Digital that sounds like analog

[opus111]

Ah but your DAC has a built in filter so the downstream stuff is far less critical than if the filter weren't present.

What to look for is an input stage which is very linear down at lower levels and also linear up to high frequencies, beyond those in the audio band. Valves would normally qualify at the top, discrete JFETs would come next, discrete bipolars after that and integrated circuits which don't use long-tailed pairs. The bottom of the pile would be normal opamps with low-noise, long-tailed pair input stages.

Alternatively, sufficient passive filtering prior to any active stages might work well too.

<edit> I've added a technical paper which gives (to me at any rate) a very satisfying technical reason for why normal opamps aren't very linear up to high frequencies.

 

[LL21]

Ah but your DAC has a built in filter so the downstream stuff is far less critical than if the filter weren't present.

What to look for is an input stage which is very linear down at lower levels and also linear up to high frequencies, beyond those in the audio band. Valves would normally qualify at the top, discrete JFETs would come next, discrete bipolars after that and integrated circuits which don't use long-tailed pairs. The bottom of the pile would be normal opamps with low-noise, long-tailed pair input stages.

Alternatively, sufficient passive filtering prior to any active stages might work well too.

thanks, Opus111. Interesting...so the Zanden analog filter makes it less critical. fortunately, i think the CJ GAT sounds quite good with it in any event.

 

[opus111]

The most dynamic Beethoven symphonies I've so far heard - cracking tempos too : http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Arleen-Auger/dp/B000004CYT/

 

[LL21]

The most dynamic Beethoven symphonies I've so far heard - cracking tempos too : http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Arleen-Auger/dp/B000004CYT/

have you heard the remastered karajan '63? Also, have you heard the Sir Christopher Hogwood Handel's Messiah?...excellet.

 

[opus111]

I have some of Karajan's Beethoven Symphs in the box I've recommended already - lovely! Not sure what the date is though. As for versions of Messiah, I have two and one is pants on CD (Philips I think - used to have this on boxed LP, got it one Xmas) the other much better. Don't think either is Hogwood's though - will look out for him. Can't get too much of Messiah, I've sung in it many times.

Today's CD recommendation is a most beautiful Chopin (EMI) disc by Ingrid Fliter here : http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Ballade-Waltzes-Mazurkas-Barcarolle/dp/B0013KJAP2/

The resonant sonority of the piano captured on this disc is quite extraordinary, though perhaps its just that my new chipamp is doing better justice to it than the old integrated. Yummy playing from Ms Fliter who I understand to be a protegee of Marta Argerich who for my money is the one of the top three living pianists. Ingrid is certainly a rising star, I look forward to many more discs from her.

 

[LL21]

I have some of Karajan's Beethoven Symphs in the box I've recommended already - lovely! Not sure what the date is though. As for versions of Messiah, I have two and one is pants on CD (Philips I think - used to have this on boxed LP, got it one Xmas) the other much better. Don't think either is Hogwood's though - will look out for him. Can't get too much of Messiah, I've sung in it many times.

Today's CD recommendation is a most beautiful Chopin (EMI) disc by Ingrid Fliter here : http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Ballade-Waltzes-Mazurkas-Barcarolle/dp/B0013KJAP2/

The resonant sonority of the piano captured on this disc is quite extraordinary, though perhaps its just that my new chipamp is doing better justice to it than the old integrated. Yummy playing from Ms Fliter who I understand to be a protegee of Marta Argerich who for my money is the one of the top three living pianists. Ingrid is certainly a rising star, I look forward to many more discs from her.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0085U0GYW/ref=wms_ohs_product_img

This one is quite nice.

 

[LL21]

I have some of Karajan's Beethoven Symphs in the box I've recommended already - lovely! Not sure what the date is though. As for versions of Messiah, I have two and one is pants on CD (Philips I think - used to have this on boxed LP, got it one Xmas) the other much better. Don't think either is Hogwood's though - will look out for him. Can't get too much of Messiah, I've sung in it many times.

Today's CD recommendation is a most beautiful Chopin (EMI) disc by Ingrid Fliter here : http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Ballade-Waltzes-Mazurkas-Barcarolle/dp/B0013KJAP2/

The resonant sonority of the piano captured on this disc is quite extraordinary, though perhaps its just that my new chipamp is doing better justice to it than the old integrated. Yummy playing from Ms Fliter who I understand to be a protegee of Marta Argerich who for my money is the one of the top three living pianists. Ingrid is certainly a rising star, I look forward to many more discs from her.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005HSP7US/ref=wms_ohs_product_img

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002O2MC3A/ref=wms_ohs_product_img

also nice...

