Things you really should have realised, audiophile sins to atone for

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Hi y'all, just a little light hearted thread. I tend to pontificate a bit about my journey, but since I've made some wrong assumptions, and taken some obvious things for granted, when I get it right despite previous left turns, I'm always particularly relieved.

22 years into the system building hobby, and I'm really really happy w what I'm achieving, despite making some serious errors along the way. The idea of this thread I guess is for others to discuss their dead ends and reverse directions, and how, if at all, they were addressed for the better.

My first big lesson was absolutely dismissing the critical nature of acoustics and the listening space itself. I used to live in what I now know to have been a truly awful acoustic, harsh and reflective, defeating any meaningful deep bass, imaging and micro dynamics. Because I had no comparison to an excellent acoustic, I tended to dismiss all comments of my compromised SQ. Indeed our resident commentator Ked was scathing, and things weren't much more positive from my dear friend Barry/Blue58 who never lost his frown while he endured music at my old place. Things were not helped when rooms I visited that were comprehensively treated always felt too dead and dry.

It took the move to my new place and $50k spent on a moderately treated dedicated space w hugely superior acoustics for me to readily admit my acceptance of previously poor SQ was bad form on my part.

Now, I'm obsessed w how much of a neutral open canvas improved acoustics provides, and every subsequent step I've made here, from balanced power/dedicated lines, to investment in fantastic cables, to speaker positioning etc, has proven to be markedly audible.

My second major admission is one I'm much more culpable on, and that is my poor previous attention to analog setup. I'd always winged it here a bit, and no wonder my digital came to sound better than my vinyl. It took a busted stylus, replacement install, and Audiophile Bill to coach me thru the finer points. Now, together w exemplary isolation, my analog is absolutely compelling, and I can't thank Bill enough for putting me right.

A couple of other areas I'll discuss later, but that's me for starters. Over to others, if they're prepared to confess.
 

cjfrbw

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Apr 20, 2010
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I'm a bit more zen. Rather than drag myself in sackcloth and ashes to the cathedral steps over what shoulda/coulda/woulda, I try to enjoy whatever ephemera I have at the moment.

Audio is like what the wags said about school: at least half of everything you hear and learn will be wrong, but you don't know which half, so you have to learn it all and spend the rest of your life figuring out the stuff that is and the stuff that isn't.

Commercialism, status groupie crap, fantasy, delusion, OC disorders, wishful thinking, misdirection, politics, etc. etc. are all swirled into one of the best and most rewarding artistic hobbies on the planet. Along with every conceivable Darwinian permutation and opinion, it is pretty impossible to ever discern what is 'right'.

I suppose that's why I stay on a calculated hamster wheel and keep trying things. It's like a computer game that never ends and keeps spinning new scenes, so that's entertainment. I've been fooled enough and died enough in the game to stay reasonably humble.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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not everyone is an all-in audiophile. but for those who are, it's like being a new first-time parent.

you did this thing, it's pretty cool, and you are smiling if clueless. with all the best intentions.
the kid grows, there are challenges, and you learn to cope as needs change. big wins, a few set-backs.
look how cute it is.
we go down a few dark roads, recover, re-commit to learning. not sure this was worth it. but of course, it is.
....the final push.....and....we evolved with our child and.....
it turns out great, the best thing you ever did. isn't life grand?
 
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NorthStar

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rob

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Jul 11, 2012
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Probably cop a beating for this but that's ok, it's my experience

Firstly, it you want music to sound realistic and exciting your speakers among other factors need to be capable of large scale dynamic swings without distortion/compression. Small or slimline speakers with little 150-200mm bass/mid drivers just cant do this.(physics).
Large drivers require large cabinets. I just don't buy the "speakers with narrow baffles image better." I believe that is mostly marketing speak and appeals more to WAF. For example have a listen to JBL M2, 4367 or any of the larger Tannoy's some of which are 1M wide.

No speaker is perfect, it's a matter of balancing compromises and choosing which short comings you are prepared to live with.

Also, IMO it's pretty much all speakers and room, if you have a poorly designed speaker with measurable(Gulp!) deficiencies, no amount swapping equipment, cables, tweaks is going to fix it. The idea of synergy in associated components will make very small differences.

