Zingali Horn speakers - tweaking the crossovers & DIY

I am upgrading my Zingali crossover with better caps. They are Client Name Evo 1.2, a 2 way horn and bass driver speaker. I like them a lot. But in my setting (smallish room), it is getting a bit too
loaded in the bass. Also maybe over time, the treble has dropped in output. It may be the caps are old. The speakers are 15 years old, and the caps could be 20 years if left on the shelf before they were used.




I don't have a circuit diagram, and Zingali never answer my emails with questions so...

My ideal is get more transparency and speed, and attenuate the bass a bit. Maybe bring the mids up a bit. That is my plan. I will keep all the old parts just incaseI have to revert back.

I will work on the left speaker, and demo against the untouched right speaker, so I have a mean datum point.

I have bought some Mundorf Evo Silver Gold Oil 800v caps in 22uf and 1.5uf to match the values (1.65uF on rhe PCB, but can't match that value). And the smaller cap at 1.25uF I have bought a Clarity CMR as they have 1.2uF.

I think the black resistor stack bottom right is the attenuation on the horn? The high end comes out of the left 2 connections, the low end right side connections. The input is underneath the PCB.
I am biwiring my cables from a single amp to the 2 x pairs speaker input taps. Sounds better that way.

Here's my speakers. They are 12inch omniray horn, 12inch bass. 95dB efficient, crossover is 600hz! So the single horn does a wide range. They are rated to 500W amps, and do play super loud without stress.





I am unsure why there is 3 caps? Is it 22uF for the bass driver, and the smaller ones for the horn I wonder. No name caps not sure what make they are. Could be Sonicore (USA). But probably ok, nothing special.

I want a bit more sparkle on top if possible. I met the designer Guisseppi Zingali in Italy in 2018. His background is cinema speaker designs, and he used JBL units originally. Later models used B&C cones (Italy). I am not sure where the horns are made. He told me his designs are made to work well on both high end and low end systems, and tunes them to allow that. Maybe avoid too many high frequency peaks? None of his designs use a tweeter except the biggest model. So he must think the horn can cover the required range without.
I am guessing the horn is about 10dB more efficient than the 12 inch bass driver. So about 104dB. The speakers can play on low powered amps including 300B but likes more current such as the Aries Cerat Genus. It also plays well with SS amp.

The sound is very smooth, not shouty or forward like some horns, quite polite even. If I get a bit more sparkle with my tweaks, I will be happy.

Will report back.....

Best wishes
Julian zingers.jpg
 
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Comments

Sablon Audio

Industry Expert, VIP Donor
May 22, 2015
866
452
203
#3
Here's a trick for the caps, albeit too late for you Julian. Most manufacturers build with upto +/-15% tolerance, so if you ask the supplier to measure them then you can likely find a match with the original nominal value.

When I wanted more hf sparkle on my Benesch ACT, I used Rike S bypassed with silver Duelund 0.01s. Access into this speaker is rather challenging so I had to find a cap small enough to fit through the tweeter mounting hole. Anyhow, the outcome was exactly what I hoped for, much more open and lively whilst still remaining tonally natural.

The Humble Homemade hifi cap test is an invaluable resource in selecting the characteristics desired and I asked Tony to supply my caps.

www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
 
Likes: RussR
#4
Hello Mark
Thanks for your post. I will test the Uf, but I think they are old and out of spec. Also the ESR will probably have gone up, and even 1 Ohm could be a 1 dB drop in level maybe. As we know the Uf is ket to the crossover points and slope ect, but the brand of cap and materials in it can have a BIG effect on the sound signature. Manufacturers have to factor in costs of course.

I know some guys who have changed caps on even 40K and up speakers. It is possibly a bit like tuning with cables and tube rolling, but in CX case a less used tweak?

Yes I am getting Duelund silver bypass for all 3 positions. I used those on DAC DIY build to good effect. I livened things up and didn't change the overall signature.

I am thinking on my speakers, Zingali just alter the Ufs for each 2 way model to suit the levels, but DON'T tune that much as they are using the exact same yellow caps on other models, from the pics I can find on the web. So my foray into different cap brands and bypass will hopefully give me some room for adjustments. Once I get it nicely tuned, I will then look at the gain on the horn, adjust it up a bit by changing the resistors on the PCB.
 

Sablon Audio

Industry Expert, VIP Donor
May 22, 2015
866
452
203
#5
Blue58 just did his AG Duo Omegas with Miflex copper caps (and better inductors / posts / wiring arrangements) and is very pleased with the outcome. Thankfully my Benesch don’t have any XO on their midrange drivers, being mechanically rolled off.
 
#7
Thanks Audio Elite, and your first post?
Yes I suspected B&C on the horn. I didn't know about the Ciare bass driver, thanks a lot!

Sorry, I have no schematic, and I don't expect Zingali will give me one. They are not good at communications.

I will take a reverse photo of the PCB later this week, when I get my parts.

I would LOVE to rebuild the whole thing as hardwired, with better parts, new inductors etc. But not knowing the specs...
Zingali is an odd company. They seem to be a bit asleep lately. They also seem to have moved back to the pro range and cinema gear,
away from the domestic models. The factory is huge, so they must have been a big concern at some point.

Would like to work with them on marketing, but they didn't bite..

Do you know anyone at the company? Maybe an engineer I can talk to for a schematic?

They seem to use the same PCB and parts / layout for various models, mid sized to bigger. Then adjust the cap values and resistors (I assume for gain adjustment to the horn). I am guessing...
 
#8
94700887_322130978752508_7579597446045499392_n.jpg

Here is a photo I found on the web of a Home Monitor 2.1. It looks almost identical to my circuit board, just different cap values and gain adjutment.
 
#10
I dunno, I have seen many crossover recaps with film caps and the recap brought it back to life performance wise.
I will know soon, after I get my parts fitted...
 

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2014
1,364
214
135
Canberra Australia
#11
I am upgrading my Zingali crossover with better caps. They are Client Name Evo 1.2, a 2 way horn and bass driver speaker. I like them a lot. But in my setting (smallish room), it is getting a bit too
loaded in the bass. Also maybe over time, the treble has dropped in output. It may be the caps are old. The speakers are 15 years old, and the caps could be 20 years if left on the shelf before they were used.




I don't have a circuit diagram, and Zingali never answer my emails with questions so...

My ideal is get more transparency and speed, and attenuate the bass a bit. Maybe bring the mids up a bit. That is my plan. I will keep all the old parts just incaseI have to revert back.

I will work on the left speaker, and demo against the untouched right speaker, so I have a mean datum point.

I have bought some Mundorf Evo Silver Gold Oil 800v caps in 22uf and 1.5uf to match the values (1.65uF on rhe PCB, but can't match that value). And the smaller cap at 1.25uF I have bought a Clarity CMR as they have 1.2uF.

I think the black resistor stack bottom right is the attenuation on the horn? The high end comes out of the left 2 connections, the low end right side connections. The input is underneath the PCB.
I am biwiring my cables from a single amp to the 2 x pairs speaker input taps. Sounds better that way.

Here's my speakers. They are 12inch omniray horn, 12inch bass. 95dB efficient, crossover is 600hz! So the single horn does a wide range. They are rated to 500W amps, and do play super loud without stress.





I am unsure why there is 3 caps? Is it 22uF for the bass driver, and the smaller ones for the horn I wonder. No name caps not sure what make they are. Could be Sonicore (USA). But probably ok, nothing special.

I want a bit more sparkle on top if possible. I met the designer Guisseppi Zingali in Italy in 2018. His background is cinema speaker designs, and he used JBL units originally. Later models used B&C cones (Italy). I am not sure where the horns are made. He told me his designs are made to work well on both high end and low end systems, and tunes them to allow that. Maybe avoid too many high frequency peaks? None of his designs use a tweeter except the biggest model. So he must think the horn can cover the required range without.
I am guessing the horn is about 10dB more efficient than the 12 inch bass driver. So about 104dB. The speakers can play on low powered amps including 300B but likes more current such as the Aries Cerat Genus. It also plays well with SS amp.

