Gryphon Mephisto (and Alexandrias)

[audioblazer]

Wayne, what is your take on Boulder 3050 which claimed to output 1500 watt at 8 ohm pure class A? Possible or impossible ?

 

[Imperial]

I really don't think Boulder ever said that their amp is endowed with 1500w class A.
I've seen some news reports that state that. But if you read the manual for the 3050's you will find that it draws 300w from the wall per chassis, powered up, but not making music.
A constant minimum draw of 300w...

Excerpt from manual: Link... http://www.boulderamp.com/3050-p1.html

Power Requirements:
220-240 VAC 50-60 Hz, 300W nominal, 6000 W at maximum output
All specifications taken at 240 VAC mains Power.


--
So, as usual per Boulder, the stated output is a "constant"... Like this:
Telling what you will never have less than... that is 1500w... available.


Watts ? THD 20-2kHz THD 20kHz
1500 8 0.0005% 0.0035%
1500 4 0.0008% 0.0045%
1500 2 0.0014% 0.0110%
Peak Power, Each Channel
Watts ?
2100 8
3000 4
6000 2

But make no mistake, the powersupply in a monoblock is quite simply fantastically large, so large, that even connected to a huge circuit breaker they found it necessary to add a slow start by sequenced turn on of each of the 4 transformers.. in order
to avoid tripping the breakers.

Excerpt:
"To turn the amplifier on, press the POWER button on the front panel.
The amplifier will perform a warm up cycle and the power-button indicator
will blink white and red. This power up sequence is mandatory and cannot
be avoided.

Because of the large inrush currents associated with the powerful
quadruple Toroidal transformers, eight power relays are used to turn on
the amplifier. These are under control of the supervising microprocessor.
During the power up sequence, you will hear four sets of two relay clicks,
separated by intervals of two seconds."
...

An earlier post states that The Mephisto (From Gryphon) consumes some 700watt powered on = 200w class A constant.
So a fair guess would be that the Boulder 3050 is biased into 75-80w class A... (extrapolating from a 300w idle draw)
It might be slightly less or higher, depending on how loud you play (i'm asuming adaptive biasing in the Boulder)
But as I said, that would only be MY guess. I really don't know.


mvh

 

[audioblazer]

Imperial , you may be right when u states that Boulder never claimed that their amp is endowed with 1500 watt class A into any load . Page 26 of their manual simply states 1500 into 8/6/2 ohm without stating whether its pure class A. However most if not all the online sites eg avguide, enjoy the music, stereopile , hometheatre review all claimed 1500 class A into all load or 8/4/2ohm.
So which is correct ?

 

[Imperial]

Imperial , you may be right when u states that Boulder never claimed that their amp is endowed with 1500 watt class A into any load . Page 26 of their manual simply states 1500 into 8/6/2 ohm without stating whether its pure class A. However most if not all the online sites eg avguide, enjoy the music, stereopile , hometheatre review all claimed 1500 class A into all load or 8/4/2ohm.
So which is correct ?

Bolder in their news bulletin said:
The 3050 is the ultimate audio amplifier with an abundant reserve of power. It can produce 1,500 watts of continuous power into any load. Peak output power is a staggering 6,000 watts. 5 encapsulated toroidal transformers, 48 filter capacitors and 120 bipolar output devices make certain that voltage headroom is more than adequate, current delivery is instantaneous, damping is optimized and control of every driver in the loudspeaker is idealized."

Now, again, they never said into Class A...

So my best guess is that someone did, and everyone quoted that person, not checking...

mvh

 

[FrantzM]

I really don't think Boulder ever said that their amp is endowed with 1500w class A.
I've seen some news reports that state that. But if you read the manual for the 3050's you will find that it draws 300w from the wall per chassis, powered up, but not making music.
A constant minimum draw of 300w...

Excerpt from manual: Link... http://www.boulderamp.com/3050-p1.html

Power Requirements:
220-240 VAC 50-60 Hz, 300W nominal, 6000 W at maximum output
All specifications taken at 240 VAC mains Power.


