Zero Distortion: PTP Lenco and Nottingham Dais, Zyx 4D, SPU a95

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#1
Why did people trade down from the TW Acustic Raven and Verdier to the PTP Lenco? Why did Salvatore use the Nantais Lenco as a reference for years? Why is PTP Art Dudley's favorite TT?

My first trip started with a visit to Geneva, where I heard the Nantais Lenco Mk2.

This was followed by

1. Nottingham Dais – SME 3012 R with Ortofon SPU anniversary 95 and Graham Phantom with Hana SL
2. PTP Lenco with Moerch DP8, one wand having the Zyx 4D and the other with Benz LPS
3. PTP tweaks
4. Stein Carbon Signature mat which I bought after an AB at Munich
5. Will follow up with notes of Ortofon SPU a95 vs a85 in another system
6. Will follow up with SPU a95 compared on FR 64 and EAT tonearm (replica of Ortofon 309) in a third system
7. Will follow up with compare of PTP vs Schopper Thorens 124, in at least one other system

To sum up, I have begun ordering the PTP 12.

Details here http://zero-distortion.org/ptp-lenco-12-and-nottingham-dais/
 

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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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#2
Ked, I'm glad you've got a better perspective on the Zus (Druids in his case)
As you know, I've been the first to admit that the performance delta from my London apartment to my new dedicated loft space has been startling
The elimination of all that glass and concrete, full install of acoustically treated structure, carpet, and also v critically, fully symmetrical placement of spkrs and a ton of space behind them, has revealed hitherto unknown amounts of soundstaging, imaging and transparency, while maintaining everything I love about them re tone density and flow
Anyhow, onto the PTP
Did you feel when it was fully on song it lost anything to good belt drives on transparency, air and high end detail?
I ask because idlers and rim drives like my Salvation are great at bass slam, PRaT and involvement, but due to idler noise/rumble, can be less impressive on microdynamics and low level detail that makes the sound more earthbound than the best belt drives
 
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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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#3
Hey Ked, too bad about the lack of interest in this thread other than from me and you
I can only conclude that people want to spend enormous amounts of cash on their tts
To be told there is an uber performer 5-10x less expensive just doesn't fire them up
It should
Justin's Interstella Duettas at £15k is a serious giant slayer
And I believe this PTP is too
 
May 30, 2010
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#6
Hey Ked, too bad about the lack of interest in this thread other than from me and you
I can only conclude that people want to spend enormous amounts of cash on their tts
To be told there is an uber performer 5-10x less expensive just doesn't fire them up
(...)
No, DIY and debating DIY is not currently my main interest. I considered the Garrard 401 route a few months ago - even bought one in excellent condition, the easy part - and decided not to go that way.

But I will enjoy reading your posts on the subject.
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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#7
Hey Ked, too bad about the lack of interest in this thread other than from me and you
I can only conclude that people want to spend enormous amounts of cash on their tts
To be told there is an uber performer 5-10x less expensive just doesn't fire them up
It should
Justin's Interstella Duettas at £15k is a serious giant slayer
And I believe this PTP is too
Hello gents,

No, I think it’s more that as Gilles alludes to the PTP has been covered extensively on Lenco Heaven and the number of ways to plinth a L75 are as numerous as the opinions generated there. If you trawl through the threads on LH and other forums, there’s just as many who prefer hardwood, slate or various composite plinths to the PTP’s corian one, though the consensus is definitely the PTP5 and bearing upgrade are no-brainers if considering a DIY 75.

For me, the issue is having heard many home-grown and commercially-available idlers whether long term I wouldn’t in fact be happier with a modified 301, or perhaps Schick’s still-in-development 14. The 301 is hard to shake - y’know, maybe at the end of they I’m just a 301 kinda guy - and Joe Roberts and I had a long and involved conversation of why despite many idler alternatives the 301 continues to occupy a space in both of our psyche’s. Having said that, I liked what I heard from the Silbatone room this year in Munich. And despite the fact Schick’s Commonwealth turntable was perhaps the least expensive thing there in real terms relative to its downstream components, it certainly didn’t embarrass itself, and having chatted with Schick I can’t rule out the possibility his forthcoming 14 could be a real contender, given it can accommodate 9” through 12” arms (unlike the PTP), the motor itself is the first of its type to be used for audio purposes being a modern brushless DC high-torque type, the idler and bearing are Schick’s own design, and the plinth is made from a “high density polymer” - i.e. essentially a ground-up new turntable based on prior art.

