What is the benefit of very expensive DACs?

[ketcham]

I think optimizing any dac you own is pertinent information. The technology is evolving and is a significant reason for their rapid depreciation.

I had years of issues stemming from my power lines. I tried to resolve this using Environmental Potentials products purchased through VH Audio (who I highly recommend as a product and a dealer). I even tore out drywall from the basement ceiling and walls in my living room running a dedicated sub panel and 4 dedicated lines. Still with issues. Even though the source contamination was from different lines, it transmits from the main panel in your home. Each situation is indeed different. An isolation transformer did resolve the AC noise (TORUS brand, unbalanced power) but I still had RF and EF issues. Culprits: LED lights, dimmer switches with LED (that function by rapid on/off cycling of the LED eg Lutron), switch power supplies of home office computer-related gear and even the power supply of a DAC.

Other solutions for my application were - avoid using dimmer switches, better cables with better shielding, placing non-audio gear on power strips with AC filters. Replacing switch power supplies with Sbooster linear power supplies where able - modems, routers, switches.

Also, network optimization helps improve performance significantly.

 

[tobiasrankin]

I think once you're into quality territory (I can think of a couple right around 2K), DACs present the least value as you spend more than any other active component.

including a streamer?

 

[Legolas]

I think once you're into quality territory (I can think of a couple right around 2K), DACs present the least value as you spend more than any other active component.

I don't agree. Just like a TT can be ok, and magical, so can DACs. Remember a DAC is many elements bought together to output analogue from a digital signal.

For example, would you say all pre-amplifiers are equal once you get to 2K. I doubt it.

A DAC far more complex than an average pre-amplifier:

1. A computer of sorts, R2R, FGGA or just a Sabre chip.
2. A gain stage, as in it has to be as good as a top pre-amplifier gain stage to be in the top level SQ for a DAC.
This is a BIG deal, and one many guys searching a new DAC seem to ignore. If the gain stage isn't up to the job, just doesn't matter WTF you do with
a digital engine, filtering, whatever, complete waste of time.
3. Power supply. Many lower priced DACs use a SMPS or a simple and budget conscious LPS with gangs of cheap caps.
Yes can work, but there are levels to be had. Clean power = top sound, dirty power = dirty sound.
4. Input receiver. USB, S/PDIF, Ethernet, Fibre, they all have parts that manipulate the data, it is not a bits are bits = the same.
5. I/V conversion, how the signal is converted to be of use to a gain stage after it exists the chip or FPGA.
6. Chassis and vibration control / RF rejection to name a few.

Probably missed some, but you get my drift.

So IMO a DAC is actually a very complex digital engine, digital receiver and analogue output mated to a gain stage, and powered by an ideal power supply (hopefully). Quite a beast then. Not as simple as it appears. We got very comfortable since the invention of 16/44.1 by Philips back in 1980, and it has taken all this time to bash the hell out of it to sound really good.

I think a lot of the 'they all sound the same' aspect to 2K range DACs, and above as well TBH, is because most multi bit DACs use the same chip, similar PS and similar (in many cases) op amps. Thus they indeed do sound the same to a degree.

I would say listen to more DACs, then see. I hear a real improvement as you go up in price, generally and depending on the brand in question.

The top level DACs leave the digital signature behind, and begin to sound both detailed, more realistic and smooth, bigger dynamics, more depth and layering. Less hifi if you like. I won't say more analogue, as that is old hat, but the target is surely realistic music, live, accurate (sounding). That is what we want from digital IMO. And it can be had by choosing good products.

 

[Legolas]

And yes, streamers IMO do as much potential gains (or damage) as a DAC. Clean data stream from the start, then your DAC has the ingredients to work with. Otherwise you are amplifying noise and corrupted data, which is pretty impossible to fix in any DAC. Data is one and zeros, but is also an analogue signal, so is as fragile as any other signal.

 

[rblnr]

I don't agree. Just like a TT can be ok, and magical, so can DACs. Remember a DAC is many elements bought together to output analogue from a digital signal.

For example, would you say all pre-amplifiers are equal once you get to 2K. I doubt it.

A DAC far more complex than an average pre-amplifier:

1. A computer of sorts, R2R, FGGA or just a Sabre chip.
2. A gain stage, as in it has to be as good as a top pre-amplifier gain stage to be in the top level SQ for a DAC.
This is a BIG deal, and one many guys searching a new DAC seem to ignore. If the gain stage isn't up to the job, just doesn't matter WTF you do with
a digital engine, filtering, whatever, complete waste of time.
3. Power supply. Many lower priced DACs use a SMPS or a simple and budget conscious LPS with gangs of cheap caps.
Yes can work, but there are levels to be had. Clean power = top sound, dirty power = dirty sound.
4. Input receiver. USB, S/PDIF, Ethernet, Fibre, they all have parts that manipulate the data, it is not a bits are bits = the same.
5. I/V conversion, how the signal is converted to be of use to a gain stage after it exists the chip or FPGA.
6. Chassis and vibration control / RF rejection to name a few.

