What treatment for which speaker in a very small room.

[P.C.]

I'm thinking of creating a dedicated listening room in my study, as a private space and alternative to our current family music room.
This room is very small at 12' 4" x 9' 3" x 7' 10".
I would be prepared to add room treatments where necessary to maximize the its potential.
my musical tastes covers equally all genres and periods of so called classical music. from Anon to Xenakis, from solos to Symphonies .
So I need a well a balanced speaker that can perform as wide a range of musical scale as possible in such a room!

My intial shortlist ( within my budget) includes speakers of very different design and therefore presumably different room treatment requirments?
Some I have experience of different models ( Harbeth and Magnepans) others just interest me for certain design features and reputation.

1} Harbeth P3ESR ( plus small sub?)
2} the new Magnepan mini's with two of the accompanying bass panels.
3)Shahinian new mini Larc (omni directional )
4)Amphion (Ion or Argon)
5) Kef LS50
I would match whatever with an amp/source to best suit it.

My question to anyone is: would the type of room treatments required, ( weither done by myself or via a pro) change considerably depending on what type of speaker was being used?. ie a Shahinian omni, compared to the dipole Magnepans etc.

In other words should one select the speaker first and then build the room around them.
Or treat the room and then find the speaker that then best works in it.

Thanks, Philip.

 

[GaryProtein]

What kind of flooring does the room have-carpet, wood? Any windows, drapes, type of furniture in the room?

These will influence room treatments.

 

[P.C.]

Its pretty much a blank canvas presently. Just has a few small waist level wooden bookcases and drawers in the room which I plan to remove.
Apart from that Hardwood flooring, which is above a 4' deep crawl space.
One 70" x 30" window runs midway along the longer length ( but approx 2/3rds up from fllor to ceiling) currently covered with blinds ( would change to curtains if needed) .
A 7' wide floor to ceiling built in closet runs along the opporsite wall (which has 2' space behind the doors). The one door is next to this . Pop corn ceiling.
I do plan to put all my 3000+ cd along a wall somwhere which are in open wooden framed racks and I also plan to install some type space saving floor to ceiling open framed shelving to hold books, magazines , object, etc.
This could easily fill say the entire back / front shorter 9' 3" wall/s.(or along the longer wall beneath and around the window)

I will also need some sort of chair ! and can put in carpet/rugs ( I like those Flor tiles) if beneficial
Apart from the audio equipment the only other thing I plan to have ( apart from any room treatments of course) would be a small foldable work table for my design/art work.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Simplistically speaking you can break the room down into two regions - above 300Hz and below 300Hz - see this article on the schroeder / transition frequency for more.

Below 300Hz unless you are using dipoles or very floor to ceiling large line sources then all the speakers are going to interact with the room similarly because they are all going to be omindirectional at those frequencies.

Above 300Hz the type of speaker you use will make a big difference to how you treat the room. Every speaker has a different radiation pattern in the upper mid/high frequencies. Some are omnidirectional, others are dipoles, others are controlled directivity, others are poorly design box speaker with variable off axis spectral radiation patterns.

In a small room with a close listening distance I'd be tempted to pick something with either a coaxial driver or a small 2 way and either forget the low bass or augment with a couple of subwoofers. A small room will need to be extensively treated at reflection points because the reflected sounds will be very close in level and time arrival to the direct sound.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Below 300Hz unless you are using dipoles or very floor to ceiling large line sources then all the speakers are going to interact with the room similarly because they are all going to be omindirectional at those frequencies. (...)

It is one the reasons I would serious consider the Quad ESL 2912 (or ESL2805) for this situation.

Considering the target music genre is classical and the size of room it is an ideal speaker. The more recent models will play the Xenakis Pleiades at loud levels in a small room, and once you experience the the fine details and nuance of this percussion work in the Quad's you will never be pleased with a box speaker again! Listening to Quad's in small rooms, typically at 6-7 feet distance is really an experience.

Technically the Quads have two very good points for this application - they are true point sources and they are dipoles.

 

[elescher]

You may also consider putting your components in your adjacent closet too.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Wouldn't selecting the components of your choice make more sense before even discussing room acoustics? Not sure if I like the idea of having to select gear based on the type of room acoustics present.

 

[P.C.]

Wouldn't selecting the components of your choice make more sense before even discussing room acoustics? Not sure if I like the idea of having to select gear based on the type of room acoustics present.

I could buy something from of my shortlist (say based on what sounded best at a dealer ) only to discover it didn't match very well with my room. Even possibly after spending lots of money treating it to try and alleviate what ever issues the specific speaker/room interface reavealed.
Only to discover later or be told hey this room with just a little treatment say here and here whould be a great space /match for...this type/design of speaker. Again remembering my specific musical demands. Chicken or egg?
microstrip thanks for the quad suggestion am I wrong but I thought I'd read Quads need large rooms to work well. which was why I thought the Mag Mini's might be an idea.
Nyal, thinks for the info and link.

 

[Ethan Winer]

I could buy something from of my shortlist (say based on what sounded best at a dealer ) only to discover it didn't match very well with my room ... Only to discover later or be told hey this room with just a little treatment say here and here would be a great space /match for...this type/design of speaker.

You might be over-thinking this. As far as I'm concerned, the goal of high fidelity is exactly that: Accuracy. If you get speakers that are accurate, they should sound better than speakers that are colored. The problem with colored speakers is they impart the same color onto everything you play. Versus flat speakers with low distortion that better reveal what's in the recording or movie sound track.

The same goes for your room. Yes, different rooms require more or less treatment depending on, for example, whether you have carpet or not. Your overall treatment budget also dictates what you'll get. But the overall goal of room treatment is to make your room less colored by taming peaks and nulls, ringing, flutter echo, early reflections, and excess ambience. For these the basic strategy is always the same. This short article is mainly about home recording, but all the same principles apply to hi-fi and home theater too:

Acoustic Basics

--Ethan

 

[microstrip]

Wouldn't selecting the components of your choice make more sense before even discussing room acoustics? Not sure if I like the idea of having to select gear based on the type of room acoustics present.

+1!

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Generally you should choose equipment and speakers you like and work the room acoustics to suit, not the other way around. However with challenging rooms such as very small rooms (like the OPs) or rooms with lots of concrete/hard surfaces it is very worthwhile at least taking some types of loudspeakers off your list.

For example in very small rooms I am not sure large dipoles would work because to sound their best they need to be placed quite far from the wall behind them which means you are going to be right on top of them which will probably not sound best. The bigger the radiating area the further away in general you need to be from the source for the comb filters created by a large physical radiating area to smooth out.

Likewise in living rooms with a lot of hard surfaces or minimal opportunity for acoustic treatment I would go out of my way to select speakers with very smooth off axis response, maybe even omnidirectionals OR go the other route and choose speakers with controlled directivity.

 

[P.C.]

Likewise in living rooms with a lot of hard surfaces or minimal opportunity for acoustic treatment I would go out of my way to select speakers with very smooth off axis response, maybe even omnidirectionals OR go the other route and choose speakers with controlled directivity.

Thanks again Nyal for you advice. Interesting what you say in the quote above, as this is why I had on my shortlist both the omni directional Shahinian Lard ( its v tiny and was designed for small spaces) along with their opposite in design the Amphion Ions or Argons which again are supposed to be good in small spaces because of there v controlled directivity design.
Both of which I don't expect I can listen to before purchasing.
Which in your opinion should work best with minimal amounts of acoustic treatment . Which as well as being cheaper I may be able to atchive sucessfully myself.

Or should I still consider a more conventional but possible better balanced or accurate ( as Ethan recommends for long term satisfaction ) speaker such as the Harbeths which in my tiny room may/will? need even more room treatments and possibly the help/employment from a pro at a higher cost.

I'm still left wondering which approach is the most sensible in my situation.

 

[JackD201]

Not enough data for me to make any really useful recommendations but given the room size, there is one piece of advice that I am pretty sure of. Don't forget the rear wall or rather pay as much attention to it as all of the other surfaces. You will likely be sitting very close to it.

 

[P.C.]

Not enough data for me to make any really useful recommendations but given the room size, there is one piece of advice that I am pretty sure of. Don't forget the rear wall or rather pay as much attention to it as all of the other surfaces. You will likely be sitting very close to it.

Thanks Jake, Apart from the info I gave in my posts nos 1 and 3. What type of data should I try ( and how) to collect to enable me to make abetter informed decision as to what type of speaker/ treatments I will need to achieve my stated musical goals.

 

[JackD201]

Hi P.C. if you can provide pics of your construction plan, it would help a lot. It would be easier if we knew not just the layout but also the material and construction of the boundaries. Pics of the room itself would help us visualize the placement and sizes of windows, doors and cabinetry if you don't have the elevation drawings.

 

[P.C.]

Hi P.C. if you can provide pics of your construction plan, it would help a lot. It would be easier if we knew not just the layout but also the material and construction of the boundaries. Pics of the room itself would help us visualize the placement and sizes of windows, doors and cabinetry if you don't have the elevation drawings.

Jack, don't have a drawn plan yet but just took 4 pics from each corner of room ( quite hard in such a small space!) which along with the measurements given earlier ( and added again here ) hopefully gives you some idea of space. Really is an empty room at present. I can /plan to remove all the wooden furniture presently in room, but will put in my cds plus 'frames' picured in the room somewhere.
Apart from that: , a chair, more floor to ceiling shelves al la Vitsoe( well a cheaper rip off!) for books and possibly the system. https://d2lsod3xpjaepj.cloudfront.net/files/assets/1000/219/sizes/950_2x.jpg
a foldable portable work table and any room treatments/ rugs etc.
rooms is:12' 4" long x 9' 3" wide x 7' 10"tall. has hardwood flooring, which is above a 4' deep crawl space.
One 70" x 30" window runs midway along the longer length ( but approx 2/3rds up from floor to ceiling) currently covered with blinds ( would change to curtains if needed) .
A 7' wide floor to ceiling built in closet runs along the opposite wall (which has 2' space behind the doors). The one door is next to this . Pop corn ceiling.



Thanks all again for taking the time help/advise.

 

[DaveyF]

Jake, don't have a drawn plan yet but just took 4 pics from each corner of room ( quite hard in such a small space!) which along with the measurements given earlier ( and added again here ) hopefully gives you some idea of space. Really is an empty room at present. I can /plan to remove all the wooden furniture presently in room, but will put in my cds plus 'frames' picured in the room somewhere.
Apart from that: , a chair, more floor to ceiling shelves al la Vitsoe( well a cheaper rip off!) for books and possibly the system. https://d2lsod3xpjaepj.cloudfront.net/files/assets/1000/219/sizes/950_2x.jpg
a foldable portable work table and any room treatments/ rugs etc.
rooms is:12' 4" long x 9' 3" wide x 7' 10"tall. has hardwood flooring, which is above a 4' deep crawl space.
One 70" x 30" window runs midway along the longer length ( but approx 2/3rds up from fllor to ceiling) currently covered with blinds ( would change to curtains if needed) .
A 7' wide floor to ceiling built in closet runs along the opposite wall (which has 2' space behind the doors). The one door is next to this . Pop corn ceiling.
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Thanks all again for taking the time help/advise.

Wow, I thought I had a tough room...yours is WAAAY worse!
The sub floor and the flex issues with the floor are IMO a major problem. I'm not sure how you can totally address those issues. The ceiling height is low and the overall size is tough. IMHO, a good way to start would be to add bass trapping into the corners and on the wall where the speakers will be firing off. A heavy rug on the floor would be good and some corner traps on the ceiling to wall should also be considered.
I would ask Ethan and his company to give you a plan based on the dimensions....BUT expect to pay some good money and to be scratching your head a lot! Good luck with your endeavor.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Davey - When I saw P.C.'s pics I had to do a double take as well. This is almost identical to my former room. The only difference was that my floor is wood over concrete.

Nyal - I agree with you on the large dipoles not being a good choice for a room that size. Prior to my Genesis G7.1f's I had small Totem Sttafs and they worked remarkably well in a small room. The G7.1f's (dipoles) just did not work, and hence I moved the system out to my LR where they are much happier.

 

[microstrip]

(...) For example in very small rooms I am not sure large dipoles would work because to sound their best they need to be placed quite far from the wall behind them which means you are going to be right on top of them which will probably not sound best. The bigger the radiating area the further away in general you need to be from the source for the comb filters created by a large physical radiating area to smooth out. (...)

IMHO the Quad ESL63 , ESL2812 or similar are an exception to your rule, as they really emulate a point source placed one feet behind the plane of the speaker. Thanks to its concentric drive/crossover system you will have no comb filter effects, and I have listened to them playing great two feet away from the wall and close to the lateral walls.

Besides, the masterly played and recorded Beethoven piano concertos kept in the large box shown in the left of the bottom photo sound great in the Quad's!

 

[P.C.]

Besides, the masterly played and recorded Beethoven piano concertos kept in the large box shown in the left of the bottom photo sound great in the Quad's!

Yes the Murray Perahia set is wonderful. I've always loved listening to Quads ( especially the ESL63) nice to know they may work ok in such a small space. If I get a few more comments that also suggest their sutability I will probably put them at the top of my list.
I have a NOS Marantz cd94 player which if I paired with saya older Quad pre /power amp and the Quad speakers. Would make a rather nice late 80s early 90's vintage system. The period when cd was the bees knee's!