The cable conundrum

[audioguy]

No question about that! I totally agree.

I'd use that $20,000 speaker with zip cord and it will sound MUCH better than the $10,000 speaker with $10,000 cables.

Amen to that.

Someone had brought up the fact that cables ONLY make a difference in a more resolving system.

In my experience listening to systems that are more than highly resolving, in purpose built and dedicated rooms, cables make a negative difference if they are not competently designed. That goes against the grain of 99% of the members here but with my ears and on many high end systems, that is my experience.

And if they really did make a difference, it would be the last place I would spend any money.

There was a time when the audio press had me convinced that certain kinds of cables would really bring out the best in my system. And thousands and thousands of dollars later, it didn't prove to be the case. And I had a friend change old and new cables out so I was initially listening blind. Zippo difference which was not the results I wanted nor that I got when listening sighted.

I did have one set of well regarded cables (speaker wire) that destroyed the sound but none made it better.

My opinion on my equipment in my room with my ears.

When I was in the business of installing high end gear in homes, which included awesome hardware, including mega-buck cables, the systems never sounded even reasonably good because little or no attention was given to proper setup and room treatment.

I am NOT saying wire does not make a difference nor that there are not measurable differences. But not to me.

 

[A.wayne]

I guess we would have to agree on what a huge difference is. Typically cable differences are not huge IME. They can make an important difference though.

Instead of measuring the cable itself wouldn't it be more logical to measure the output of the speakers? That would at least tell us if the frequency response is effected between different cables. I may try that one day. Although I'm not sure if my measurement equipment is resolving enough to be useful.

Cables are passive RLC circuits ( tone controls) If you were to measure magnitude and phase of your cables , you will see a picture , inductive phase (positive) means there will be an enhancement of the bass , negative ( capacitive) leaner sound enhancing the top end ..

How much the cables "enhanced " this tonal change would be determined by your subjective listening test in your system, after which you would declare said cables as being the best...

So , yes , cables do make a difference , Change speakers/ amp combo, repeat the process all over again ..

Suggestion:

Start with the wires used by the designer to voice your speakers in, then add your cable bias later for comparision ..


Regards,

 

[rbbert]

Cables are passive RLC circuits ( tone controls) If you were to measure magnitude and phase of your cables , you will see a picture , inductive phase (positive) means there will be an enhancement of the bass , negative ( capacitive) leaner sound enhancing the top end ..

How much the cables "enhanced " this tonal change would be determined by your subjective listening test in your system, after which you would declare said cables as being the best...

So , yes , cables do make a difference , Change speakers/ amp combo, repeat the process all over again ..

Suggestion:

Start with the wires used by the designer to voice your speakers in, then add your cable bias later for comparision ..


Regards,

Although every time cables alone are measured, the frequencies affected are almost always below 5 Hz and above 100 kHz.

 

[Gregadd]

Phono cables can have a measurable effect.

 

[amirm]

I guess we would have to agree on what a huge difference is. Typically cable differences are not huge IME. They can make an important difference though.

Instead of measuring the cable itself wouldn't it be more logical to measure the output of the speakers? That would at least tell us if the frequency response is effected between different cables. I may try that one day. Although I'm not sure if my measurement equipment is resolving enough to be useful.

That's what I was talking about: measuring the output of the system at speaker terminals. If the difference is big then it should show up there and whether the factor is common mode or not at the interconnect would not matter.

 

[microstrip]

+1 I have my limits to what I will spend on a cable and 10k is way over my limit. Each to their own though.

I pick your answer to expose my argument. Cables debates always use this type of argument - a fortune (10k is way over my limit). If you want to debate cables seriously you must do it ignoring the price, the snake oil and all this type of value argumentation. IMHO "My limits" is not a debatable affair!

You have to consider two possibilities for speaker cables:

1. Cables do not matter as soon as they respect some well established values of R, L and C that you assume constant within the audio range and all else does not matter. Then you should not spend money in anything more expensive than thick zip cord and decent connectors. Just hide them with some nice braided sleeve if you want to avoid debates with audiophile friends.

2. Cables affect sound quality due to other characteristics than R, L and C or mysterious variations of them. Then you have to rely on your own or others subjective appreciation - and IMHO anyone spending more than usd 50 in speaker cables is as guilty as anyone spending 10k . Even using OFC copper instead of the cheaper impure copper used in the cables used to charge car batteries is not a an acceptable option if the connectors are properly assembled.

I would love to be part of group 1, but all my experiences prevent it. So I am part of 2, jealously reading those who spend their money in more appetizing and less controversial goods.

Please note I am deliberately ignoring the long term stability of the cables, just focusing on the immediate.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Cables are passive RLC circuits ( tone controls) If you were to measure magnitude and phase of your cables , you will see a picture , inductive phase (positive) means there will be an enhancement of the bass , negative ( capacitive) leaner sound enhancing the top end ..

How much the cables "enhanced " this tonal change would be determined by your subjective listening test in your system, after which you would declare said cables as being the best...

So , yes , cables do make a difference , Change speakers/ amp combo, repeat the process all over again ..

Suggestion:

Start with the wires used by the designer to voice your speakers in, then add your cable bias later for comparision ..


Regards,

I think that some cable manufacturers for instance, Transparent Audio, would agree with the above, saying the sound is in part largely determined when/where the cable goes from capacitive to inductive.

 

[microstrip]

Phono cables can have a measurable effect.

Surely you can measure differences - modern instruments used with proper methods are very powerful. But since you do not manage to correlate the values you get with sound quality what is the purpose? Just to show some nice graphs to the audience? Or as some manufacturers do, use them for marketing?

