Transitioning from Electrostatics???

krelldog

New Member
Apr 4, 2018
15
5
3
#1
I have been listening to Martin Logans for the the last 15 years. I have worked my way up the ladder to my current martin Logan Montis's.

I have no issues with them...in fact I love how they sound. However like all audio junkies..i'm bored and considering a change.

I'm considering Focal Sopra No.2 or maybe Focal Sopra No.3's. I'm also considering Magico A 3's.

I'm open to all thoughts and opinions. If I switch to a non Electrostatic...what should I expect-good and bad.

Thanks in advance for any and all opinions.

BTW-Current associated gear include- Pass Int 60-----VPI Prime Signature---Ortofon Cadenza Bronze----Plinius Koru Phono Pre----Yiggy Dac----Audience Cabling
 
Likes: Number9

sujay

Member Sponsor
May 5, 2012
304
31
28
Singapore
#2
DeVore Fidelity Orangutan and Pure Audio Project come to mind. Ask Bozo 75. He has heard the orangutan o/96 extensively and I think they will work with the Pass Integrated. Though both are high efficiency designs and a totally different direction I feel. The orangutans apparently are very coherent so you may not lose that aspect of the stats.
 
Likes: bonzo75

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
9,613
365
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London
#3
Hi Krelldog, I owned Martin Logan summits before starting a multi year speaker search. I heard many cones, panels (apogees, analysis audio, etc) and now love the new Logan hybrids. I never took to the CLX or CLS.

The speakers I love more than Logans and other panels are big horns. However, the good ones are either too expensive or too big for a London apartment (or both). The compromised smaller higher efficiency models I found lacking on many aspects.

Until I came across the devore orangutan O96. I found this better than the 20k and 65k Lansche model in the same room. A well known audiophile on the forums, Caelin, who is the chief of Shunyata went from Wilson Sasha to these five years ago and is extremely happy. He owns many amps from constellation centaur to various SET amps and they work with all of them. Art Dudley of stereophile bought these after reviewing them for a year and a half.

Also read the speakers this reviewer had and his rating of the devore
https://www.dagogo.com/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o96-loudspeaker-review-part-3/
I have heard these with many SETs and also a push pull and they work with all. They will work with pass integrated and first watt SIT. You could also buy a low priced 10 - 20w integrated set amp.

They look look AN E but don't sound the same. I prefer these. They are extremely transparent to vinyl recordings, they have great flow and tone, and they do height with their stage like the Logans.

If you can audition them, do so. Else worth taking a punt with an used price of around 7k with good resale value, easy to transport and move around in the house. Plus you don't have to sit in the sweet spot, they look nice. If you don't want speakers that need to be pulled out 3 feet or more look at Tannoys but tougher to get right. Can sound real bad in some implementations.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
5,575
317
83
Beverly Hills, CA
#4
I have had Martin-Logan loudspeakers for 18 years: Monoliths then Monolith IIIs then Prodigys. I also had Sequel IIs and Ascent IIs in smaller systems.

After a long loudspeaker search, including big horns systems and dynamic driver speakers and various planars and Martin-Logan’s Neolith, I decided to give up one smidgeon of transparency for two smidgeons more corporeal body by switching from electrostatic to ribbon loudspeakers. I think the most important big ribbon system in production today is the Genesis Technologies Prime/Dragon.

My first question is: what is your primary musical genre interest?

My second question is: if you are happy with electrostatics why would you switch away from them?

My third question is: have you heard the Neolith? I think the Neolith, driven by high-power tube amplifiers, is fantastic (not my ultimate favorite, but fantastic).
 

christoph

Active Member
Dec 12, 2015
646
147
43
Principality of Liechtenstein
#5
I have been listening to Martin Logans for the the last 15 years. I have worked my way up the ladder to my current martin Logan Montis's.

I have no issues with them...in fact I love how they sound. However like all audio junkies..i'm bored and considering a change.

I'm considering Focal Sopra No.2 or maybe Focal Sopra No.3's. I'm also considering Magico A 3's.

I'm open to all thoughts and opinions. If I switch to a non Electrostatic...what should I expect-good and bad.

Thanks in advance for any and all opinions.

BTW-Current associated gear include- Pass Int 60-----VPI Prime Signature---Ortofon Cadenza Bronze----Plinius Koru Phono Pre----Yiggy Dac----Audience Cabling
What model of Martin Logan do you own?
Why not keep the ML's (resale value would probably be frustrating anyways) and add a used pair of devore orangutan O96 Ked loves so much and have both flavors?
I'm pretty confident, you would miss the ML's anyways, resulting in big sellers remorse ;)

Oh, almost forgot: I don't like any of your considerations too much. Before I would buy any of those, I would definitely keep the ML's or even better, find a pair of restored Apogee Duettas.
Where are you located?
 