--
So, as usual per Boulder, the stated output is a "constant"... Like this:
Telling what you will never have less than... that is 1500w... available.


Watts ? THD 20-2kHz THD 20kHz
1500 8 0.0005% 0.0035%
1500 4 0.0008% 0.0045%
1500 2 0.0014% 0.0110%
Peak Power, Each Channel
Watts ?
2100 8
3000 4
6000 2

But make no mistake, the powersupply in a monoblock is quite simply fantastically large, so large, that even connected to a huge circuit breaker they found it necessary to add a slow start by sequenced turn on of each of the 4 transformers.. in order
to avoid tripping the breakers.

Excerpt:
"To turn the amplifier on, press the POWER button on the front panel.
The amplifier will perform a warm up cycle and the power-button indicator
will blink white and red. This power up sequence is mandatory and cannot
be avoided.

Because of the large inrush currents associated with the powerful
quadruple Toroidal transformers, eight power relays are used to turn on
the amplifier. These are under control of the supervising microprocessor.
During the power up sequence, you will hear four sets of two relay clicks,
separated by intervals of two seconds."
...

An earlier post states that The Mephisto (From Gryphon) consumes some 700watt powered on = 200w class A constant.
So a fair guess would be that the Boulder 3050 is biased into 75-80w class A... (extrapolating from a 300w idle draw)
It might be slightly less or higher, depending on how loud you play (i'm asuming adaptive biasing in the Boulder)
But as I said, that would only be MY guess. I really don't know.


mvh

Very interesting discussion. I never truly questioned the 1500 W of the Boulder , indeed if it is at Class A then the idle consumption on the amp would be close to 6000 watts At all time. Is it one of these "sliding bias" scheme? In which the bias shifts with the load demands to keep the operation in an operating class?.. Another thing which I find interesting is the maximum power draw of the amp, it seems to be 6000 W. They do however state the available power at 2 ohms to be 6000 Watts. At 2 Ohms regardless of the class of operation, the amps will have to consume more than 6000 watts to deliver.. well.. 6000 watts continuously.. it does seem then that this particular amp can deliver a peak of 6000 watts at 2 ohms ... How much can it deliver at 2 ohms continuously? Not sure by these specs alone .. This is somewhat an academic discussion but similar discussions serve to keep the manufacturers in line. Advertising did sound as if these amps were indeed Class A all the way through. This is not only about Gryphon and Boulder , other manufacturer claim Class A operation throughout or it is left to be implied in their marketing brochure when the truth could be very different
Have not heard any of these amps I can't say anything about their sonic quality which by most account is superlative ... but .. it serves to bring things in perspective ..

I thank you Imperial and also A. Wayne who first brought the Class A marketing game to our attention in another thread .

 

[LL21]

Very interesting discussion...I thank you Imperial and also A. Wayne who first brought the Class A marketing game to our attention in another thread .

I agree with Frantz that this has been good to learn...I have this feeling it is darn nigh practically impossible in a home environment to have an amp that could generate 1500watts+ pure Class A...which probably means it might be burning as much as 5,000-7,500 watts at idle in heat or something. Personally, i am not sure i would necessarily consider this a marketing 'game' [all businesses market to a degree]...if they've stated pure Class A thru 175 watts, that's that. I suspect it might be people (like me) misunderstanding that the math does not support thousands of watts of pure Class A regardless of ohm load, etc in a box the size of a domestic amp.

 

[FrantzM]

I agree with Frantz that this has been good to learn...I have this feeling it is darn nigh practically impossible in a home environment to have an amp that could generate 1500watts+ pure Class A...which probably means it might be burning as much as 5,000-7,500 watts at idle in heat or something. Personally, i am not sure i would necessarily consider this a marketing 'game' [all businesses market to a degree]...if they've stated pure Class A thru 175 watts, that's that. I suspect it might be people (like me) misunderstanding that the math does not support thousands of watts of pure Class A regardless of ohm load, etc in a box the size of a domestic amp.

