What is it about the "jump factor" that only expensive speakers get close to "real"?

caesar

Active Member
May 31, 2010
2,933
0
36
#1
The jump factor is one of the critical elements to fool us into suspending disbelief and getting into a state flow listening to music.

When it comes to speaker design, what is it about the "jump factor" that only very expensive speakers seem to get it right?
 

RogerD

Active Member
May 23, 2010
3,146
0
36
BiggestLittleCity
#2
The jump factor is one of the critical elements to fool us into suspending disbelief and getting into a state flow listening to music.

When it comes to speaker design, what is it about the "jump factor" that only very expensive speakers seem to get it right?
Define very expensive. I must admit the "jump" factor can be elusive,but I disagree that one needs to spend a ton of money to acheive it.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,469
0
0
#3
Define very expensive. I must admit the "jump" factor can be elusive,but I disagree that one needs to spend a ton of money to acheive it.
Thanks Roger ..

I find the PSB Alpha B1 to possess that "Jump" factor at less than $300 a pair so ...
 

caesar

Active Member
May 31, 2010
2,933
0
36
#4
Define very expensive. I must admit the "jump" factor can be elusive,but I disagree that one needs to spend a ton of money to acheive it.

Don't fall off your chair, Roger, but IMHO - $50K plus. Listen to a jazz player blow his horn, and how fast the SPLs get up there as he puts everything into it. Speakers below that range just do it right for me. Vivid Giya and Maxx 3 are best examples
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,469
0
0
#5
Caesar
WOuld the MG 20.1 THe Soundlab ESL, THe Vandersteen Quattro , The Wilson Sasha, The VOn Sweikert VR5, The MArtin Logan Summit-X, The Zu Defintiion, the ... The Magnepan 3.7, The Magico Q3, The Rockport Mira, The (hesitation, list is sooo long), The MArtin Logan CLX, The Sanders ESL, And about 467 other pairs of speakers under 50K have that "Jump ' Factor .. Come On man!.. Ok you like the Wilson line of speakers, especially the upper echelon and that is OK but this is one of these threads that will NOT lead to anything that will help anyone either build a system or make an existing one better .. I could be wrong .. I doubt it .. lurking mode ON! :)
 

RogerD

Active Member
May 23, 2010
3,146
0
36
BiggestLittleCity
#6
Don't fall off your chair, Roger, but IMHO - $50K plus. Listen to a jazz player blow his horn, and how fast the SPLs get up there as he puts everything into it. Speakers below that range just do it right for me. Vivid Giya and Maxx 3 are best examples
Caesar I hate when I fall of the chair.:b
 

treitz3

Super Moderator
#7
I have heard 50K plus speakers that have sounded worse than a pair at 1/10 the cost, in a treated room nonetheless. Cost can mean very little in this hobby, at least from my point of view.
 

caesar

Active Member
May 31, 2010
2,933
0
36
#8
Caesar
WOuld the MG 20.1 THe Soundlab ESL, THe Vandersteen Quattro , The Wilson Sasha, The VOn Sweikert VR5, The MArtin Logan Summit-X, The Zu Defintiion, the ... The Magnepan 3.7, The Magico Q3, The Rockport Mira, The (hesitation, list is sooo long), The MArtin Logan CLX, The Sanders ESL, And about 467 other pairs of speakers under 50K have that "Jump ' Factor .. Come On man!.. Ok you like the Wilson line of speakers, especially the upper echelon and that is OK but this is one of these threads that will NOT lead to anything that will help anyone either build a system or make an existing one better .. I could be wrong .. I doubt it .. lurking mode ON! :)
Frantz, sorry - many of the ones you listed just don't think they have the "perfect" jump factor! Now don't get me wrong, many of the speakers you list are very fine transducers, and we are talking about errors are of omission, so they are easier to ignore / suspend disbelief. Nevertheless, realism suffers. And to me - an admitted high end audio snob - is a big deal. And that's why peop

Also, a lot of the planars you bring up just don't have that jump factor. Magnepan is just not as fast at the Wilson or the Giya. It's impossible for a full range stat or planar to get up that SPL fast - and then drop off. Just laws of physics. Imagine Miles Davis blowing all out (fast!) or a sharp piano key stroke in the real world vs. on an audio system. It just doesn't sound real on most speakers. If you have a dealer in your area, do the check yourself. You may be surprised in what you learn if you a/b the Magnepan or CLX and a $50K + speaker, or you may subjectively not think it's a big deal. But that's why people pay big bucks for speakers, IMO... And I have a pair of Soundlabs in my home and LOVE them for acoustic type music and vocal.

For the record, I like Wilson, but they are not my favorites. I like Vivid Giyas and MBLs better. And the Vivid may have the best jump factor today of anyone.
 