The sound is very smooth, not shouty or forward like some horns, quite polite even. If I get a bit more sparkle with my tweaks, I will be happy.

Will report back.....

Best wishes
Julian
Hi Julian

good luck with your horn rebuild
can I suggest you bypass your larger value caps with some 0.01 uF caps I like the Pio from Russia

a
 
#12
Hello Awsmone. Thanks. I am doing just that with the Duelund 0.01uF bypass silver caps. I used those on my kit DAC and it upped the seed and details without changing the overall signature. I was also cheap to do for a big effect.

I am thinking about this crossover subject. Is it a bit like ICs or tube rolling, it is a mod that anyone can do if they are adventurous enough to try. Yes, a manufacturer does tune a speaker, and a mighty fine job of it. But as we know, how a given speaker sounds in a factory / demo room, may be radically different to how it sounds in the clients own home. If we can tune a speaker by cap changes (same values but different brands) then there seems no harm. It isn't mains voltage, not dangerous. And as long as care is taken with the mod and no shorts is fairly safe.

Can I suggest we thus have these 'tuning' facilities available to an audiophile, to get a particular
set of components to the best level possible:


1. Interconnects
2. Power Cables
3. Tube rolling
4. HiFi Fuses
5. Vibration Control
6. Acoustic room treatments

7. Power Conditioning
8. Speaker Crossover caps


1-3 are very popular, 4-5 less so, 6 fairly rare (wife factor?)
8. Hardly utilised.

Then we have source specific new ones like Network switches, routers, LPS supply, dedicated mains, upgraded grounding. A minefield maybe.

I prefer to use the ones that are both effective and don't cost an arm and a leg.

There is a tuning angle to the crossover caps subject, but also more serious, some caps age or fail over years. Early production stuff,
electrolytics and even more recent production oil film caps can fail. Reading the many threads over on diyaudio forum about crossovers, many say they went from dull and lifeless before the recap, to alive and energetic after (most case).

Thoughts?
 

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2014
1,364
214
135
Canberra Australia
#13
Hiya
I would order 6,3,8,7 in order of effect
do try the Pio they are cheap and very fast and rich
when I rebuild a crossover I place alternatives with alligator clips so I can swab in and out easily or you can build an entire experimental board if starting from scratch
also suggest having the crossover external rather than internal
a
 
#14
An update on my DIY crossovers. I got the parts this week, so got down to it.
I de-engineered the original PCB and expanded it onto a sheet of MDF. Cut slots for the big caps and holes for the hard wiring.

I hard wired the circuit with 14AWG solid core silver with teflon sleeving. And the connections pushing up through for surface mounting the parts.
The wire is very stiff, so the parts don't move about.

I took of the original inductor used for the bass driver, and re-used that. Everything else was replaced. The big cap on the bass circuit is a 22uf so went from a managable poly cap, ICEL brand I think (8 euros) to a huge 60mm x 55mm Mundorf Silver Gold in Oil EVO Supreme cap, rated to 700v. They don't do a lower rating.

The caps on the horn are 1.65uF and 1.25 uF poly caps ICEF. I used Mundorfs Silver Gold in Oil EVO Supreme, but used 1.0uf with a 0.22uF as parallel on it to get 1.22uF, and a 1.5uF for the 2.65uF position. I also added a Duelund 0.01uf Silver bypass cap on the 1.22uf position, as I did that in my DAC kit some years ago and it opened up the treble a bit.

There is a resistor bank of 2 rows of 2 x 20R 5W resistors on the HF circuit which I changed down to 18Rs, so give me about 8.7R not 10R reduction on the horn. I want to get a bit more gain on the horn overall.

Nylon ties and silver solder. It isn't very pretty, but works well so far. I need to burn in the caps so expecting things to improve further in the next 2-3 weeks.

crossovers2.jpg crossovers1.jpg crossover2.jpg

The green single 7R resistor on the HF circuit (left side) I will try lower values in that later, to tweak the gain on the horn v bass driver. I think I need 2dB extra.
 
