turntables; high level anti-resonance----active (Herzan) platforms, Minus K, air bladder (Stacore) platforms, or others?

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
18,805
3,126
810
Portugal
Yeah "where is this coming from" does not literally mean what you wrote is false - rather, it is irrelevant, because we are not aiming to take accurate measurements with such a device, rather a rough close-up of mechanical noise seeping into the equipment, similar to a basic microscope. I don't think it's hard to understand the basic concept and fundamental issue.

Yes, in this hobby we can consider anything irrelevant, as long as we like it. My main point is that, in general, use of rough instruments can lead to misleading results. IMHO once we understand the basic concept and fundamental issue of frequency response we see the problems on the method when using a flawed instrument.

Fortunately most designers and manufacturers rely on proper instruments.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
18,805
3,126
810
Portugal
That's my goal. I used a 3M Littmann Classic III for my last turntable review and for general poking around. The small bell has a flap over it. Good for high or low frequency.

View attachment 73120

Tim,
Did you conclude anything of relevance when using of the stethoscope in the review?
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,830
3,140
870
Utah
David, i'll only comment that my comment is not in any way a criticism of the AS-2000. there are good reasons for a separate plinth and motor box in a string drive design. it isolates the motor from the plinth. it's a valid approach.

self noise relates to resonance sensed from gear sitting on an active device. if the sensors detect resonance inherent in that piece of gear then the active device will attenuate it, but since it will not go away a loop is created which increases the noise, not reducing it. most tt's will generate self noise as that is a method to drain off resonance from the plinth/platter. but some turntables don't generate self noise. some is inherent in a design approach but with some designs it's not clear what might happen.

i have no illusions you will agree.
Yet you did mention AS2000 specifically!

The argument has always been that Herzan wasn't developed for mechanically moving components, period. I don't know what self noise is but every turntable including your NVS has some level of vibration, period! Herzan will react in the same manner dealing with that type of vibration, wether one likes the sound influenced by it is subjective, the effect isn't.

david
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,830
3,140
870
Utah
I'll respectfully have to agree to disagree. In my view, any noise you can hear with a stethoscope = bad. No noise= good. To say some noise is good or that it needs to be there so it can "drain" properly is like saying, well, second order harmonic distortion from tubes is a good thing because it makes music sound better. Distortion is distortion and noise is noise IMHO.
I have to disagree on this Marty, that's like saying hearing a heartbeat=bad but no heart beat=good :) . Like a heartbeat some level of noise is part and parcel of functioning mechanical machinery the only thing a stethoscope might help confirm is the sound is different from what is supposed to be. But you have to know what normal behavior is first.

david
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lagonda

Lagonda

VIP/Donor
Feb 4, 2014
2,503
2,881
730
Denmark
As long as noise in the stethoscope does not translate into noise into the cartridge and speakers, who cares :rolleyes:
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
9,491
6,371
1,335
North Shore of Boston
I think Marc (Spiritofmusic) is experimenting with adding dampening material to the inside of his new turntable motor housing. I believe he reported that he had gone to far at eliminating noise, and found the sound from his system improved when he removed some of the dampening. I don't know if he bothered with a stethoscope, but he did make judgements based on listening.

There are all types of noise. Absorbing or dampening it or attempting to eliminate it may or may not cause other problems in terms of the overall enjoyment of one's system. The goal is to enjoy the system, not to simply remove all detectable noise. I have heard "noise reducing" power cords which for me worsened the sound quality of a system. I do not think one can generalize that "all noise is bad". I think it depends, and I don't know enough to write more than that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lagonda

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
13,779
4,424
863
E. England
From what I can see, the new SAT tt has maybe taken noise mitigation measures to their ultimate zenith. My guess is there will be plenty of people who will feel it's sound is too damped or deadened. Coincidence or consequence of eliminating 99.9999% of noise?
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
13,779
4,424
863
E. England
I think Marc (Spiritofmusic) is experimenting with adding dampening material to the inside of his new turntable motor housing. I believe he reported that he had gone to far at eliminating noise, and found the sound from his system improved when he removed some of the dampening. I don't know if he bothered with a stethoscope, but he did make judgements based on listening.