Probably missed some, but you get my drift.

So IMO a DAC is actually a very complex digital engine, digital receiver and analogue output mated to a gain stage, and powered by an ideal power supply (hopefully). Quite a beast then. Not as simple as it appears. We got very comfortable since the invention of 16/44.1 by Philips back in 1980, and it has taken all this time to bash the hell out of it to sound really good.

I think a lot of the 'they all sound the same' aspect to 2K range DACs, and above as well TBH, is because most multi bit DACs use the same chip, similar PS and similar (in many cases) op amps. Thus they indeed do sound the same to a degree.

I would say listen to more DACs, then see. I hear a real improvement as you go up in price, generally and depending on the brand in question.

The top level DACs leave the digital signature behind, and begin to sound both detailed, more realistic and smooth, bigger dynamics, more depth and layering. Less hifi if you like. I won't say more analogue, as that is old hat, but the target is surely realistic music, live, accurate (sounding). That is what we want from digital IMO. And it can be had by choosing good products.

Coupla things:

I wouldn’t compare a TT w/a DAC, it’s a mechanical device and a very different value proposition IMO.

I don’t doubt the complexity of a DAC and in no way diminish the importance of an excellent output stage, for example. And absolutely, I’ve heard more depth, layering, and so on in better DACs vs. cheaper ones.

That said, what I haven’t heard, and I’ve done some comparing, is real value spending, say, MSB dollars, or even more than 10K. Differences are slight, and fall into the realm of things you have to listen for, things you have to work to hear. Generally speaking, you spend more on speakers, you hear it. Same w/amps IMO. DACs, not so much, hence my comment on value.

That said II: I will be getting a new 10K EERA DAC in to compare — some years ago the 13K EERA Tentation CD player was one of the few digital components that I felt provided a clear, easily heard upgrade over DACs in the 5K neighborhood (and I think the output stage had a lot to do w/it btw). Very curious to see how it compares and will try to get some other top DACs in as well to play it against.

 

[QuadDiffuser]

What do you guy's think, either in theory or practice, of using an AC Regenerator and Isolation Transformer together in a system?

Specifically: Wall > PS Audio Regen. > Topaz Iso Trans > simple power strip for Digital (Ethernet Switch, Server and Dac)

The power amp is plugged into Regenerator.

The idea is to optimize the voltage from the wall with the Regen. And then, attenuate the line noise -- from the AC mains and more line noise created by the Regen -- through a Topaz low capacitance Iso transformer which is known for reducing a wide spectrum of common mode noise.

I had been asking the same question recently - inserting a balanced toroidal isolation transformer between a low-wattage source component (like a DAC), and a PS Audio P20 regenerator; the information in this thread may be helpful:
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/power-plant-and-noise/8813/18

 

[spiritofmusic]

Coupla things:

I wouldn’t compare a TT w/a DAC, it’s a mechanical device and a very different value proposition IMO.

I don’t doubt the complexity of a DAC and in no way diminish the importance of an excellent output stage, for example. And absolutely, I’ve heard more depth, layering, and so on in better DACs vs. cheaper ones.

That said, what I haven’t heard, and I’ve done some comparing, is real value spending, say, MSB dollars, or even more than 10K. Differences are slight, and fall into the realm of things you have to listen for, things you have to work to hear. Generally speaking, you spend more on speakers, you hear it. Same w/amps IMO. DACs, not so much, hence my comment on value.

That said II: I will be getting a new 10K EERA DAC in to compare — some years ago the 13K EERA Tentation CD player was one of the few digital components that I felt provided a clear, easily heard upgrade over DACs in the 5K neighborhood (and I think the output stage had a lot to do w/it btw). Very curious to see how it compares and will try to get some other top DACs in as well to play it against.

Robert, would be fascinated to read yr findings. I think the Eera dac range is two-strong, $5k-15k. I would be particularly interested if you could audition the Adante, as well as the pricier Majestuoso.

 

[rblnr]

Initially anyway, I'll be getting the Majestuoso II, and will definitely report back.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Good luck Robert, Eera is a brand that surely deserves the spotlight. I've listened to the Tentation straight for 6 yrs+ now, and it never fails to engage or be totally immersive, only the very harshest discs defeat it's easy going analog-like flow.