 

[audioarcher]

I pick your answer to expose my argument. Cables debates always use this type of argument - a fortune (10k is way over my limit). If you want to debate cables seriously you must do it ignoring the price, the snake oil and all this type of value argumentation. IMHO "My limits" is not a debatable affair!

You have to consider two possibilities for speaker cables:

1. Cables do not matter as soon as they respect some well established values of R, L and C that you assume constant within the audio range and all else does not matter. Then you should not spend money in anything more expensive than thick zip cord and decent connectors. Just hide them with some nice braided sleeve if you want to avoid debates with audiophile friends.

2. Cables affect sound quality due to other characteristics than R, L and C or mysterious variations of them. Then you have to rely on your own or others subjective appreciation - and IMHO anyone spending more than usd 50 in speaker cables is as guilty as anyone spending 10k . Even using OFC copper instead of the cheaper impure copper used in the cables used to charge car batteries is not a an acceptable option if the connectors are properly assembled.

I would love to be part of group 1, but all my experiences prevent it. So I am part of 2, jealously reading those who spend their money in more appetizing and less controversial goods.

Please note I am deliberately ignoring the long term stability of the cables, just focusing on the immediate.

I was just stating my budget and comfort level in terms of price. This does not mean I can not debate cables. If someone else has the budget and is comfortable spending more than I so be it. This has nothing to do with the fact that I believe cables can make a difference. It just limits me to lower priced ones.

 

[microstrip]

Cables are passive RLC circuits ( tone controls) If you were to measure magnitude and phase of your cables , you will see a picture , inductive phase (positive) means there will be an enhancement of the bass , negative ( capacitive) leaner sound enhancing the top end .. (...)

Please note that this is a exaggerated and misleading situation, that will only feed the arguments of those who firmly believe that cables do not affect significantly sound quality. R, C and L values shown in good practice will almost never have such effect .

 

[microstrip]

I was just stating my budget and comfort level in terms of price. This does not mean I can not debate cables. If someone else has the budget and is comfortable spending more than I so be it. This has nothing to do with the fact that I believe cables can make a difference. It just limits me to lower priced ones.

Surely - you are in group 2, we have a lot to talk about!

 

[A.wayne]

Although every time cables alone are measured, the frequencies affected are almost always below 5 Hz and above 100 kHz.

Phase.....!!!

 

[A.wayne]

That's what I was talking about: measuring the output of the system at speaker terminals. If the difference is big then it should show up there and whether the factor is common mode or not at the interconnect would not matter.

It doesnt have to be big to have an audible difference and most times it is not ....

 

[Gregadd]

Surely you can measure differences - modern instruments used with proper methods are very powerful. But since you do not manage to correlate the values you get with sound quality what is the purpose? Just to show some nice graphs to the audience? Or as some manufacturers do, use them for marketing?

The relationship between sound quality and phono cable capacitance has been documented.

 

[amirm]

It doesnt have to be big to have an audible difference and most times it is not ....

Davey in his starting post said it was a HUGE difference. I am trying to see if we can get consensus that if the difference is that big, it should be measurable at speaker terminals.

 

[audioarcher]

That's what I was talking about: measuring the output of the system at speaker terminals. If the difference is big then it should show up there and whether the factor is common mode or not at the interconnect would not matter.

Why stop at the speaker terminals? I was suggesting measuring the sound coming from the speakers after each change of cable is made. This is where the rubber meets the road.

 

[microstrip]

Davey in his starting post said it was a HUGE difference. I am trying to see if we can get consensus that if the difference is that big, it should be measurable at speaker terminals.

Amir,
Unless you precisely say what you want to measure, with what accuracy and what is the method and conditions the question is so vague that it is a philosophical question, not a sound reproduction debate.

 

[amirm]

Amir,
Unless you precisely say what you want to measure, with what accuracy and what is the method and conditions the question is so vague that it is a philosophical question, not a sound reproduction debate.

Before we get to decide what to measure, we need to decide if the observation is true by nature of at least good percentage of people saying that is the case. Then we can interview them and find out what they are hearing. I am trying to go one step at a time here.

 

[TJE]

About hearing differences, huge or otherwise: This goes back to how you know what you know. You hear something--but what is it? How do you know it's caused by ___? People say they "listened to ABC cable" or "listened to XYZ component rack" or "listened to 123 power conditioner", but they were listening to a complete system.

I think the most likely source of anything you hear is the recording itself, and after that the speakers and the room, but even to separate these three doesn't entirely make sense. To hear the character of (for example) a cable or disc player requires "hearing through" the dominant contributors to the sound.

 

[DaveyF]

Amir when I said the difference in my system was huge, that's what I meant. So, let me elaborate a little on that statement. In my system, the change to the Nordost cables was immediately noticeable and beneficial. Gone was the slight haze that had pervaded everything before and which I hadn't noticed in the presentation. Instruments were far better placed on the stage, which itself had expanded laterally in both directions. Resolution of fine detail was superior allowing me to hear small details that were obscured before. The bottom end was more forceful and the whole 'gestalt' ( that's one of HP's terms but a good descriptor, IMO ) was far superior. Essentially the sound of instruments in my room is now much more palpable.
My old cables were not bad in any way, particularly for the time that i had originally bought them. BUT, the technology has moved on and clearly the Nordosts work marvels in my system. Now, to the non-believers, all I can say is see my OP.
Therefore, my descriptor of HUGE is IMHO appropriate in the context of the improvement to my system. To those who say cables make no difference, all I can say is perhaps you haven't heard a system where they really do.