#15
Here is the diagramatic kindly created for me by a forum poster.

Zingali-Network+mods_.png
 
Likes: morricab

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
4,206
863
198
Switzerland
#16
Thanks Audio Elite, and your first post?
Yes I suspected B&C on the horn. I didn't know about the Ciare bass driver, thanks a lot!

Sorry, I have no schematic, and I don't expect Zingali will give me one. They are not good at communications.

I will take a reverse photo of the PCB later this week, when I get my parts.

I would LOVE to rebuild the whole thing as hardwired, with better parts, new inductors etc. But not knowing the specs...
Zingali is an odd company. They seem to be a bit asleep lately. They also seem to have moved back to the pro range and cinema gear,
away from the domestic models. The factory is huge, so they must have been a big concern at some point.

Would like to work with them on marketing, but they didn't bite..

Do you know anyone at the company? Maybe an engineer I can talk to for a schematic?

They seem to use the same PCB and parts / layout for various models, mid sized to bigger. Then adjust the cap values and resistors (I assume for gain adjustment to the horn). I am guessing...
Pro market is MUCH bigger than hifi market...that is probably why the shift of focus...
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
4,206
863
198
Switzerland
#17
Here is the diagramatic kindly created for me by a forum poster.

View attachment 64863
Interesting. The woofer is 2nd order and tweeter appears to first order but with two caps and resistors making an unusual divider...some EQ in addition to padding the level?
 
#18
Holy cow, this speaker now really rocks, I can't believe how much extra detail I am getting. The mids have also come up and micro detail in the treble, it is a totally different speaker now. It was IMO a combination of the basic? ICEL poly caps and the gain on the horn which I have tweaked up about 2-3dB. The caps did the job, but I can hear they were a bit crude, as had the right speaker on test as is, next to the modded one for some days on test.

I did a frequency sweep and around the crossover point about 1,000hz seems as smooth as a babies bottom, no dips or peaks.

I had a scare last night though, as the bass driver in the first one I modded went off. I panicked, thought I had blown the voice coil. But a pro series 12inch woofer, seemed unlikely. I took it all apart and it was my dry joint on the speaker tabs. First time I had one of those.

I was considering selling the Zingali's but won't be doing that now.

The soundstage is huge in my room now, I can stand in the middle of it, stuff going on all over the place. My total for the full mod was 900 euros, biggest cost being the Mundorf silver/gold EVO supremes in oil 22uF. It is a huge cap and I needed 2 of course.

I bypassed the smallest cap on the HR leg, and that opens up the details. I did the same in my DAC kits years ago.

So, a convincing tweak that is available to any audiophile. But some speakers pot their crossovers so that would be a rebuild. And of course it voids any warranty. But if tuning / extracting more performance out of your speaker is of interest, I would say go for it. 2 ways are easier to upgrade obviously. But many 3 ways are not so complex. The key thing is not to alter the uF values as that is the crossover position on the FR. If you stick to cap upgrades it will give you the same settings as the original but potentially more performance.

Very old speakers are more problematic, as often have electrolytics, which sound hideous, but swopping those for film caps will mess up the ESR big time, so you would need advice on that.

It is odd, I expected the mids and treble to improve in detail, control speed ect. But the bass has also come up as well in quality. More detail, faster, less bloat. Maybe the huge Mundorf film cap is doing it's thing here? Really nice caps indeed these Mundorfs, and still under the Duelund or V-Cap prices.
 
#19
More changes as the Mundorf's burn in. This crossover update is a Major change for the good. I can't find anything negative about the update.
Everything has improved. This underlines to me how important a crossover is to a speakers final performance. It is hidden so maybe a bit forgotten by owners. And maybe partly why single driver / full range driver speakers have an appeal. Though they can have other problems so...

Some manufacturers do pretty high end crossovers already in their models, Aries Cerat, Magico, Sonus Faber come to mind. It may be well worth checking your own speakers and see if upgrades in sound can be had.

TBH this upgrade in my speakers is BIG, and cost me about 900 euros. I think that is good value.
 
Likes: adamaley

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