 

[NorthStar]

-- I luv Chopin. :b

 

[opus111]

Some ultra-dynamic Vivaldi is my recommendation for today - Amazon reviewers love this one to bits too.

http://www.amazon.com/Vivaldi-Concertos-Two-Violins-Antonio/dp/B0019RQTUS/

 

[LL21]

Some ultra-dynamic Vivaldi is my recommendation for today - Amazon reviewers love this one to bits too.

http://www.amazon.com/Vivaldi-Concertos-Two-Violins-Antonio/dp/B0019RQTUS/

That was also used in an equipment review by Hifi Critic, i believe. Now, i may check it out. thanks!

 

[opus111]

Its also reviewed on 6moons I've just discovered : http://www.6moons.com/musicreviews/2009_march/vivaldi.html

A complete change of tempo - listening to Lisa Ekdahl now : http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Earth-Beyond-Lisa-Ekdahl/dp/B00006SI2Y/

Her voice isn't recorded as cleanly as Diana Krall's, but she has a highly endearing child-like, playful quality to her singing. If her opening giggle doesn't give you immediate goosebumps, upgrade your DAC

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

My grandbaby's giggles give me goosebumps over an iPhone.

Tim

 

[opus111]

Awww, so sweet Tim

 

[Orb]

It's just a sin(x)/x (sinc) function. It should be down 3.54 dB at Nyquist (fs/2) theoretically for 50% duty cycle IIRC.

If you use a conventional ("NOS") DAC but run it at a higher rate (oversampling, though not a delta-sigma design) you can reduce this effect. ADI used to have a DAC or three that would do this; not sure now that the audio world has gone so heavily for delta-sigma designs.

Yeah,
I think the issue though comes to threshold limits as some from a single chip model can do 192 while others could not and also possible implications when considering 16 or 24bit.
The theory is great for native high res/sample recordings used through a NOS DAC supporting higher rates, had me curious and interested to see the results from a manufacturer, such as AMR (Abbingdon Music Research).
Seems it hits limitations whether related to chipsets or design, both HiFiNews (PM) and Stereophile (JA) noted this bah.
Interesting though I agree.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Bruce B]

"Analog, it’s continuous. If you look at a sine wave, it’s a continuous wave. Whereas digital is an approximation, or a subset, of the analog waveform, it’s sampled, it’s steps, so you don’t get the full information. The resolution is not there. So with vinyl, even to neophytes, it’s immediately apparent the sound quality is so much better with vinyl" Shawn Britton – Senior Mastering Engineer at Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs

 

[asiufy]

That's a good quote, Bruce. Do you disagree with him? Or anybody here?

 

[Bruce B]

That's a good quote, Bruce. Do you disagree with him? Or anybody here?

I totally disagree. He has no concept of how digital works..!

 

[Gregadd]

Trying to figure out why analogue sounds better than digital is akin to trying to figure out whether SNL character Pat is a man or a woman. What are you going to do with the answer?:b

 

[asiufy]

I totally disagree. He has no concept of how digital works..!

Neither do I, that's why I thought it made sense
Care to explain why? I mean, isn't an ADC converting an analog pulse into digital bits (16, 24, or even 1 bit at a time), at a given frequency (44Khz, etc) ? And isn't it feasible that a given quantity of bits and frequency aren't enough to capture the ENTIRE analog signal?
I mean, c'mon, it's called SAMPLING frequency, so the ADC is taking SAMPLES out of an analog signal, and converting it to digital. Sure, at a high enough sampling frequency, the digital reproduction could be indistinguishable from the analog original, but that only proves that, below a certain threshold, information is lost when converting analog to digital.
Sorry if this is too basic for you guys, but this is something that always intrigued me...


alexandre

 

[Orb]

Worth noting that technically it is sampled-reconstructed in "steps", such statements are seen as an error in modern times by younger engineers because many modern dac chips have all the functionality embedded/integrated so the output does resemble the reconstructed sinewave, in the past these were separate functions (going by my own experience and work in the 80s and 90s).
So key point is integrated DAC chip using embedded functions.
Of interest is how modern DAC chip architecture/models provide various bypass to an external function (whether oversampling/various bespoke filters/etc).
Sometimes you do see anecdotal reviews-preferances where specific functions dedicated to different processors/chips has a better sound quality to the same integrated DAC using all in its core.
Still not sure if you can put all of this to a reference level onto a single chip and a core architecture, although ESS Tech seems to be incredibly close and one reason the latest DACs are incredibly good and close the gap on the very high end moving most differentiation to the analogue or power related stages or custom filters.

Just my take anyway.
Cheers
Orb