LLoyd

I admire your enthusiasm and humility but let's not be naive here. They could state Class A up to , they chose not to. The idea is to have room for denial. The language is obtuse enough to led people to believe it is Class A throughout.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I also reread the boulder 3050 statements on their company website , nowhere could i find " yet" that they stated it was either running in class A or partially A or AB for that matter .
I dont know about the Gryphon , as far as magazine statements i dont see how boulder could be responsible for it, you should read the fantasy stories some audioreviewers in holland put on the web

 

[LL21]

I agree with Frantz that this has been good to learn...I have this feeling it is darn nigh practically impossible in a home environment to have an amp that could generate 1500watts+ pure Class A...which probably means it might be burning as much as 5,000-7,500 watts at idle in heat or something. Personally, i am not sure i would necessarily consider this a marketing 'game' [all businesses market to a degree]...if they've stated pure Class A thru 175 watts, that's that. I suspect it might be people (like me) misunderstanding that the math does not support thousands of watts of pure Class A regardless of ohm load, etc in a box the size of a domestic amp.

LLoyd

I admire your enthusiasm and humility but let's not be naive here. They could state Class A up to , they chose not to. The idea is to have room for denial. The language is obtuse enough to led people to believe it is Class A throughout.

I also reread the boulder 3050 statements on their company website , nowhere could i find " yet" that they stated it was either running in class A or partially A or AB for that matter .
I dont know about the Gryphon , as far as magazine statements i dont see how boulder could be responsible for it, you should read the fantasy stories some audioreviewers in holland put on the web

The Gryphon Specification Chart for all their equipment states various power levels at various impedance levels: 8ohm (175watts, pure Class A), 4ohm (350 watts), 2 ohm (700 watts), 1 ohm (1400 watts), 0.5 ohm peak (5400 watts)...it says Pure Class A ONLY in the 8ohm box.

 

[A.wayne]

Imperial got it close enuff, i would estimate the boulder at 75 watts class-a bias @8 ohm or approx 18 watts class-a@ 2 ohm ..

Reading their spec sheet , it appears Boulder is really boasting about their distortion numbers into 8,4,2, hence the 1500 watt designation ..

As impedance lowers power and distortion will increase in reference to 8 ohm operation , for this reason Gryphon did not give distortion numbers instead only power numbers and why Boulder limit their power rating to 1500watts and show distortion numbers ...

Direct specification comparisons are eliminated this way, we have no way to say who has more distortion at 2 ohm or driving a 60 degree phase angle at 4 ohm ..

No big deal as specs and bench testing by mags tells us nothing .....

 

[A.wayne]

Based on its peak power rating the Boulder is current limiting into 2 ohms , not an issue unless you really need 6000 watts , or more than 1500 rms@2 ohm..

Whats important when comparing amplifiers is their distortion and noise spectra when being driven ...

I'm sure no 120v version would be necessary only 240v need apply

 

[LL21]

Imperial got it close enuff, i would estimate the boulder at 75 watts class-a bias @8 ohm or approx 18 watts class-a@ 2 ohm ..

Reading their spec sheet , it appears Boulder is really boasting about their distortion numbers into 8,4,2, hence the 1500 watt designation ..

As impedance lowers power and distortion will increase in reference to 8 ohm operation , for this reason Gryphon did not give distortion numbers instead only power numbers and why Boulder limit their power rating to 1500watts and show distortion numbers ...

Direct specification comparisons are eliminated this way, we have no way to say who has more distortion at 2 ohm or driving a 60 degree phase angle at 4 ohm ..

No big deal as specs and bench testing by mags tells us nothing .....

Thanks, A Wayne. I think i have contributed to beating this one to death... If you get a chance, i just posted a technical question on the cumulative spectral decay plots (distortion! for the original Wilson X1 Series ! (1994) v the new XLF and was just wondering what this tells us as to the evolution of this speaker. thanks for any guidance!