There are all types of noise. Absorbing or dampening it or attempting to eliminate it may or may not cause other problems in terms of the overall enjoyment of one's system. The goal is to enjoy the system, not to simply remove all detectable noise. I have heard "noise reducing" power cords which for me worsened the sound quality of a system. I do not think one can generalize that "all noise is bad". I think it depends, and I don't know enough to write more than that.
Peter, the SOTA motor pod has no vibration measures built into it at all. And since my tt is direct rim drive, I have my work cut out mitigating transfer of noise/vibrations from the motor thru the rim wheel into my platter, and thence to the stylus. Hence my need to fuss in this area.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
9,491
6,371
1,335
North Shore of Boston
Peter, the SOTA motor pod has no vibration measures built into it at all. And since my tt is direct rim drive, I have my work cut out mitigating transfer of noise/vibrations from the motor thru the rim wheel into my platter, and thence to the stylus. Hence my need to fuss in this area.

My point was that I thought you had gone to far and overdamped the motor casing. and that you didn’t like the sonic result. Am I mistaken?
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
13,779
4,424
863
E. England
Oh, I had. And I'm likely to remove some more damping. Audio is a constant process of fine tuning atm.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,775
1,174
580
Boston, MA
My main point is that, in general, use of rough instruments can lead to misleading results. IMHO once we understand the basic concept and fundamental issue of frequency response we see the problems on the method when using a flawed instrument.
Sorry, but some of us find nothing wrong with using a limited-scope stethoscope for the applications we have been talking about. Nothing misleading about it, really. Just because the instrument is "flawed" from your perspective, it still does not render it flawed for what we use it for, and how we use it. It looks we have different expectations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tima

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
3,899
4,106
745
the Upper Midwest
Tim,
Did you conclude anything of relevance when using of the stethoscope in the review?

"I put my ear close to each ‘table as it rotated at 33 1/3 and heard nothing, nada, zilch. Using a Littman Classic III medical-grade stethoscope on two spots on each plinth, above a footer and between footers, the 2.0 yielded a very faint low-frequency non-rotational sound, whereas the 1.5 was definitely louder, though still quiet." review
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scott Naylor

TLi

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2016
287
534
198
Happy new year everyone. Hope 2021 is a much better year.

In designing the Herzan active isolation table for my Air Force turntable, I had lengthy discussion with the scientific officer of Herzan dealer. He is a engineer and his job is to provide vibration control solutions to various laboratories and factories, often involves with large equipment occupying a room and weighs in tons. He knows nothing about HiFi and turntable. I explained my needs and concerns which also include the problem of vibration coming from the turntable.

In his design, he had a reference plane where vibration sensors were placed. Often the reference plane was the floor but he raised the plane to the top of the steel table which the AVI modules were mounted. In this way, the vibration from the turntable would be less "felt". The main purpose was to control vibration coming from the floor and reached the table top. This ensured anything above the reference plane was isolated.

The result is very good and obvious better than the previous TS-150. There are more than one way to solve a problem. Passive isolation can be effective as well but the performance is not so good in lower frequency. Active isolation if done correctly should have the edge. C11V5691.jpg
 
Last edited:

asdffx

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2011
14
0
306
Happy new year everyone. Hope 2021 is a much better year.

In designing the Herzan active isolation table for my Air Force turntable, I had lengthy discussion with the scientific officer of Herzan dealer. He is a engineer and his job is to provide vibration control solutions to various laboratories and factories, often involves with large equipment occupying a room and weighs in tons. He knows nothing about HiFi and turntable. I explained my needs and concerns which also include the problem of vibration coming from the turntable.

In his design, he had a reference plane where vibration sensors were placed. Often the reference plane was the floor but he raised the plane to the top of the steel table which the AVI modules were mounted. In this way, the vibration from the turntable would be less "felt". The main purpose was to control vibration coming from the floor and reached the table top. This ensured anything above the reference plane was isolated.

The result is very good and obvious better than the previous TS-150. There are more than one way to solve a problem. Passive isolation can be effective as well but the performance is not so good in lower frequency. Active isolation if done correctly should have the edge. View attachment 73145
You can look into minusk tech detail, it is passive isolation, but have even better performance than active in low frequency .....

 

asdffx

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2011
14
0
306
A HK friend of mine just bought a Minus-K platform for his Micro Seiki 8000.
It's the new ultra thin CT2 model.

View attachment 70739

https://www.minusk.com/products/ct2-ultra-thin-low-height-vibration-isolation-platform.html

He ordered a top-plate big enough for the motor module & the main body and a DS Audio ION tower :

View attachment 70737
View attachment 70738
Why not buy BM-4 or BM1, CT2 is only thin ,not performance.....
CT2 price can buy BM1 with better performance..
 