Last edited:
Feb 5, 2014
162
3
18
59
Long Island, NY
#6
Well, horns will give you a more live experience, with dynamics you can;t get elsewhere, but you might have to revamp your whole system for them, like going to low powered tube amps.

Other panels, especially ribbon speakers like Apogee will give you similar sound to what you have now. Not sure if that i a transition or just a lateral move.

Cone speakers, well that is going backwards IMO.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
9,613
365
83
London
#7
Well, horns will give you a more live experience, with dynamics you can;t get elsewhere, but you might have to revamp your whole system for them, like going to low powered tube amps.

Other panels, especially ribbon speakers like Apogee will give you similar sound to what you have now. Not sure if that i a transition or just a lateral move.

Cone speakers, well that is going backwards IMO.
Best succinct accurate reply
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 23, 2010
3,563
24
38
Monument, CO
#8
After owning Magnepans since 1979 I switched to Revel Salon2's last year. I have heard many ESLs and ribbons over the years, some in my system, most at dealer's or friend's places, so have at least some reference. The conventional speakers are not as "dynamic" as horns but better than my Maggies, have much more (and better -- lower distortion) bass, and mine have a pretty seamless transition among drivers (one of the problems I have had with many conventional speaker systems). They do not have as big a "feel" as the big panels but nor do they have the back wave to deal with (less comb filtering, and imaging may be better -- my room is heavily treated for the dipoles so didn't really change). Distortion and transient response have improved greatly in conventional designs over the years.

Going from large panels to conventional I knew I wanted larger models to provide a similar "wall of sound". In the past I have have everything from small bookshelves to IRS and have never been happy with small speakers in front of me. Some of it is psychological, sure, but also many of the smaller speakers do not reach low enough, cleanly enough, to provide a convincing sound stage to me. I like having the midrange and tweeter higher, and wanted clean bass at least an octave below the crossover to my subs as there is still significant energy down there (crossovers are not brick walls). As one of the horrible much-hated objectivist dweebs on site, I appreciated the detailed specifications and attention to technical perfection that Revel offered, and several other speakers I heard in the $20k~$30k range simply did not sound as good to me. I spent only a little time listening, not many choices around here, but do not remember Focals as standing out good or bad (which is actually a good thing). I have never heard Magico.

HTH, FWIWFM, IME, IMO, YMMV, my 0.000001 cent (microcent) - Don
 

krelldog

New Member
Apr 4, 2018
15
5
3
#9
I mainly listen to Classic Rock-Although I also love female vocalists, blues and some jazz.

I'm located in Cleveland ,Ohio. All the great audio stores are long gone, so it makes it hard to audition new gear.

I've picked the above speaker companies based on reviews and pleasing aesthetics.

I'm considering keeping my M/L Montis's so I wouldn't have buyers remorse.

Why would I change when I'm happy with what I have? Lets face it..audiophiles aren't the most logical people on planet earth. I can always go back to electrostatics. In fact if I did I would probably just go up the electrostatic food chain another notch or two.

Because I don't have much local support, forums like this are generally my only sounding board. I greatly appreciate the suggestions. I'll look into the DeVore Fidelity Orangutan suggestion and also the Revel's.

Thanks again and keep the tips and ideas coming.
 
Sep 8, 2010
31
1
8
#10
... I'm located in Cleveland ,Ohio. All the great audio stores are long gone, so it makes it hard to audition new gear.
Are there any audiophile clubs in the Cleveland area where you could hear other speakers?

If not, maybe you can escape the cold for a weekend trip to Tampa, Feb 8-10, for the Florida Audio Expo! :D

BTW, you should also listen to the new ML Impression 11a's or Expression 13a's, as they are a major step up from the Montis.
 

krelldog

New Member
Apr 4, 2018
15
5
3
#11
Sleepy- I see you have the M/L Expression ESL 13a's. Can you share your thoughts on them? They are a big upgrade from the Montis"s ?
 
Oct 1, 2014
55
12
8
#12
I mainly listen to Classic Rock-Although I also love female vocalists, blues and some jazz.
One area where electrostats & ribbons excel is the human voice...
If moving away from them to cones you should make sure there is no crossover in the 300 - 3000
That will narrow the field considerably - though - I would consider the Vandersteen Carbon 5 which is 600 - 5000
At the other end of the spectrum I would also consider Natural Sound Samurai speakers 250 - 2500 (picture below)
My gut tells me these SHOULD sound sensational to an electrostats & ribbon owner looking for a change
My ribbons crossover from bass drivers @ 420 then go all the way to 18000

 

sujay

Member Sponsor
May 5, 2012
304
31
28
Singapore
#13
I mainly listen to Classic Rock-Although I also love female vocalists, blues and some jazz.

I'm located in Cleveland ,Ohio. All the great audio stores are long gone, so it makes it hard to audition new gear.

I've picked the above speaker companies based on reviews and pleasing aesthetics.

I'm considering keeping my M/L Montis's so I wouldn't have buyers remorse.

Why would I change when I'm happy with what I have? Lets face it..audiophiles aren't the most logical people on planet earth. I can always go back to electrostatics. In fact if I did I would probably just go up the electrostatic food chain another notch or two.

Because I don't have much local support, forums like this are generally my only sounding board. I greatly appreciate the suggestions. I'll look into the DeVore Fidelity Orangutan suggestion and also the Revel's.

Thanks again and keep the tips and ideas coming.
You might also like to research into the Pure Audio Project speakers as I had mentioned before. They are highly configurable but difficult to audition as they are sold direct.
The Revels are superb speakers, highly underrated imo. People have their biases and generally Horn lovers don’t like cones.i would take horns only for their physicality of presentation and they need lots of space to strut their stuff. All speakers require set up and right room Acoustics regardless of design.
 

MPS

Member
Jun 20, 2016
31
3
8
Finland
#14
After more than 10 years with ML and totally ~25 years of dipole speakers I was facing the very issue, what next? (changes in private life necessitated move away from panel type dipole speakers) Wanted the clarity and cleanness of ESL and immediacy of sound. Ended up with Avantgarde Acoustic, the broad band type of midrange has some similarities to that of ESL, it would be very hard to accept a lesser performing speaker in the most critical frequency band. Added benefits are going from 200W/ch to a 30W/ch tube power amp and much increased dynamics of sound and last but maybe not least is the XD models included DSP for active woofer sections.
My 2c.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
9,613
365
83
London
#15
After more than 10 years with ML and totally ~25 years of dipole speakers I was facing the very issue, what next? (changes in private life necessitated move away from panel type dipole speakers) Wanted the clarity and cleanness of ESL and immediacy of sound. Ended up with Avantgarde Acoustic, the broad band type of midrange has some similarities to that of ESL, it would be very hard to accept a lesser performing speaker in the most critical frequency band. Added benefits are going from 200W/ch to a 30W/ch tube power amp and much increased dynamics of sound and last but maybe not least is the XD models included DSP for active woofer sections.
My 2c.
Which model of AG? Duos?
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
9,613
365
83
London
#17
Personally I didn't prefer duos (though not XDs) to my summits (and I don't prefer CLX to hybrids) but I loved the trios and they always had a space and budget issue. If you are space and budget constrained check out the devore orangutan O96 you could run it with 10ish watts
 

MPS

Member
Jun 20, 2016
31
3
8
Finland
#18
I think Uno XD is kind of right choice for me, I don't need the extra capacity of Duo XD but it's not that simple.. Duo XD has some more magical mid range tones (alnico?) and due to XD build in DSP the low end can be "fit in" even to relatively small space. Power amp is EAR 861 which is 32W/ch class-A valve on top of that it has 16 ohms output tabs which are perfect fit for AG 18 ohms nominal impedance.
Have no experience in orangutan O96 but I take your word for it maybe someday can get a chance to hear them.
 
Sep 8, 2010
31
1
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#19
Sleepy- I see you have the M/L Expression ESL 13a's. Can you share your thoughts on them? They are a big upgrade from the Montis"s ?
My progression with ML's went from Aerius i's to Summit's, and now the Expression 13a's. The latter have a slightly larger panel (572 sq in radiating area) vs. 497 sq in (for both Montis and Summit/X), so slightly wider "sweet spot" (but still narrower than dynamic speakers, if that's an issue). Main improvement, IMHO, is more seamless integration of woofers and panel, and more options (with ARC) to optimize bass, as needed, for your particular room geometry.

Obviously, moving from stats to dynamic speakers (Magico, Focal, etc.) would create an entirely different musical presentation, arguably more dynamic (at least with hard rock or full orchestra), but perhaps not quite as detailed or transparent as ML's. That's why I recommend listening to a variety of different speakers before deciding. Personally, I think the realism and accurate soundstage of stats (especially in the "sweet spot") outweigh any of their disadvantages, but YMMV.

As for cost, there are usually a few pairs of Expressions listed on A'gon if you want to go the used route. I don't think that's because of any inherent shortcoming, but rather folks buying them on impulse, without fully appreciating the pros/cons of stats.
 
Oct 1, 2014
55
12
8
#20
Obviously, moving from stats to dynamic speakers (Magico, Focal, etc.) would create an entirely different musical presentation, arguably more dynamic (at least with hard rock or full orchestra), but perhaps not quite as detailed or transparent as ML's.
Not arguably - there is no doubt quality cone speakers are more dynamic - it is exactly what I miss with ribbons. On the other hand I have yet to hear a cone speaker that replicates the human voice as ribbons do - the usual & often discussed tradeoff - now that is what excites me about the Gobels - the price is prohibitive but the potential is enormous - one speaker that has the attributes of both ribbons & cones. Another speaker with similar potential is Audionec - though my understanding is it is currently being revamped.
 

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