I spent many years experimenting with various components including Direct drive, belt drive MM&MC carts, amps solid state, tube, OTL, SET. For example power amps form Nagra VPA, KR Kronzilla, Accuphase, Ear 890, Vacuum State DPA 300, Cary 805, Atmasphere, Musical Fidelity, McIntosh tube and transistor.Plus a range of pre amps, again tube and solid state. And came to the conclusion that while there are audible differences, unless there are obvious mismatches (like low power SET or OTL with power hungry designs with wild impedance swings) the differences will be relatively small.

Secondly, the software recording quality plays a huge part, be it analog or digital, crap in equals crap out. Also IMO there is no such thing as a good speaker/components for various musical styles, well engineered products will sound good with classical, jazz, metal, rock, electronica etc as long as its recorded, mastered and mixed well.

Lastly, an observation which will surely ruffle some feathers :) why own a speaker with high sensitivety and power handling, that is capable of playing music well within it's limits with dynamics and low distortion, then compromise said advantage by using a super low powered amplifier.

To me it makes no sense, when you want to enjoy music in your home at live levels, why have an amp that's working beyond it's limits(clipping) this pretty much negates all the advantages of the goal in the first place.

In summary,
1. room speaker interface
2. measure, treat acoustically if required.
3. High quality recording
4. Choose properly engineered components suitable for your speakers that you like the look of. :)
5. Get of the merry go round, sit back and enjoy, stop worrying about the latest greatest mk2,3,4 edition and spend that extra cash on the music you love or whatever else brings you happiness.

All in my opinion of course.
 
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the sound of Tao

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Jul 18, 2014
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Probably cop a beating for this but that's ok, it's my experience

Firstly, it you want music to sound realistic and exciting your speakers among other factors need to be capable of large scale dynamic swings without distortion/compression. Small or slimline speakers with little 150-200mm bass/mid drivers just cant do this.(physics).
Large drivers require large cabinets. I just don't buy the "speakers with narrow baffles image better." I believe that is mostly marketing speak and appeals more to WAF. For example have a listen to JBL M2, 4367 or any of the larger Tannoy's some of which are 1M wide.

No speaker is perfect, it's a matter of balancing compromises and choosing which short comings you are prepared to live with.

Also, IMO it's pretty much all speakers and room, if you have a poorly designed speaker with measurable(Gulp!) deficiencies, no amount swapping equipment, cables, tweaks is going to fix it. The idea of synergy in associated components will make very small differences.

I spent many years experimenting with various components including Direct drive, belt drive MM&MC carts, amps solid state, tube, OTL, SET. For example power amps form Nagra VPA, KR Kronzilla, Accuphase, Ear 890, Vacuum State DPA 300, Cary 805, Atmasphere, Musical Fidelity, McIntosh tube and transistor.Plus a range of pre amps, again tube and solid state. And came to the conclusion that while there are audible differences, unless there are obvious mismatches (like low power SET or OTL with power hungry designs with wild impedance swings) the differences will be relatively small.

Secondly, the software recording quality plays a huge part, be it analog or digital, crap in equals crap out. Also IMO there is no such thing as a good speaker/components for various musical styles, well engineered products will sound good with classical, jazz, metal, rock, electronica etc as long as its recorded, mastered and mixed well.

Lastly, an observation which will surely ruffle some feathers :) why own a speaker with high sensitivety and power handling, that is capable of playing music well within it's limits with dynamics and low distortion, then compromise said advantage by using a super low powered amplifier.

To me it makes no sense, when you want to enjoy music in your home at live levels, why have an amp that's working beyond it's limits(clipping) this pretty much negates all the advantages of the goal in the first place.

In summary,
1. room speaker interface
2. measure, treat acoustically if required.
3. High quality recording
4. Choose properly engineered components suitable for your speakers that you like the look of. :)
5. Get of the merry go round, sit back and enjoy, stop worrying about the latest greatest mk2,3,4 edition and spend that extra cash on the music you love or whatever else brings you happiness.

All in my opinion of course.
Some great thoughts Rob yes, I’m with you also on most of it though I’d humbly suggest great performance of great music trumps great recording every time and listening to absolutely great recordings of very ordinary performances or ordinary music is enjoyable like getting your testicles smashed by a hammer... with regards to why choose a low power amp with high sensitivity speakers I’d suggest some lower power amps do some things high power amps can only dream of and indeed vice versa so choose your favoured criteria and live with the constraints... OR better still if poss buy both :)
 
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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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My last two areas of getting the message late in the day. Better late than never.

First one is kinda predicated on my epiphany w room acoustics and optimised analog setup, and that's subs settings/integration.

