more textural nuance and delicacy, more ease and 'see into' refinement. but it's really too soon to have fully formed opinions as many of the files i have are of mixed sources. so these opinions are provisional at this point. as i acquire more hi rez i'll likely get a more definite opinion about it.

but make no mistake that with the Trinity dac higher sampling rates are better than lower generally. you hear farther into the music.

You are right Mike, the quality of (in my case) the Trinity dac/Trinity drive is such that you can very clearly note the (quality) differences between (i) recording venues, (ii) recording engineers and (iii) recording formats. Normally, the 24/192 or 24/176.4 recordings sound the most impressive but there are Quite some sensational 24/96 recordings such as eg from the Chandos and Carpe Diem labels. Btw, I listed quite a few of them in the thread 'stunning sounding high res files' a while back.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You are right Mike, the quality of (in my case) the Trinity dac/Trinity drive is such that you can very clearly note the (quality) differences between (i) recording venues, (ii) recording engineers and (iii) recording formats. Normally, the 24/192 or 24/176.4 recordings sound the most impressive but there are Quite some sensational 24/96 recordings such as eg from the Chandos and Carpe Diem labels. Btw, I listed quite a few of them in the thread 'stunning sounding high res files' a while back.

Audiocrack, that is very exciting to hear you say based on your level of experience with the Trinity. don't know that my new server will be quite as synergistic with the Trinity DAC as the Trinity PC & Drive but I hope it comes close.

 

[wisnon]

as a side note my son completed the new server build tonight, and will install the server software tomorrow. by tomorrow night i should hear where the potential of the Trinity (and Playback Designs ) might be when fed with the current ultimate server ideal (according to some). I'm excited to hear how big a step that is.

i am using the Totaldac USB cable + an Uptone Regen now with my old server. i have 4 of the Audioquest Jitterbugs on hand to experiment with once the new server is up and running. i tried the Jitterbugs in various ways with the old server; so far i did not like what i heard. but with so much new stuff i need to be more methodical about trying such marginal tweaks. i need a base line established first.

YESSSSS!!!! Buckle up Mike....

 

[wisnon]

Audiocrack, that is very exciting to hear you say based on your level of experience with the Trinity. don't know that my new server will be quite as synergistic with the Trinity DAC as the Trinity PC & Drive but I hope it comes close.

Well, ACrack has both the Trinity drive and a similar server to what you built, so could test them, but it may be a PITA to make the swap out as they are in 2 separate systems. the quality of the server will be at least close and is how Elberoth feeds his TRINITY dac.

 

[Audiocrack]

Well, ACrack has both the Trinity drive and a similar server to what you built, so could test them, but it may be a PITA to make the swap out as they are in 2 separate systems. the quality of the server will be at least close and is how Elberoth feeds his TRINITY dac.

Hello Wisnon, yes that will be indeed a PITA so for now I have no plans in this direction.

Btw, yesterday I inserted a completely new top of the line Taralabs Grandmaster evolution between the Lampi GG dac and my repaired Kondo m1000 mk i preamp. These Taralabs ic's are the finest interconnects that I have heard so far in my two systems (and elsewhere. For a very recent rave review of its little sister by Marshall Nack I refer to the Positive-feedback website). Of course the cable needs much more playing hours in order to be able to draw final conclusions and furthermore everything else needs to settle again after rearranging the complete set up (apart from the LA loudspeakers). I already hear great things, although I am also not completely convinced in all respects.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike - I think congrats are in order !

thank you, Adam.

and thank you for all the help along the way with the Trinity dac.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes...Mike, Congrats are in order!!! have read nothing but superlatives about Trinity! And yes, when the right equipment comes along, it really does make itself (ironically) secondary...because the music takes first place.

thanks Lloyd.

to me the best gear seems to get out of the way of the music in the most complete way. it's the music being released that is the payoff. and in this case the format has artifacts that get in the way of the musical message that have to be dealt with.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

A new Trinitarian is born!

true that!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hello Wisnon, yes that will be indeed a PITA so for now I have no plans in this direction.

Btw, yesterday I inserted a completely new top of the line Taralabs Grandmaster evolution between the Lampi GG dac and my repaired Kondo m1000 mk i preamp. These Taralabs ic's are the finest interconnects that I have heard so far in my two systems (and elsewhere. For a very recent rave review of its little sister by Marshall Nack I refer to the Positive-feedback website). Of course the cable needs much more playing hours in order to be able to draw final conclusions and furthermore everything else needs to settle again after rearranging the complete set up (apart from the LA loudspeakers). I already hear great things, although I am also not completely convinced in all respects.

thanks Audiocrack, I will keep your cable info in mind when it's time to do that.

the piggy bank (my nerve to spend) is empty (and my SWMBO's tolerance pushed to the limit with acquisitions) for cables for now. I'd like to jump into the deep end of the pool on cables but am using very modest, $300-$500, Acoustic Zen 1m XLR's I've had laying around for years. I don't even recall why I bought them it's been so long. all my comments are based on those interconnects so far. the Playbacks Design is still using a very fine Evolution Acoustics 'zeel' BNC set of interconnects.

for the last 4-5 years I've simply not thought about cables at all.....it's been nice. but now it will be in the back of my mind knowing I need to do it.

I know that a future jump in performance with the Trinity is there for the taking when I get up the nerve to take the cable upgrade plunge.

 

[Steve Williams]

thanks Audiocrack, I will keep your cable info in mind when it's time to do that.

the piggy bank (my nerve to spend) is empty (and my SWMBO's tolerance pushed to the limit with acquisitions) for cables for now. I'd like to jump into the deep end of the pool on cables but am using very modest, $300-$500, Acoustic Zen 1m XLR's I've had laying around for years. I don't even recall why I bought them it's been so long. all my comments are based on those interconnects so far. the Playbacks Design is still using a very fine Evolution Acoustics 'zeel' BNC set of interconnects.

for the last 4-5 years I've simply not thought about cables at all.....it's been nice. but now it will be in the back of my mind knowing I need to do it.

I know that a future jump in performance with the Trinity is there for the taking when I get up the nerve to take the cable upgrade plunge.

Mike


huge congratulations to you. As Caesar said you continue to be on the bleeding edge in this hobby. I love reading about all of your journeys and the fun that you're having. This is what for me it's all about.

I might have missed the explanation but is there a reason that the Trinity demands a different network. What is different about the new one as compared to what you had before. Are you still playing hires PCM via your USB-X into the PD DAC?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike


huge congratulations to you. As Caesar said you continue to be on the bleeding edge in this hobby. I love reading about all of your journeys and the fun that you're having. This is what for me it's all about.

thanks Steve. it's been fun. going to new ground and having a new horizon open in front of me feeds my hunger for the hobby. not that my analog side cannot improve.....but I know there was better to pursue on the digital side.

I might have missed the explanation but is there a reason that the Trinity demands a different network. What is different about the new one as compared to what you had before. Are you still playing hires PCM via your USB-X into the PD DAC?

the Trinity is absolutely fine with the network I had, as is the Playback Designs using the USB-X. no need to change.......but the state of the art of music servers and connectivity has moved forward. and it's really a matter of 'if I'm going to invest in better digital performance, I need to upgrade all the steps in the chain to find out what is possible. and the cheapest performance upgrade is the server and periphery of related things......at the level of dacs I'm using. it would be like having an F1 car with mud and snow tires on it. the old server is an anchor holding the performance back.

here are steps I've taken so far on the 'bit delivery' side of things.

(1) I've always had the server and NAS hard drive box upstairs, to keep the noise and clutter out of the listening room, in the rec room above my listening room. it's used a 40' long CAT5e cable and USB over Ethernet extender. the first thing I did last week was to move the server downstairs (staying connected to the NAS upstairs over the network) so I can use a 2m USB cable. nice improvement just doing that step. however; that does add a small amount of constant fan noise in my room. I don't hardly hear it at the listening position with the music playing. if I'm ripping discs then the fan speed increases and it's very audible.
(2) bought a Totaldac USB cable and Uptone Regen USB. about equal improvement as moving the server downstairs, maybe better. and not that expensive. so far I've only bought the new USB cable for the Trinity as I'm not sure how long a USB cable I might need for my 'next?' dsd dac.

that is what I'm listening to right now. and these things don't change the Playback's USB-X box.

as I mentioned; my son has completed the build on the new CAPS v4 Pipeline 'hot-rodded' server and is loading the software this morning. I'm expecting big things when I plug that into the system for both the Trinity and Playbacks (or whatever might better the Playbacks in the future). maybe a $5k + or - total investment in parts + whatever favors I will owe my son.

btw; the CAPS v.4 box looks like an audio component and is fan-less so totally quiet. there are two outboard Linear Power Supply boxes i'll use with it to keep that heat out of the server case.

there are other plug and play server upgrades out there on the server side such as the Aurender W20 or the Trinity PC & Drive which are 4x as expensive ($20k) which are choices and come with support......and some for quite a bit less with somewhat less performance. if I did not have my son to guide me that is how I would have likely proceeded. I do see the CAPS v4 Pipeline as more (not perfectly) future-proof than those 'closed system' choices.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

my new CAPS v4 with Teradak LPS and a few other upgrades is now installed. the Win Server 2012 R2 Standard Edition operating system is installed and JRiver is updated from version 18 to 21. 'Audiophile Optimizer' is still not installed but it's purchased. it took a few hours this afternoon to get things fully up and running on both dacs and work thru the interactivity for Jremote and the dac switching details. it's all good now. I'm still short the Uptone JS-2 LPS but it's going to be another 30 days to get that.

my other server was not really chopped liver, so just how big a jump in performance was it?

OMG!!! EPIC!

the noise floor fell far into nothingness. vocals and instruments are much more expressive. quite a bit more dynamic and alive sounding. 'more vivid' fails to articulate the difference. this change jumps out at you. and that goes for the holographic nature of the soundstage, it's much more a "reach out and touch" kinda soundstage. it was good in all these areas before......so this change is remarkable.

if you look at how many things in this server are optimized you would expect that it takes things quite a ways forward. and you would be right. hard to imagine what the Audiophile Optimizer and that Uptone JS-2 LPS will take things even further.....and maybe the Jitterbugs could help more too.

these perceptions are almost all with the Trinity dac, the little I listened to the Playback Design it was much improved too but I need to spend more time to say much on that issue.

 

[Frank750]

So Mike, not sure if anyone has asked you yet, how does this new set up compare to your vinyl?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So Mike, not sure if anyone has asked you yet, how does this new set up compare to your vinyl?

I've not listened to vinyl much in the last few weeks with my time with the Trinity dac, and now today the new server. i'd say 'preliminarily to more listening' overall how I view the big picture at this moment is that with the Trinity doing PCM it has caught up to dsd and 2xdsd which still trailed vinyl clearly. good pressings on top level vinyl gear crosses over a point where digital just can't go. has the new server boosted dsd/2xdsd closer to vinyl? you would think it would have. but I cannot say that yet.

I'm looking forward to enjoying the music more than ever with a wider choice of great sounding and emotionally involving PCM recordings which I had been mostly ignoring. so even if vinyl is still clearly better, musically PCM is now fully relevant in my daily experience. a very very good thing indeed.

 

[Audiocrack]

my new CAPS v4 with Teradak LPS and a few other upgrades is now installed. the Win Server 2012 R2 Standard Edition operating system is installed and JRiver is updated from version 18 to 21. 'Audiophile Optimizer' is still not installed but it's purchased. it took a few hours this afternoon to get things fully up and running on both dacs and work thru the interactivity for Jremote and the dac switching details. it's all good now. I'm still short the Uptone JS-2 LPS but it's going to be another 30 days to get that.

my other server was not really chopped liver, so just how big a jump in performance was it?

OMG!!! EPIC!

the noise floor fell far into nothingness. vocals and instruments are much more expressive. quite a bit more dynamic and alive sounding. 'more vivid' fails to articulate the difference. this change jumps out at you. and that goes for the holographic nature of the soundstage, it's much more a "reach out and touch" kinda soundstage. it was good in all these areas before......so this change is remarkable.

if you look at how many things in this server are optimized you would expect that it takes things quite a ways forward. and you would be right. hard to imagine what the Audiophile Optimizer and that Uptown LPS will take things even further.....and maybe the Jitterbugs could help more too.

these perceptions are almost all with the Trinity dac, the little I listened to the Playback Design it was much improved too but I need to spend more time to say much on that issue.

I am not surprised at all because I knew this would happen (see my prediction in one of my earlier replies in this thread). I am very happy for you and I hope that your great enthusiasm opens the eyes and ears of more (serious) audiophiles. The Trinity dac is - as Adam and myself have explained before in this thread - not only a beautiful sounding pcm dac but also an extremely well made piece of equipment that is very reliable. Mike, enjoy yourself: the Trinity dac will continuously show you how good pcm can really sound.

 

[Elberoth]

The moral of the story is as follows: do not ignore your computer, if you want to use it as your transport. Everyone that is still usig their MacBooks, Mac Minis or regular PC desktops / servers to play files - you don't know what you are missing !

Mike - there is more to come from the Audiophile Optimizer software and Uptone Audio linear PSU. If you gonna use your CAPS only for playing music (not for CD ripping or internet surfing) install the Audiophile Optimizer in Core Mode. This will turn your CAPS into an appliance, with no Windows desktop - only with Jriver. You will be able to use it without the monitor altogether - only with an iPad.

BTW - the computer Mike has just put together can be bought ready built, fully configured, with 24 months remote support from Lampizator, as a 'DSD Komputer' server: http://www.lampizator.eu/Fikus/KOMPUTER_-_MUSIC_SERVER.html

Mike's is even better, as it uses the Teradak ATX linear PSU instead of HD Plex single rail linear PSU (but I'm sure you can order ?ukasz to built you one with Teradak too). Mike's built will also use the Uptone Audio linear PSU to power the Jcat USB card, as the Trinity DAC uses USB +5V power (Lampis don't).