But then, I look at the work of Christopher Thornton or that of Chris Harban and do little longing sighs whenever I see a 301 mounted in their plinths. Jeff Day’s tweaked out Classic Turntable Company 301 with Artisan Fidelity plinth, Schick arm and headshell, and brass platter gives me goosebumps, based solely on the photos, as shallow an observation as that might be. Oh yeah, and then there’s the Saskia which despite never having heard it, I have placed at the top of a short-list of one.

Yes, a Schopper Thorens 124 will cost more than PTP, as will most 301/401 restores in a custom plinth, but the fact that the L75, 124, Commonwealth and 301 (et al) live on as idler options for the contemporary music lover is surely only a good thing. Choices, choices, choices.

Be well,

853guy
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#9
Hi 853, I loved the Schick commonwealth this year, and I have heard his Schick chick 14 3 years ago though it was a less developed version than what he had one display this year. It costs 15k EUR.

I loved the Schopper, not so the Audiograil Garrard. I have also heard the Artisan Fidelity Garrard, a top spec, with Ikeda 407 and Koetsu Coralstone, through an Ongaku phono, though not compared with anything except the Burmester digital.

I must say I am a Schopper 124 and PTP Lenco fan (the Nantais Lenco did not do anything for me). As with Apogee, DIY restores differ based on who does them.

The PTP had by far the highest bass, dynamics, drive, and immersive soundstage. Once I get it, I will compare it side by side against Schopper (which is next to the Audiograil Garrard), and a Kuzma XL4. I will get to listen to another PTP next to Schopper, Lorricraft, and SP10 mk2, though in a much smaller system. And yet another Schopper, SME 30/12, and Audiograil compare is on the cards later in the year. And once Gian gets his arm for his Schopper, next to the Bergmann.

All that said, the cost and resale of the PTP makes it a no-brainer for me till the final TT is found (which in my case might be the Schopper if it’s better). For someone with much more money, the PTP will make a great second table.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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#11
853, I love the Saskia, but despite messages requesting more info, I've been left none the wiser
Off the shortlist
Schick's 14 has been so long in coming, and still it hasn't arrived
Ditto
Artisan Fidelity, too rich for my tastes
Schopper 124, not the most user friendly website
Peter's PTP Solid 12, just a fully formed product, really excellent reviews and Real World reports, excellent engineering and friendly comms, aesthetically v pleasing, and true vfm
I mean, what more could you want?
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#12
PTP is not an alternative for those who can afford Techdas or Saskia. Not claiming this to be the Apogee or Lampi of turntables :)

But it will beat some very good belts and DDs priced more than it (which, if you take out all the margins, incentive for profit and for maintaining and ongoing concern might actually be priced the same, in which case the debate comes down to more of Idler vs belt vs DD, and restore expertise)

Giles: There is a guy named Nigel on Lenco forum who gives specs for these, which anyone can design. One of the Lenco designers for selling his on Lenco forum
 

gian60

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Apr 17, 2016
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#13
Hi Ked,
one my friend near Milan,that you don't know,has TW Acustic Raven Black Night,30.500 euro,with 4 arms,but he prefer more his Garrard 301.He says Raven has an hifi sound and this while 301 has more dynamic and natural.
He bought plint from Artisan Fidelity( paid 5.000 euro) and he told me increased a lot the quality.He bought an other 301,one Technics sp10 mk II,he is looking to buy one MK III and one Schopper
He has 44 cartridges,and he start to like MM cartridges instead of MC
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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#14
Hi 853, I loved the Schick commonwealth this year, and I have heard his Schick chick 14 3 years ago though it was a less developed version than what he had one display this year. It costs 15k EUR.

I loved the Schopper, not so the Audiograil Garrard. I have also heard the Artisan Fidelity Garrard, a top spec, with Ikeda 407 and Koetsu Coralstone, through an Ongaku phono, though not compared with anything except the Burmester digital.

I must say I am a Schopper 124 and PTP Lenco fan (the Nantais Lenco did not do anything for me). As with Apogee, DIY restores differ based on who does them.

The PTP had by far the highest bass, dynamics, drive, and immersive soundstage. Once I get it, I will compare it side by side against Schopper (which is next to the Audiograil Garrard), and a Kuzma XL4. I will get to listen to another PTP next to Schopper, Lorricraft, and SP10 mk2, though in a much smaller system. And yet another Schopper, SME 30/12, and Audiograil compare is on the cards later in the year. And once Gian gets his arm for his Schopper, next to the Bergmann.

All that said, the cost and resale of the PTP makes it a no-brainer for me till the final TT is found (which in my case might be the Schopper if it’s better). For someone with much more money, the PTP will make a great second table.
Absolutely, and although we’re dealing with some fundamental characteristics that differentiate an L75 from a TD124 from a 301, mostly we’re dealing with variables related to implementation, not to mention arm/cart/setup/loading, etc. But like I say, it’s a great time to be alive if you’re an idler fan, or indeed, of the SP10 or EMTs… choices, choices, choices, or rather, preferences, preferences, preferences.

Keep us posted.

853, I love the Saskia, but despite messages requesting more info, I've been left none the wiser
Off the shortlist
Schick's 14 has been so long in coming, and still it hasn't arrived
Ditto
Artisan Fidelity, too rich for my tastes
Schopper 124, not the most user friendly website
Peter's PTP Solid 12, just a fully formed product, really excellent reviews and Real World reports, excellent engineering and friendly comms, aesthetically v pleasing, and true vfm
I mean, what more could you want?
What more could you want? Well, you might want a sound that isn’t what you get with a L75, even with Peter’s mods, has the ability to have more than one arm length, and isn’t made from Corian, right?*

I think in regard to the Saskia, you send Mosin a PM, buy a return ticket and go hear it. Info by itself is unlikely to sway anyone away or toward it, but experiencing it in the flesh would. In talking to Schick in Munich I got the feeling that he just wants to get it right, and if that means not making it to market before that time, then so be it, and kudos to him for being so resolute in his willingness to do so. Walking around Munich I got to hear some really nice turntables, but for whatever reason it was Schick’s idler that I enjoyed most over the much more expensive belt-drive alternatives I heard there, although possibly the direct drive Primary Control Kinea is worth some more investigation (as is their Field Coil arm).

I can understand people balk at the Artisan Fidelity approach, but the reality remains you get to select a plinth that more reflects your own sensibilities, both aesthetically and sonically, and many people are happy to pay more (over the cost of the PTP) for those options, of whom I am one. Like I say above, implementation/setup can’t be ignored, but based on what I’ve seen OMA, Artisan Fidelity, Saskia, Schick, Schopper and PTP bring to market in the last few years, not to mention what I saw in Munich, I remain optimistic there are avenues worth exploring at all points of the pricing spectrum.

Best,

853guy

*It’s not that I have anything against corian in-and-of-itself, just that there’s options for plinthing a L75 (or indeed a Garrard or Thorens) that are just as valid, albeit, with different sets of pros/cons.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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#15
853, I do get it
Choice makes the world go around
For me, I just love the minimal cool aesthetic of the PTP, feel there is minimal BS factor in the engineering and claims made, the price is a very happy one
I've been running an enthusiast made rim drive/air arm for five years, Trans Fi Audio Salvation and Terminator, and I'm wedded to interesting left field but cost effective solutions such as these
I'm afraid I don't want to diss anyone here, but if half a dozen emails and PMs later, a $50k plus idler specialist can't be bothered to help me, so be it
I don't need or want to spend big on custom Artisan Fidelity finish
And PTP Peter's user friendly and communicative style is hard to beat in this area, certainly better than Scopper (and anyhow I love the Solid 12 design by far)
Peter now has a Primary Control-derived Target 9" and 12" tonearms, and for €5k to incl tt, new bearing and feet, arm plus impvd wiring, it's a no brainer
For me, there really is no going back to belt (recent experience of low torque and fussy AMG V12 was a bit of a miss for me)
For me, I've been looking for a more realised version of my Salvation w'out spending stupid amounts, my liason w him has been excellent, the Art Dudley, PF and 6Moons reviews have been highly revealing, and now Ked is backing these up and going further
I think I'm ready to make that trip to NL soon to hear it
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#16
Hi Gian,

Have you been hiding Milan audiophiles from me?  I am not surprised though, but he might prefer the PTP Lenco more than the Garrard. It will definitely be more dynamics and bassy. It will be interesting when he gets his Schopper and SP10 set up.
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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#17
853, I do get it
Choice makes the world go around
For me, I just love the minimal cool aesthetic of the PTP, feel there is minimal BS factor in the engineering and claims made, the price is a very happy one
I've been running an enthusiast made rim drive/air arm for five years, Trans Fi Audio Salvation and Terminator, and I'm wedded to interesting left field but cost effective solutions such as these
I'm afraid I don't want to diss anyone here, but if half a dozen emails and PMs later, a $50k plus idler specialist can't be bothered to help me, so be it
I don't need or want to spend big on custom Artisan Fidelity finish
And PTP Peter's user friendly and communicative style is hard to beat in this area, certainly better than Scopper (and anyhow I love the Solid 12 design by far)
Peter now has a Primary Control-derived Target 9" and 12" tonearms, and for €5k to incl tt, new bearing and feet, arm plus impvd wiring, it's a no brainer
For me, there really is no going back to belt (recent experience of low torque and fussy AMG V12 was a bit of a miss for me)
For me, I've been looking for a more realised version of my Salvation w'out spending stupid amounts, my liason w him has been excellent, the Art Dudley, PF and 6Moons reviews have been highly revealing, and now Ked is backing these up and going further
I think I'm ready to make that trip to NL soon to hear it
Hey Spirit,

I’m sure Mosin can speak for himself, so I won’t attempt to do it for him.

I once ordered a custom 29”, steel-framed, single-speed, hard-tail mountain bike*. After hearing of a guy in the hills who was making them out of his garage, I sent him a bunch of emails and left a bunch of messages, few of which were returned, and with no website at all, went and saw him instead. Turned out to be one of the nicest guys I’d ever met - extremely knowledgable, an enthusiast of architecture, F1 and wines from Bordeaux/Burgundy, and in person, so very much different than my virtual experience of him. In fact, he’s still a friend to this day though the bike is long gone. The lesson I learned was not everyone is as comfortable communicating via non-personal means as I might be, which in my limited experience has often been the result of an intelligence more exceptional than expected, and a humility that no website, social media profile or forum presence could adequately convey.

As to the Artisan Fidelity thing, the constrained layer plinths contain a beauty that's more than just skin deep, with a level of engineering detail that actually surprised me. What's more, they also employ an inverted bearing and platter, the latter CNC-machined from aluminum, stainless inox steel, and magnesium. Again, I get not everyone wants nor needs that, sonics aside.

Be well,

853guy

*Was I hard-core? Yes I was. Rear suspension and gears? Pfff. For wusses.
 
May 30, 2010
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#18
(...) Choices, choices, choices. (...)
853guy
Yes, these words summarized my conclusions concerning modding vintage turntables. So I stayed with the (vintage?) Forsell with the air bearing flywheel - perhaps some day I will try it with an active platform.
 

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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#19
Congratulations, Bonzo, on your decision to buy the PTP!

Yeah, highly immersive, exciting, room fill, bass, dynamics, drive and explosiveness are all terms that are up my alley as well.

The last bit of resolution and refinement is great too, but first of all, a system needs to reproduce the music in a way that shows how much it is ALIVE. Otherwise, what is a system for? All IMO of course.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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#20
Al, I may well be following Ked
I'm a total convert to the intrinsic benefits of idler/rim drive
What I'm most excited about in his review is that the PTP seems to incorporate all that's best in idlers ie bass drive and extension, presence and texture ie a real beating heart in the music, w what are previously exclusive to belt drive attributes like transparency, reverb, high end shimmer and microdynamics
Now it's these latter properties my rim drive tt is somewhat deficient on, and why I'm so interested in the PTP
 

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