Seismion

New Member
Dec 9, 2021
8
14
3
Hannover, Germany
seismion.com
Hello guys,
I am new to this forum. I am director of a young and innovative company from Hannover, Germany. We are developing active vibration isolators, similar to the ones from Accurion and TableStable. They include self-developed piezoelectric sensors and voice coil actuators, connected by a feedback loop.
I am also very familiar with other competitors like MinusK, TMC and Newport.

Our main target are industrial customers in the field of metrology, laser and 3d-printing, but we are also considering to bring out a version for Hifi Audio.
Based on our own measurements, our isolators offer a far better isolation performance than the Accurion i4, especially in the low-frequency range. Due to our dedicated noise-free electronics, we can also reach the toughtest vibration criteria curves required for todays industry and beyond.
Beside that, we can allow larger control forces to stabilize the vibrations generated by the turntable itself.

Attached is a flyer of our industrial product, the end-consumer product will most likely look a bit different, but will have the same inner specs.

We are considering to send out some demo samples to interested guys which want to try it out. Is this a good forum to ask?

I am very curious to get you feedback!

Cheers,
Marcus
 

Attachments

  • Flyer_Reactio.pdf
    1.2 MB · Views: 47

TLi

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2016
287
534
198
I am new to this forum. I am director of a young and innovative company from Hannover, Germany. We are developing active vibration isolators, similar to the ones from Accurion and TableStable. They include self-developed piezoelectric sensors and voice coil actuators, connected by a feedback loop.
I am also very familiar with other competitors like MinusK, TMC and Newport.

Our main target are industrial customers in the field of metrology, laser and 3d-printing, but we are also considering to bring out a version for Hifi Audio.
Based on our own measurements, our isolators offer a far better isolation performance than the Accurion i4, especially in the low-frequency range. Due to our dedicated noise-free electronics, we can also reach the toughtest vibration criteria curves required for todays industry and beyond.
Beside that, we can allow larger control forces to stabilize the vibrations generated by the turntable itself.

Attached is a flyer of our industrial product, the end-consumer product will most likely look a bit different, but will have the same inner specs.

We are considering to send out some demo samples to interested guys which want to try it out. Is this a good forum to ask?

I am very curious to get you feedback!

Cheers,
Marcus
Hi Marcus,

Good to know you are developing active isolation solutions to HiFi gears. I use multiple active isolation platforms in my system and have good result. There are four active platforms from smaller Nano 40 Accurion to AVS from Herzan with LFS.

I am very interested to know more about your products and hope you can keep me posted for any new development.

Thomas
 

Seismion

New Member
Dec 9, 2021
8
14
3
Hannover, Germany
seismion.com
Thanks for all your feedback so far! Really appreciate it.

Just to clarify - the development of our first isolator "Reactio" is finished, and it is already in use at some industry clients.
Right now we are evaluating the market potential for high-quality audio devices. And also how much improvement the user will get in the audio reproduction by such an active isolation. (If there is no real improvement, then it is no need to go further in this direction)
Therefore, our first idea is to get into touch with experts like you. We would also like to send some (free of charge) demo samples for example to some local stores or dealers, which can show it to their customers, or to some 'influencer', which could review our product on their channels.

If you have any suggestions, or some detail questions, I am happy to discuss it all with you.

Marcus
 

TLi

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2016
287
534
198
Thanks for all your feedback so far! Really appreciate it.

Just to clarify - the development of our first isolator "Reactio" is finished, and it is already in use at some industry clients.
Right now we are evaluating the market potential for high-quality audio devices. And also how much improvement the user will get in the audio reproduction by such an active isolation. (If there is no real improvement, then it is no need to go further in this direction)
Therefore, our first idea is to get into touch with experts like you. We would also like to send some (free of charge) demo samples for example to some local stores or dealers, which can show it to their customers, or to some 'influencer', which could review our product on their channels.

If you have any suggestions, or some detail questions, I am happy to discuss it all with you.

Marcus
I am happy to try your Reactio in my system and report on the improvement.

It can also be used as demo in local audio dealers which I am familiar with. They may want to be your dealer, just send me personal message to arrange.

Thomas
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
10,260
5,193
1,265
Beverly Hills, CA
Welcome to WBF, Marcus!

You have come to the right forum! Many members here are focused on vibration isolation products.

Please tell us more about why your isolators make your product superior to, for example, the Herzan.

Several of our members use a linear power supply made by a third-party to power their active isolation platforms, instead of the power supply that comes with the platform. What is it about your electronics that makes them "noise free"?
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing