The biggest difference I hear between digital and analog

[NorthStar]

-- Ralph, what percentage of your music listening is consecrated to analog, and digital?

Happy New Year! :b

Bob

 

[MarinJim]

Atma-Sphere amps are awesome!

 

[Atmasphere]

-- Ralph, what percentage of your music listening is consecrated to analog, and digital?

Happy New Year! :b

Bob

At home its all analog these days. At work its about 50/50.

 

[NorthStar]

-- "... these days." ...That's the magic two words. :b ...I can totally relate to that. Thx!

 

[MarinJim]

At home its all analog these days. At work its about 50/50.

With the right speakers, cables, tube pre and CDP, I find analog redundant. And that surface noise drives me nuts, IMHO.

 

[NorthStar]

-- Just three years ago I was 80% analog. Today I'm about 66% digital.
In the sixties, seventies, and eighties, I was 100% analog. ...In the nineties (late eighties), 75% analog. ...From 2000 to 2010, about 77% digital.

Tomorrow, who knows. :b

_____________________

Next time I go analog in a big way I'll install three more turntables from my storage (they all have their special dedicated functions, and certain albums that they can play best).

Right now there are seven CD/SACD players in operation in my home. ...Only one turntable, and three analog r.a.d.i.o. tuners. There must be another dozen or so CD players in my storage (some good ones too, but nothing esoteric).

No analog tapes of any kind right now (in storage yes).

BTW, I love analog r.a.d.i.o. tuners. :b

 

[mep]

With the right speakers, cables, tube pre and CDP, I find analog redundant. And that surface noise drives me nuts, IMHO.

So it takes the "right speakers, cables, tube pre and CDP" to make analog redundant? What happens if you have the wrong speakers, cables, tube pre, and CDP?

 

[NorthStar]

So it takes the "right speakers, cables, tube pre and CDP" to make analog redundant?
What happens if you have the wrong speakers, cables, tube pre, and CDP?

---- That cannot be, not in the year 2013. :b

 

[Atmasphere]

Happy New Year y'all!

With the right speakers, cables, tube pre and CDP, I find analog redundant. And that surface noise drives me nuts, IMHO.

This might come as a suprise, but the choice of phono preamp can have a huge effect on surface noise! I am not used to hearing much in the way of surface noise anymore, once I sorted out what the big varibles were in the phono section. The difference can be pretty dramatic.

 

[mep]

Happy New Year y'all!



This might come as a suprise, but the choice of phono preamp can have a huge effect on surface noise! I am not used to hearing much in the way of surface noise anymore, once I sorted out what the big varibles were in the phono section. The difference can be pretty dramatic.

To digital people who have an intense dislike for analog, even not "hearing much" would be way too much for them to take. We have one guy on this forum that says he can't and won't tolerate a single pop or click.

 

[microstrip]

With the right speakers, cables, tube pre and CDP, I find analog redundant. And that surface noise drives me nuts, IMHO.

I wish I could say the same. But when I think of the great listening sessions I have with my LPs of the hatART, SoulNote, BlackSaint and many others and compare them with the much inferior CDs we get of this recordings I am happy that my analog system has very little surface noise.

Much of my classic listening is carried in digital, but for other types of music, if a good condition LP is available I prefer the LP. I would like to know of someone saying that he has an excellent digital version of "Lamb Lies down on Broadway" or of "The Crime of the Century".

 

[Atmasphere]

To digital people who have an intense dislike for analog, even not "hearing much" would be way too much for them to take. We have one guy on this forum that says he can't and won't tolerate a single pop or click.

There is definately a preference here! In my case I'll take the pop or click if it means that otherwise the playback is musically endowed and lacking coloration. I've yet to hear that in a digital system at any price; while some of them a fairly musical, none are uncolored - they all sound bright to me. I've mentioned before that the best (IMO...) out there right now is the Stahltek which is a $72,000 system. I say its the best as it is the most musical by far and the least colored by far, but compared to the LP playback of the same track the improvement of the LP is instantly apparent. In the words of the designer, "Digital has so far to go...". He's right! But I think his ready admission of that, his ability to simply deal with 'What Is', is why his gear works so well.

 

[MylesBAstor]

There is definately a preference here! In my case I'll take the pop or click if it means that otherwise the playback is musically endowed and lacking coloration. I've yet to hear that in a digital system at any price; while some of them a fairly musical, none are uncolored - they all sound bright to me. I've mentioned before that the best (IMO...) out there right now is the Stahltek which is a $72,000 system. I say its the best as it is the most musical by far and the least colored by far, but compared to the LP playback of the same track the improvement of the LP is instantly apparent. In the words of the designer, "Digital has so far to go...". He's right! But I think his ready admission of that, his ability to simply deal with 'What Is', is why his gear works so well.

As HP said, "the absence of noise isn't the presence of music."

 

[opus111]

I've mentioned before that the best (IMO...) out there right now is the Stahltek which is a $72,000 system. I say its the best as it is the most musical by far and the least colored by far, but compared to the LP playback of the same track the improvement of the LP is instantly apparent. In the words of the designer, "Digital has so far to go...". He's right! But I think his ready admission of that, his ability to simply deal with 'What Is', is why his gear works so well.

He uses S-D DAC chips, its no wonder his digital is so far behind analog.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

There is definately a preference here! In my case I'll take the pop or click if it means that otherwise the playback is musically endowed and lacking coloration. I've yet to hear that in a digital system at any price; while some of them a fairly musical, none are uncolored - they all sound bright to me. I've mentioned before that the best (IMO...) out there right now is the Stahltek which is a $72,000 system. I say its the best as it is the most musical by far and the least colored by far, but compared to the LP playback of the same track the improvement of the LP is instantly apparent. In the words of the designer, "Digital has so far to go...". He's right! But I think his ready admission of that, his ability to simply deal with 'What Is', is why his gear works so well.

This is all very confusing. Just a post north of this one you told us "the choice of phono preamp can have a huge effect on surface noise." I think I do understand this. Let's bypass the hyperbole of "huge." All surface noise, of any size, is physical. It is the result of flaws in or on the surface of the disc (thus the name). The phono preamp receives that signal with the noise intact. If it has any effect on that surface noise, it can only be by making it louder by raising the volume of the frequencies of the noise, or making it softer by lower the volume of the frequencies of the noise. Phono preamps equalize and raise signal level that is given them at varying levels of purity and accuracy. Period. They have no noise reduction ability outside of those simple parameters. And what do we call it when specific frequencies are raised or lowered? Coloration. And yet you believe, at the same time that a phono preamp is lowering the volume of the frequencies of very audible surface noise, it is "lacking coloration." That's interesting.

I think the only statement above that is neither wishful thinking nor the translation of personal belief into pseudo-fact is the one that goes, "they all sound bright to me." You are, in truth, only talking about what things sound like to you. And if you are listening to phono preamps that attenuate treble frequencies enough to have a huge effect on surface noise, they're having a huge effect on everything else in those frequency ranges as well.

I can certainly understand why digital sounds bright to you.

Tim

 

[NorthStar]

There is definately a preference here! In my case I'll take the pop or click if it means that otherwise the playback is musically endowed and lacking coloration. I've yet to hear that in a digital system at any price; while some of them a fairly musical, none are uncolored - they all sound bright to me. I've mentioned before that the best (IMO...) out there right now is the Stahltek which is a $72,000 system. I say its the best as it is the most musical by far and the least colored by far, but compared to the LP playback of the same track the improvement of the LP is instantly apparent. In the words of the designer, "Digital has so far to go...". He's right! But I think his ready admission of that, his ability to simply deal with 'What Is', is why his gear works so well.

---- Ralph sir, Happy New Year! :b
* ... And to you Tim as well. :b

---------------

SFTOT: Are you a motorcycle's fan? And if yes, which brand and model number are you riding? :b

 

[microstrip]

This is all very confusing. Just a post north of this one you told us "the choice of phono preamp can have a huge effect on surface noise." I think I do understand this. Let's bypass the hyperbole of "huge." All surface noise, of any size, is physical. It is the result of flaws in or on the surface of the disc (thus the name). The phono preamp receives that signal with the noise intact. If it has any effect on that surface noise, it can only be by making it louder by raising the volume of the frequencies of the noise, or making it softer by lower the volume of the frequencies of the noise. Phono preamps equalize and raise signal level that is given them at varying levels of purity and accuracy. Period. They have no noise reduction ability outside of those simple parameters. And what do we call it when specific frequencies are raised or lowered? Coloration. And yet you believe, at the same time that a phono preamp is lowering the volume of the frequencies of very audible surface noise, it is "lacking coloration." That's interesting.
(...)
Tim

Tim,

It was confusing for you when I addressed this same issue some time ago, unsuccessfully trying to explain you that some hardware manages to separate the surface noise to another plane from that of the music, in a way it seems it does not contaminate the recording and our enjoyment of it. Mark Lavigne and Gary also addressed it in their descriptions of great LP playback. And yes, the effect is huge. I hope Ralph manages to explain it better than me.