Now whether the magic is in the synergy of the Gyropoint cdp transport plus special sauce dac output stage, and thus the Eera dac on it's own not fully having the Tentation level of magic, you'll discover.

 

[LL21]

Personally, I have reconciled in my head like this:

- Digital does 'well' for not much money. The cost to get to 'magic' is gi-normous and one can easily ask 'why bother?'...and for me, the bang for buck IS greater in my experience elsewhere in the system.

That is why i went 2nd hand digital...and waited to upgrade from my $45 Samsung DVD player for YEARS until coming across a 2nd hand Zanden DAC which (for me) was magic the day I heard it. (And i had never even heard of Zanden before.) And i used my Samsung as a transport into the Zanden for years longer until the Samsung broke...and went to Oppo transport.

It was only 10 years later i went whole hog into a latest spec 4-box digital Zanden (DAC and Transport)...again 2nd hand...and pretty much just stopped auditioning or even casually listening to new digital equipment, all the up thru the DCS Vivaldi generation of DACs.

 

[Al M.]

Personally, I have reconciled in my head like this:

- Digital does 'well' for not much money. The cost to get to 'magic' is gi-normous and one can easily ask 'why bother?'...

Sorry to disagree, Lloyd, but my digital setup provides plenty 'magic' for a total of $ 6.5 K (transport > AES/EBU digital cable > DAC, see my signature).

It's not just me talking. Two of my friends with very advanced systems now have my Yggdrasil 2 DAC as well, after they had heard a bunch of very expensive ones in their own systems and chose this one. One friend even has the same digital setup that I have.

In all three systems the DAC feeds its signal into a preamp of more than 5 to 10 times the price, respectively. The 'magic' through tone, dynamics, rhythm as well as truly extraordinary resolution, is worth it.

 

[microstrip]

(...) It was only 10 years later i went whole hog into a latest spec 4-box digital Zanden (DAC and Transport)...again 2nd hand...and pretty much just stopped auditioning or even casually listening to new digital equipment, all the up thru the DCS Vivaldi generation of DACs.

And you can go on listening to your excellent digital, that surely does a lot better than "doing well"...
I can't understand why people feel so "guilty" when they prefer digital. Many digital systems, even vintage, sound great and on a comparable level with great analog. I preferred the Metronome Calypso / C2A to most of the turntable set-up systems I have listened. In fact I could happily keep it and live forever with it. I enjoy the TechDas AF1 as a luxury to have a different sound for some moments, surely enjoyable, but it an audiophile passion, not a musical choice.

And in the end, the Vivaldi stack with the Extreme sounds a lot closer to the standard Studer A80 than any LP ... When I need to refresh my mind from audiophile digressons I just play a Tapeproject master tape!

 

[LL21]

Sorry to disagree, Lloyd, but my digital setup provides plenty 'magic' for a total of $ 6.5 K (transport > AES/EBU digital cable > DAC, see my signature).

It's not just me talking. Two of my friends with very advanced systems now have my Yggdrasil 2 DAC as well, after they had heard a bunch of very expensive ones in their own systems and chose this one. One friend even has the same digital setup that I have.

In all three systems the DAC feeds its signal into a preamp of more than 5 to 10 times the price, respectively. The 'magic' through tone, dynamics, rhythm as well as truly extraordinary resolution, is worth it.

Thanks, Al M...I think your DACs are probably the post-Vivaldi generation I am referring to...digital as we know does advance pretty rapidly.

That said, your budget and mine are actually not that far off from each other when one considers the discount I got (after a ridiculous 10 years of hunting). And so in some respects, we might also agree there more than disagree...I cannot tell you how many times before the Zanden I looked at high end digital (and literally brought my Samsung into the store!) to compare...and found myself disappointed that thousands of dollars did not destroy the little $45 Samsung...yes, of COURSE, they were better but given that they cost 100x-200x more, I just could not get myself to part with my money for probably 7 years I kept that little guy. Eventually of course, I did go to Zanden but it took a lot of listening.

 

[Al M.]

And in the end, the Vivaldi stack with the Extreme sounds a lot closer to the standard Studer A80 than any LP ... When I need to refresh my mind from audiophile digressons I just play a Tapeproject master tape!

That is a very interesting observation!

I haven't heard such a comparison, but I have heard what the extraordinary Vivaldi four-piece stack can do. While I think that massed orchestral violins can sound phenomenal on LP, the massed violins that so far came closest to my live experiences in the concert hall I heard from the Vivaldi stack (on Rockport Lyra speakers).

That is curious, since massed orchestral violins until not too long ago had been considered a particular weak point of digital. And until not too long ago I concurred.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Good one lloyd i understand you completely.
Although i actually bought so called "
good digital, " while i knew better ,waste of money in retrospect
I like Zanden digital as well .

 

[LL21]

That is a very interesting observation!

I haven't heard such a comparison, but I have heard what the extraordinary Vivaldi four-piece stack can do. While I think that massed orchestral violins can sound phenomenal on LP, the massed violins that so far came closest to my live experiences in the concert hall I heard from the Vivaldi stack (on Rockport Lyra speakers).

That is curious, since massed orchestral violins until not too long ago had been considered a particular weak point of digital. And until not too long ago I concurred.

Hold up...you've heard the Rockport Lyra?...can I ask the judges for a 5 minute commercial break? How was it? Was this at Goodwins? I have heard the Altair 2s with the Vivaldi there and Constellations I believe.

How was it? Pls answer if you can...and then we can go back to our regularly scheduled programming...

 

[Al M.]

Hold up...you've heard the Rockport Lyra?...can I ask the judges for a 5 minute commercial break? How was it? Was this at Goodwins? I have heard the Altair 2s with the Vivaldi there and Constellations I believe.

How was it? Pls answer if you can...and then we can go back to our regularly scheduled programming...

It was phenomenal, with orchestral reproduction being the most impressive. Tone, scale and separation of instruments / instrument groups were excellent.

I was also astonished by the way the system could scale in that large room at Goodwin's. It did not just do large scale very well, but was also very good at small-scale intimate presentation, even though I would make a difference between "very good" and "optimal".

 

[morricab]

Personally, I have reconciled in my head like this:

- Digital does 'well' for not much money. The cost to get to 'magic' is gi-normous and one can easily ask 'why bother?'...and for me, the bang for buck IS greater in my experience elsewhere in the system.

That is why i went 2nd hand digital...and waited to upgrade from my $45 Samsung DVD player for YEARS until coming across a 2nd hand Zanden DAC which (for me) was magic the day I heard it. (And i had never even heard of Zanden before.) And i used my Samsung as a transport into the Zanden for years longer until the Samsung broke...and went to Oppo transport.

It was only 10 years later i went whole hog into a latest spec 4-box digital Zanden (DAC and Transport)...again 2nd hand...and pretty much just stopped auditioning or even casually listening to new digital equipment, all the up thru the DCS Vivaldi generation of DACs.

Never heard the Zanden but I think it is using classic Philips 16 bit chips and all tube of course, right? I remember seeing the really antique measurements in Stereophile and wondering but I can easily now believe that it sounds really superb. The Aries Cerat gear is using DAC chips that are only one (or maybe two) generations newer but are still old school 18bit designs...with tube outputs of course.

 

[LL21]

It was phenomenal, with orchestral reproduction being the most impressive. Tone, scale and separation of instruments / instrument groups were excellent.

I was also astonished by the way the system could scale in that large room at Goodwin's. It did not just do large scale very well, but was also very good at small-scale intimate presentation, even though I would make a difference between "very good" and "optimal".

Thank you! If its alright I will PM so I dont eat up air time on this thread...

 

[morricab]

Thanks, Al M...I think your DACs are probably the post-Vivaldi generation I am referring to...digital as we know does advance pretty rapidly.

That said, your budget and mine are actually not that far off from each other when one considers the discount I got (after a ridiculous 10 years of hunting). And so in some respects, we might also agree there more than disagree...I cannot tell you how many times before the Zanden I looked at high end digital (and literally brought my Samsung into the store!) to compare...and found myself disappointed that thousands of dollars did not destroy the little $45 Samsung...yes, of COURSE, they were better but given that they cost 100x-200x more, I just could not get myself to part with my money for probably 7 years I kept that little guy. Eventually of course, I did go to Zanden but it took a lot of listening.

Given how good the Zanden likely is, would you say there is a big advance in digital? I would not as yours has literally some of the earliest commercial chips in it. The Yg of Al. M is also from the old ladder technology (at least the v1 of that model was...not sure about MkII.) and it's designer was the brain behind some of the great DACs of the 90s like the Theta Gen V., which is STILL a great DAC.

i have a couple of DACs from Kinergetics and PS Audio (old PS Audio) that used the now famous UltraAnalog 20 bit modules and they are superbly musical. My Monarchy uses the BurrBrown PCM-63, one of the all-time greats and the AC Kassandra has 8 x AD1865 per channel. These were SOTA chips from the past and used right are still SOTA in many ways.