 

[microstrip]

(... ) An earlier post states that The Mephisto (From Gryphon) consumes some 700watt powered on = 200w class A constant.
So a fair guess would be that the Boulder 3050 is biased into 75-80w class A... (extrapolating from a 300w idle draw)
It might be slightly less or higher, depending on how loud you play (i'm asuming adaptive biasing in the Boulder)
But as I said, that would only be MY guess. I really don't know.


mvh

Imperial,

You can not extrapolate class A power for amplifiers having such different powers. The Boulder is rated as having 1500W at 8 ohms , 2100 peak power - probably the DC voltage of the power supply will be more than the double of the value of that of the Mephisto.
The amount of power that can be delivered in class A depends on the bias current of the power stage, but as the idle power is usually dominated by the product voltage x bias current it is not easy to compare the class A power of different amplifiers with very different ratings. My crude estimation for the class A power of the Boulder would be around 20W maximum, considering that the power rails should be around +/- 150V or 2 x +/-75V if is as bridged amplifier.

 

[A.wayne]

Imperial,

You can not extrapolate class A power for amplifiers having such different powers. The Boulder is rated as having 1500W at 8 ohms , 2100 peak power - probably the DC voltage of the power supply will be more than the double of the value of that of the Mephisto.
The amount of power that can be delivered in class A depends on the bias current of the power stage, but as the idle power is usually dominated by the product voltage x bias current it is not easy to compare the class A power of different amplifiers with very different ratings. My crude estimation for the class A power of the Boulder would be around 20W maximum, considering that the power rails should be around +/- 150V or 2 x +/-75V if is as bridged amplifier.

Based on its quiescent draw i would say the least it could be is 2amps or 32 watts @8 ohm....

 

[microstrip]

Based on its quiescent draw i would say the least it could be is 2amps or 32 watts @8 ohm....

I was less optimistic - I considered that about 50W would be needed for transformer and other supplies losses, house keeping, input and driver circuits and power supplies.

 

[Imperial]

Yes, I may have been too quick with my guesswork there, You guys are most likely correct.

So, what is known about a Boulders Class A then?
Well, the Boulder 1060 is known to have a Class A bias of 17w... it consumes in the order of 240w from the wall. So if all things Boulder are equal, the 3050
at 300w should have just a tick more than 21W class A as a bias.
So a minimum of 21w class A bias, it has to have... again, how much, that will maybe be revealed in a review?

However, Boulder amplifiers have a Class A bias that varies with the actual load presented by the loudspeaker.
So when powering a waif of a hornspeaker, it will trottle down - the bias..., and when driving say a beast of a MBL or something, it will trottle up the Class A bias...At least to 21watts, it seems.

Microstrip, you seem to have hit the nail square on the head!

Edit: It might be 42watts Class A too, It just dawned on me... 17w class A per Channel of the 1060.. one channel in a 3050 monoblock... *blush...* Aw shucks, what ever! It is not gonna be 1500w!!!

I'm gonna put a dollar on 42 watts... It'll be fun to read in the future what they actually run..

Imperial.

 

[Thf99]

I am curious...did you get any feedback from your dealer as to Mephisto v Colosseum? I suspect i know where it surpasses the Mephisto...but was very curious to know. Thanks!

Just got some feedback from the dealer. Echoing the words of a reviewer...one is a Golf GTI and the other is a Porsche 911 Turbo and I'm sure you know which is which.

 

[wizard]

View attachment 7761

View attachment 7762

At The Music Room in UK.

 

[wizard]

View attachment 7921

Mephisto inside - with 8 big blue 100V 56000 uF capacitors from Nippon Chemi-Con.
That gives operation storage of 2240 Joule.

 

[Ultimate Audio]

Hi,

Here are some videos of the Gryphon Mephisto Stereo driving TAD R-1.

http://www.hificlube.net/Sections/Details.aspx?articleID=23653&sectionID=2

For us at Ultimate Audio the Mephisto is the best Stereo Amp we have heard so far! And we have heard some!
Enjoy! And If someone will go to Lisbon please give us a call that we are more than happy to pick you up to our store!

All the best
Miguel