I always defaulted in my old space to much too high and obtrusive a setting for subs. My old room was so harsh and toppy, w bass suckouts galore it appears, that ramping up subs output always seemed "appropriate". Of course resulting in an overly warm wooly and smeared sound, and an endless loop of frustration.

The vastly more neutral room here has allowed me to finally get to grips w tempering subs output, and my new tonearm being so linear, low noise and revealing, has allowed me to drop my subs output a long way. And the resultant clearer sound is a dramatic demonstration of how much I went down the wrong road before on this. Fascinatingly my digital that never seemed as badly hampered as my analog by overcooked subs, has benefitted greatly as well.

Amazingly a subs setting that was too low in my old space is absolutely right here, and deep bass seems way greater in impact because it's in much better balance w mids. Underpinning, not encroaching.

And the air, imaging and agility that has resulted has transformed my sound. A real lesson learnt.

My last resistance to change leading to unresolved regrets is one I'm currently working thru. And that is my strong resistance/bloody mindedness/irrationality re not going streaming. I can make more excuses than most not to make the effort and spend the cash on a streamer/dac, but I'm realising more and more that I'm arguing for argument's sake, and once I commit and get used to streaming, I will hit my head with a large brick wondering why I resisted so long.

So, there you have it. The room is king...get your analog sorted...don't indulge yr subs...and just commit already to streaming - these are the big epiphany moments for me (last one to yet come), areas that I let myself done over many years, and ones I've got on top of finally, and have succeeded at pushing my sound to a level way in excess of my old space. Room acoustics in particular, it can be the blank canvas that a totally satisfying sound is painted on.
 
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the sound of Tao

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Or perhaps the music is king... our systems and rooms are a facilitation of that experience.

Streaming = more music potential
System = more sonic potential
Combination of great music and great system = more than the sum of parts bliss
 
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spiritofmusic

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Graham, I'm properly getting the: better system = more sonic potential (in my case, better system not being swapping my tt for a Vyger, or my spkrs for Pnoes, but swapping bad room for exemplary room etc).

And I'm in the midst of getting: streaming = more music potential. This is fourth on my list of sins, and atoning for them.
 

the sound of Tao

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I figure you are enjoying your path Marc and that is all that matters in this truly super crazy expensive sport... there are no sins in audio, just wildly expensive detours. But I believe eventually it all comes back to music which is the thing that ultimately joins us all.

As long as you are loving the music then the prohibitive cost of hours and dollars becomes in some ways more bearable. I’ve now got a system that constantly keeps me enthralled listening to music and not the system at all so after many, many, many invested years and a crazy number of hours of system obsession and dollars I’ve finally got me some deliverance... cue the banjo music... am sure your system is also sounding truly fine. But a system is just that and for me now roon is just as important as room. It’s all important and all good but the connection to music maybe matters to me most of all. It is the alpha as well as the omega of this audio journey.
 
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spiritofmusic

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+1, Graham.
For me, I've learnt some interesting things that have taken me away from the 24/7 navel gazing I was prone to, and have been truly enlightening.

The room has been beyond miraculous for me. It's a true lottery win upgrade, and true learning experience. Analog reinstall has taught me not to ever take this for granted again. Subs settings was a Mobius Loop of frustration, now easy as pie. Streaming? Well, I can hear my inner arguments much more clearly.
 
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PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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Audio is like what the wags said about school: at least half of everything you hear and learn will be wrong, but you don't know which half, so you have to learn it all and spend the rest of your life figuring out the stuff that is and the stuff that isn't.

Looks like you figured out what is right for your turntable a long time ago. ;) That chapter seems closed.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Peter, are you putting that to Carl or me?
 

timztunz

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Apr 23, 2018
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Or perhaps the music is king... our systems and rooms are a facilitation of that experience.

Streaming = more music potential
System = more sonic potential
Combination of great music and great system = more than the sum of parts bliss
This should be framed.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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I didn't know he had a tt. My bad.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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Probably cop a beating for this but that's ok, it's my experience

Firstly, it you want music to sound realistic and exciting your speakers among other factors need to be capable of large scale dynamic swings without distortion/compression. Small or slimline speakers with little 150-200mm bass/mid drivers just cant do this.(physics).
Large drivers require large cabinets. I just don't buy the "speakers with narrow baffles image better." I believe that is mostly marketing speak and appeals more to WAF. For example have a listen to JBL M2, 4367 or any of the larger Tannoy's some of which are 1M wide.