RogerD

Active Member
May 23, 2010
3,146
0
36
BiggestLittleCity
#9
I have a pair of Fulton FMI speakers I bought new for 50 bucks and they image like crazy and are very dynamic. They happen to be my psycho speakers that I use with my Dynaudio customs. Only when I want to be scared out of my wits,do I play the soundtrack from the Red Violin.

There are some speaker builders that in the past have done a exceptional job. Test drive some current less then $$$$ you might find a jewel. Also that jump factor is system dependent of course.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,469
0
0
#10
Frantz, sorry - many of the ones you listed just don't think they have the "perfect" jump factor! Now don't get me wrong, many of the speakers you list are very fine transducers, and we are talking about errors are of omission, so they are easier to ignore / suspend disbelief. Nevertheless, realism suffers. And to me - an admitted high end audio snob - is a big deal. And that's why peop

Also, a lot of the planars you bring up just don't have that jump factor. Magnepan is just not as fast at the Wilson or the Giya. It's impossible for a full range stat or planar to get up that SPL fast - and then drop off. Just laws of physics. Imagine Miles Davis blowing all out (fast!) or a sharp piano key stroke in the real world vs. on an audio system. It just doesn't sound real on most speakers. If you have a dealer in your area, do the check yourself. You may be surprised in what you learn if you a/b the Magnepan or CLX and a $50K + speaker, or you may subjectively not think it's a big deal. But that's why people pay big bucks for speakers, IMO... And I have a pair of Soundlabs in my home and LOVE them for acoustic type music and vocal.

For the record, I like Wilson, but they are not my favorites. I like Vivid Giyas and MBLs better. And the Vivid may have the best jump factor today of anyone.
Caesar

It will be the first time that I would have heard that a cone-based speaker is faster than an electrostat or a planar ribbon... Your position is unique and likely not shared with the majority of people on this board or others... I can't fight an opinion.. I do however know that yours is very far from what the facts can repeatedly demonstrate.
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
3,973
0
0
NSW Australia
#11
There are some speaker builders that in the past have done a exceptional job. Test drive some current less then $$$$ you might find a jewel. Also that jump factor is system dependent of course.
That's the nub of the answer. Extremely expensive setups can fail miserably, extremely cheap can do brilliantly: it's all about the level of tuning and appropriate combining of components. A badly maintained Ferrari will be a disaster, a cheap, every day vehicle with its engine lovingly brought up to a high performance level will thrash it: it's as simple as that ...

Frank
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
10,996
10
38
Manila, Philippines
#12
Horns are King when it comes to Jump. Vintage DIY isn't expensive in relative terms :)
 

caesar

Active Member
May 31, 2010
2,933
0
36
#13
Caesar

It will be the first time that I would have heard that a cone-based speaker is faster than an electrostat or a planar ribbon... Your position is unique and likely not shared with the majority of people on this board or others... I can't fight an opinion.. I do however know that yours is very far from what the facts can repeatedly demonstrate.
Frantz, in this case this is not a subjective matter, but a matter of objective reality.

I agree with you about the superior transient speed of stats. But dynamics is not the same as transient speed. Stats do have superior dynamics from a whisper to the speaking voice range (ppp to mp). But then the physical limitations kick in and they cannot go from very soft to very loud. Dynamic speakers are superior in dynamics from the speaking voice to very loud (mf to fff).

Like I said above, visit a dealer who has both speakers and listen with an open mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dynamic's_Note_Velocity.svg
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
10,996
10
38
Manila, Philippines
#14
Don't discount the jump a huge wave launch can bring to the jump factor table Caesar.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,469
0
0
#15
Caesar

My main problem with your approach is the price tag A speaker like the Zu Essence at $5000 or the Defintion at twice that will doit to you aand have you running out of the room :) .. It is not an issue of price.
AS Jack mentioned.. In that area Horns are king... High Efficiency in general are king. You don't need to spend $50K to have that

I also believe that low efficiency speakers with the appropriate amplification simulate that very well.. Exemple Soundlab or Magnepan or a speaker like the spectacular Revel Salon 2 with 500 watts of serious amps will do that in spades.
 

puroagave

Member Sponsor
Sep 30, 2011
1,297
0
0
#16
Don't fall off your chair, Roger, but IMHO - $50K plus. Listen to a jazz player blow his horn, and how fast the SPLs get up there as he puts everything into it. Speakers below that range just do it right for me. Vivid Giya and Maxx 3 are best examples
I heard the vivid giya under show conditions - so take it with a grain of salt - neither did it raise goose bumps or cause me to jump ;) The few systems ive heard that have the JF in spades are high efficiency, acoustic horn/compression driver types like the acapella, avantgarde and jadis eurythmie. They project sounds from ppp to fff and even fffff in nothing flat, at live levels and low distortion.