BTW, you should listen to Ralph OTLs. After ten seconds you will understand that he is not the kind of person who enjoys attenuated treble frequencies . His amplifiers are flat to 100KHz within 1/2 dB and are known for its extension - I quote an old Paul Bolin review in TAS: In the treble, the MA-1 is almost a revelation. The top octave seems to extend to infinity, and does so with a combination of delicacy, airiness, and refinement that set it in a class by itself.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

It was confusing for you when I addressed this same issue some time ago, unsuccessfully trying to explain you that some hardware manages to separate the surface noise to another plane from that of the music, in a way it seems it does not contaminate the recording and our enjoyment of it. Mark Lavigne and Gary also addressed it in their descriptions of great LP playback. And yes, the effect is huge. I hope Ralph manages to explain it better than me.

BTW, you should listen to Ralph OTLs. After ten seconds you will understand that he is not the kind of person who enjoys attenuated treble frequencies . His amplifiers are flat to 100KHz within 1/2 dB and are known for its extension - I quote an old Paul Bolin review in TAS: In the treble, the MA-1 is almost a revelation. The top octave seems to extend to infinity, and does so with a combination of delicacy, airiness, and refinement that set it in a class by itself.

I remain confused, not because your explanation evades me, micro, but because you have offered none. You merely say that it is, and so I assume that you have no explanation. There are no planes in a preamplifier; no dimensions beyond the design and engineering of the device, to which noise can be banished, leaving the music untouched. Not even in a $72,000 phono stage. Regardless of the mythic proportions of such a price, such a preamplifier, like all preamplifiers, is just a collection of electrical parts in a circuit. No planes. No myths. It doesn't seem; it either is or is not. Any ability it might have to reduce, much less remove, hugely, the record's surface noise from the signal will be revealed in the amplitude of the frequency of the noise in question, and it will, of course, have the same impact on the amplitude of everything else in that frequency range. This is not religion. It is mechanical. It is electrical. And if it is real, it is explicable in mechanical and electrical terms.

Tim

 

[opus111]

It was confusing for you when I addressed this same issue some time ago, unsuccessfully trying to explain you that some hardware manages to separate the surface noise to another plane from that of the music, in a way it seems it does not contaminate the recording and our enjoyment of it. Mark Lavigne and Gary also addressed it in their descriptions of great LP playback. And yes, the effect is huge. I hope Ralph manages to explain it better than me.

I think the technical explanation probably has something to do with overload performance, or what some would call 'slew limiting'. Pops and clicks have energy beyond the audio band - this excess HF energy can intermodulate with the in band stuff, giving rise to low-level grunge. A good phono preamp has extremely good linearity, even above 20kHz and the absence of low-level IMD shows itself when listening giving a natural, non-fatiguing sound.

 

[microstrip]

I remain confused, not because your explanation evades me, micro, but because you have offered none. You merely say that it is, and so I assume that you have no explanation. There are no planes in a preamplifier; no dimensions beyond the design and engineering of the device, to which noise can be banished, leaving the music untouched. Not even in a $72,000 phono stage. Regardless of the mythic proportions of such a price, such a preamplifier, like all preamplifiers, is just a collection of electrical parts in a circuit. No planes. No myths. It doesn't seem; it either is or is not. Any ability it might have to reduce, much less remove, hugely, the record's surface noise from the signal will be revealed in the amplitude of the frequency of the noise in question, and it will, of course, have the same impact on the amplitude of everything else in that frequency range. This is not religion. It is mechanical. It is electrical. And if it is real, it is explicable in mechanical and electrical terms.

Tim

Tim,

You assume well. Most of us only report aspects we notice in LP reproduction. I am not an expert in audio design, I can not give you an exact explanation why and how some equipment manages it. I can guess that there is some manipulation of the signals that will enhance the music signal and separate it from noise exploiting the electrical properties of the mechanical noise of vinyl. It will surely be based in some well known psychoacoustic principle.

I have learned long ago that we have no good explanation for most things we observe in audio. I do not know why a Pass XS amplifier sounds different from a Soulution or a Bryston. But just because I can not explain it will not prevent me from enjoying their differences.