No speaker is perfect, it's a matter of balancing compromises and choosing which short comings you are prepared to live with.

Also, IMO it's pretty much all speakers and room, if you have a poorly designed speaker with measurable(Gulp!) deficiencies, no amount swapping equipment, cables, tweaks is going to fix it. The idea of synergy in associated components will make very small differences.

I spent many years experimenting with various components including Direct drive, belt drive MM&MC carts, amps solid state, tube, OTL, SET. For example power amps form Nagra VPA, KR Kronzilla, Accuphase, Ear 890, Vacuum State DPA 300, Cary 805, Atmasphere, Musical Fidelity, McIntosh tube and transistor.Plus a range of pre amps, again tube and solid state. And came to the conclusion that while there are audible differences, unless there are obvious mismatches (like low power SET or OTL with power hungry designs with wild impedance swings) the differences will be relatively small.

Secondly, the software recording quality plays a huge part, be it analog or digital, crap in equals crap out. Also IMO there is no such thing as a good speaker/components for various musical styles, well engineered products will sound good with classical, jazz, metal, rock, electronica etc as long as its recorded, mastered and mixed well.

Lastly, an observation which will surely ruffle some feathers :) why own a speaker with high sensitivety and power handling, that is capable of playing music well within it's limits with dynamics and low distortion, then compromise said advantage by using a super low powered amplifier.

To me it makes no sense, when you want to enjoy music in your home at live levels, why have an amp that's working beyond it's limits(clipping) this pretty much negates all the advantages of the goal in the first place.

In summary,
1. room speaker interface
2. measure, treat acoustically if required.
3. High quality recording
4. Choose properly engineered components suitable for your speakers that you like the look of. :)
5. Get of the merry go round, sit back and enjoy, stop worrying about the latest greatest mk2,3,4 edition and spend that extra cash on the music you love or whatever else brings you happiness.

All in my opinion of course.

Thank you for posting about your experience. I agree with many of your points here.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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E. England
Ron, impossible to argue with any of these points. The uber high efficiency horns/flea watt tubes aficionados will disagree w pairing high power to 110dB+ horns.
 

sbnx

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Mar 28, 2017
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A few things for me along the journey.

First, "don't underestimate the POWER ... of the force". I had been doing the audiophile thing for several years and being an engineer I scoffed at the idea that adding some kind of power conditioning device (let alone a power cord) could make a difference to these massively overdesigned power supplies. Well, I was wrong. I remember inserting my first Equitech 2Q in the early 2000's and my jaw hitting the floor. Now I use all Shunyata and couldn't be more pleased.

Second is a two part thing. Don't underestimate the impact of a dedicated listening room and acoustic treatment. I remember going over to another audiophiles house. He had a dedicated room with a very modest system. In fact most people would look at what he had and think no way is that going to sound good. Well, his <<$10,000 system sounded better than my >>$50,000 system at the time. So I committed to building a dedicated room. Now for part two. Don't underestimate the time it will take to get the speakers setup and the system sounding great even in a dedicated room.

Third. The importance of a good reference. Live music is a great overall reference but how do you know what you are shooting for with two speakers and some gear without hearing what is possible. I wish I had a much better reference point when I was younger. I really needed an audiophile mentor (besides the dealer who was just trying to keep me on the merry-go-round of buying more gear).

Forth. Subwoofers can work great. I had my share of bad experiences with them. I swear most dealers don't have a clue or don't want to spend the time to really get them set up will. As such, I thought they were only for bass heads and why would anyone with full range speakers ever need them. But once you get them setup properly in your system they are a true game changer. I have tried multiple methods (single, stereo, Welti, Geddes). To me, with two channel audio I settled on a pair of stereo subs crossed over in the 40 Hz range. I use a steep crossover (LR 48 dB/Oct) and use a xilica to control gain, EQ, X-over etc. But without point number five I could never have made this really work.

Fifth. Being an engineer I have no idea why I waited so long to learn how to make acoustic measurements. I didn't start this until I moved into my dedicated room. The software (REW) is free and the cost of mic, cables, pre etc. is only about $250. What was I thinking?! Any changes I make (such as adding acoustic treatment or moving a speaker) easily show up as either positive or negative. (Generally only talking about in the bass region here). The ability to do this is what finally got me to be able to integrate subs. I wish I had leaned this much sooner.
 
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