On the opposite end, the quad esl does the JF thing very well. even through crappy computer speakers you get a sense in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0wxjPoccVg
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
9,483
0
0
#17
I guess I need Caesar to define “jump factor.” My lowly Def Tech 7000SC speakers that only sold for $5498 per pair coupled with a pair of the matching Super Cube Reference subs that sell for $1899 each, I certainly have what I consider to be jump factor. There are a total of 9 drivers in each 7000SC speaker, one of which is a 14” sub powered by an 1800 watt amp. Sandy Gross has gone on record and said he will compare the bass quality of the 7000SC speakers to any speaker on the market costing up to $50K. Bold claim, but he was the designer. The Super Cube Reference subs have the same 14 sub and also have the same two 14” passive radiators also powered by 1800 watt amps. That’s a total of 7200 watts and four 14” active drivers and eight 14” passive radiators moving air. Add everything together, I have a total of 24 drivers moving air in my room.

When you hear a well recorded jazz player blowing on his horn as you say, it can certainly make you jump if you aren’t ready for it. So, $9296 buys you a total of 494 lbs of speakers with 24 drivers and 7200 watts of sub power. This represents lots of air moving and with it comes pressurization. If that doesn’t make you jump, it probably means you are a paraplegic.

Too bad Def Tech speakers are mainly marketed as part of a HT system and usually the speakers are shoved up against a wall and powered by an AVR. I don’t think tons of people have heard them in a two channel system driven by high-end gear. Oh, and they are rated for 1000 watts of input power as well. I have never heard thermal compression set in and nor have I ever heard the drivers distort.

Bottom line is that I don’t think you have to spend at least $50K to get a jump factor happening in your room.
 

caesar

Active Member
May 31, 2010
2,933
0
36
#18
I guess I need Caesar to define “jump factor.” My lowly Def Tech 7000SC speakers that only sold for $5498 per pair coupled with a pair of the matching Super Cube Reference subs that sell for $1899 each, I certainly have what I consider to be jump factor. There are a total of 9 drivers in each 7000SC speaker, one of which is a 14” sub powered by an 1800 watt amp. Sandy Gross has gone on record and said he will compare the bass quality of the 7000SC speakers to any speaker on the market costing up to $50K. Bold claim, but he was the designer. The Super Cube Reference subs have the same 14 sub and also have the same two 14” passive radiators also powered by 1800 watt amps. That’s a total of 7200 watts and four 14” active drivers and eight 14” passive radiators moving air. Add everything together, I have a total of 24 drivers moving air in my room.

When you hear a well recorded jazz player blowing on his horn as you say, it can certainly make you jump if you aren’t ready for it. So, $9296 buys you a total of 494 lbs of speakers with 24 drivers and 7200 watts of sub power. This represents lots of air moving and with it comes pressurization. If that doesn’t make you jump, it probably means you are a paraplegic.

Too bad Def Tech speakers are mainly marketed as part of a HT system and usually the speakers are shoved up against a wall and powered by an AVR. I don’t think tons of people have heard them in a two channel system driven by high-end gear. Oh, and they are rated for 1000 watts of input power as well. I have never heard thermal compression set in and nor have I ever heard the drivers distort.

Bottom line is that I don’t think you have to spend at least $50K to get a jump factor happening in your room.

MEP, you bring up good points. And we are talking about subjectivity - and paying considerably more for something. All I can say is , listen to the Giya. Other than the excellent horn speaker examples Jack and Puroagave bring up (and they have their own issues!), Giya has the best jump factor I have heard in any speaker.

Is it worth the money to you? Again, subjective. I will be starting thread that will be taking a deep dive look at subjectivity soon, if I can get my life in order.
 

caesar

Active Member
May 31, 2010
2,933
0
36
#19
Caesar

My main problem with your approach is the price tag A speaker like the Zu Essence at $5000 or the Defintion at twice that will doit to you aand have you running out of the room :) .. It is not an issue of price.
AS Jack mentioned.. In that area Horns are king... High Efficiency in general are king. You don't need to spend $50K to have that

I also believe that low efficiency speakers with the appropriate amplification simulate that very well.. Exemple Soundlab or Magnepan or a speaker like the spectacular Revel Salon 2 with 500 watts of serious amps will do that in spades.
Frantz, yes I am a big fan of heavy duty amplification. But even biamping something like the Soundlab with 700 wpc only gets you as far.

There is something that these more expensive do to get a superior jump factor, and that's what I want to know myself.
 

treitz3

Super Moderator
#20
I guess I need Caesar to define jump factor.
Hello, mep. Agreed. There are many factors of reproduction and what folks actually listen for. A clear and precise definition of the "jump factor" as it relates to the aspects of reproduction he is listening too [or for] will help this thread more than anything.
 

About us

  • Founded in 2010 What's Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing