(it's hard to let go of all our network "stuff")
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
As long as it's unshield twisted-pair (UTP) copper ethernet it doesn't matter. CAT6 has a bit better data transmission performance but at the speeds/data density we're using it's not an issue.
Steve Z
I am one of those Chord DAVE owners who also bypasses Chord's USB input with an SRC-DX. I also happened to help organize a little rally of Chord/SRC-DX users less than a week ago in asking Emile if he could re-investigate the creation of custom USB drivers for the SRC-DX. The SRC-DX is supplied with a driver from ComTrue and Taiko's first attempt at implementing a custom driver was not a success. So expectations were not high, either for Emile's ability to find the time to work on this project or for its ultimate success.
But we are dealing with Emile Bok here and so, somehow, he found the time to create four USB driver options, which he then made available to the community at large and personally installed in his usual record speed over the last two days.
I'm here to report on my early listening impressions. A few caveats are in order:
-I've only listened to two of the four USB drivers (#4 and #3) and I've only done so for parts of two days
-I'm attempting to compare them to the old ComTrue USB driver, but that is made somewhat difficult by the fact that, for practical reasons, Emile had to remove this driver from our Extremes, and so I must rely on my audio memory rather than quick A-B comparisons
-that audio memory is necessarily restricted to the previous four days of listening because that is how long I had Taiko's new OS upgrade before starting listening to the USB options
-like the vast majority of people here, the new OS upgrade made a huge transformative difference in my system, so my ears have been taking in a lot lately
Ok, with that out of the way, here are my thoughts on the USB4 option vs ComTrue:
-the most important factor for me is emotional engagement and while this was high with ComTrue, especially with the new OS update, I would say it is even higher with USB4 and it is true across all types of music
-my sense is that USB4 gives a more relaxed presentation; music seems to slow down just a bit (in a good way) and becomes easier to follow
-despite this perception of relaxation, the presence, intensity, richness, and color saturation that the OS update brought has not been diminished
-a slight edge on certain recordings appears to have been removed with USB4; the overall tone might be very slightly darker
-there seems to be greater clarity -- lyrics are more intelligible and instrumental separation is better
-bass quantity might be slightly diminished but bass articulation is there in spades; I'm not a basshead and the quantity issue does not bother me
In short, for me, USB4 is a winner over ComTrue. Emotional engagement has never been higher.
With regard to USB4 vs USB3, here are a few additional impressions:
-the one thing I am sure of is that USB4 engages me emotionally at a high level on a consistent basis and USB3 does not
-it is harder to pinpoint sonic differences, but I will try: USB4 has a quality of drawing you into the music with great delicacy, nuance, and refinement, as if there is a little more musically important information that is conveyed
-in comparison, USB3 feels like more of a forward presentation, sometimes with great forcefulness, but lacking the above qualities
I haven't tried USB1 or USB2, although some early reports by other DAVE/SRC-DX users suggest that these might not be serious contenders. Of course I will give them a listen and report back if I find that they truly are contenders.
I would love to hear from other DAVE/SRC-DX users about their experience with these new USB options from Taiko.
But we are dealing with Emile Bok here and so, somehow, he found the time to create four USB driver options, which he then made available to the community at large and personally installed in his usual record speed over the last two days.
I'm here to report on my early listening impressions. A few caveats are in order:
-I've only listened to two of the four USB drivers (#4 and #3) and I've only done so for parts of two days
-I'm attempting to compare them to the old ComTrue USB driver, but that is made somewhat difficult by the fact that, for practical reasons, Emile had to remove this driver from our Extremes, and so I must rely on my audio memory rather than quick A-B comparisons
-that audio memory is necessarily restricted to the previous four days of listening because that is how long I had Taiko's new OS upgrade before starting listening to the USB options
-like the vast majority of people here, the new OS upgrade made a huge transformative difference in my system, so my ears have been taking in a lot lately
Ok, with that out of the way, here are my thoughts on the USB4 option vs ComTrue:
-the most important factor for me is emotional engagement and while this was high with ComTrue, especially with the new OS update, I would say it is even higher with USB4 and it is true across all types of music
-my sense is that USB4 gives a more relaxed presentation; music seems to slow down just a bit (in a good way) and becomes easier to follow
-despite this perception of relaxation, the presence, intensity, richness, and color saturation that the OS update brought has not been diminished
-a slight edge on certain recordings appears to have been removed with USB4; the overall tone might be very slightly darker
-there seems to be greater clarity -- lyrics are more intelligible and instrumental separation is better
-bass quantity might be slightly diminished but bass articulation is there in spades; I'm not a basshead and the quantity issue does not bother me
In short, for me, USB4 is a winner over ComTrue. Emotional engagement has never been higher.
With regard to USB4 vs USB3, here are a few additional impressions:
-the one thing I am sure of is that USB4 engages me emotionally at a high level on a consistent basis and USB3 does not
-it is harder to pinpoint sonic differences, but I will try: USB4 has a quality of drawing you into the music with great delicacy, nuance, and refinement, as if there is a little more musically important information that is conveyed
-in comparison, USB3 feels like more of a forward presentation, sometimes with great forcefulness, but lacking the above qualities
I haven't tried USB1 or USB2, although some early reports by other DAVE/SRC-DX users suggest that these might not be serious contenders. Of course I will give them a listen and report back if I find that they truly are contenders.
I would love to hear from other DAVE/SRC-DX users about their experience with these new USB options from Taiko.
I've had very similar experiences as you with these new drivers and though we can't do a direct A-B I found #4 (I;m using Roon playback), to present a fuller positive improvement with less edge, bass is better defined without losing impact or speed, soundstage feels deeper and overall listening satisfaction very enjoyable, all this compared to SRCDX drivers but the issue here is as mentioned we've spent little time with the new OS before diving into the new (much appreciated Emile) Taiko drivers so defining the true upgrade just from the OS is skewed. My initial impression with the OS upgrade is it moved us closer to "no network" with less noise. I really could hear this improvement on orchestral music and all my listening comparisons was playing back via HQP 4.9 which has been my go to reference the last few months.
The combination of upgraded OS and Emile's drivers played back through Roon is a real winner..
Like many I'm anxious to also adjust my network cabling with suggested UTP cat 5 or 6 but will hold off another day to adjust to this new upgrade....Enjoy !
Nice report! I should have mentioned that all of my listening was done via Roon. Prior to the OS update, most of my serious listening was done with TAS and I used Roon mostly for music discovery. I have yet to listen to TAS since the update (But I will!). And while my network setup is very simple, with no audiophile switches, I do have two audiophile Ethernet cables in the signal path, so I’ll be doing some simple experiments replacing those cables with UTP cables.
Anas, I'm having trouble understanding why adding a basic switch in between your Router and Extreme would transform the sound of your system.
To summarize your report:
-- after the Update, your setup of Router - M12 Switch - Extreme sounded worse than no switch at all.
-- but the direct router to Extreme sounds closed and unsatisfying.
-- then after adding a basic DLink switch, the sound dramatically opened up and became far more engaging.
Does anyone have a possible explanation for this?
I read it as a combination of a few things:
The os update has drastically reduced the noise floor and so tweaked audiophile switches that may have been doing things to paper over the cracks (noise modulation, speed throttling up to 90%) now show themselves to be adding colour in a negative way. Hence removing the m12 made a difference.
On the other hand his router wasn’t doing address segmentation so adding a non audiophile switch to do just that without any audiophile add ons was a benefit.
IMO this also just goes to show how much all of this is specific to the extreme; I’m pretty sure the M12 still benefits basically every other server out there.
The os update has drastically reduced the noise floor and so tweaked audiophile switches that may have been doing things to paper over the cracks (noise modulation, speed throttling up to 90%) now show themselves to be adding colour in a negative way. Hence removing the m12 made a difference.
On the other hand his router wasn’t doing address segmentation so adding a non audiophile switch to do just that without any audiophile add ons was a benefit.
IMO this also just goes to show how much all of this is specific to the extreme; I’m pretty sure the M12 still benefits basically every other server out there.
Thanks! Great explanation. So, some routers don’t provide address segmentation? And if so, you need a switch for that purpose.
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Just to be clear, I don't have a Taiko. I would like one.
This thread has become confounding. A server that now functions optimum with switches that have noisy power supplies, inferior voltage stability, leaky chip and ground noise, inferior crystals with higher jitter. Sort of everything Emile has been improving upon in his server. It does not make sense. I'm not saying its not true. I have always felt any cord has a color. Just ask Peter and David with their flags in the ground for Ching Cheng. I personally use unshielded Blue Jeans ethernet. I have tried some Audioquest ethernet and hear the smoothing.
I was at Mikes and heard where digital can go. I wonder if Emile isn't tipping that point where digital becomes an OMG. And at the same time he's removed the edginess that can come with that very "live" system sound. I have heard that too.
That means the cables and PS plus switches we use to cover that "edge" are now perceived as a mask.
I feel this is very new territory and that consumer grade switches are going to fail the test of time. That well built products that clean up their performance without adding color are out there. But they are not necessarily extremely expensive name brand products. Is any Taiko owner using an Uptone EtherREGEN? Ed??? I have always viewed that as well built, yet not an over the top product. How does an EtherREGEN compare to a stock DLink or Netgear. My gut says it will be better. I'm very curious if I am proved wrong.
This thread has become confounding. A server that now functions optimum with switches that have noisy power supplies, inferior voltage stability, leaky chip and ground noise, inferior crystals with higher jitter. Sort of everything Emile has been improving upon in his server. It does not make sense. I'm not saying its not true. I have always felt any cord has a color. Just ask Peter and David with their flags in the ground for Ching Cheng. I personally use unshielded Blue Jeans ethernet. I have tried some Audioquest ethernet and hear the smoothing.
I was at Mikes and heard where digital can go. I wonder if Emile isn't tipping that point where digital becomes an OMG. And at the same time he's removed the edginess that can come with that very "live" system sound. I have heard that too.
That means the cables and PS plus switches we use to cover that "edge" are now perceived as a mask.
I feel this is very new territory and that consumer grade switches are going to fail the test of time. That well built products that clean up their performance without adding color are out there. But they are not necessarily extremely expensive name brand products. Is any Taiko owner using an Uptone EtherREGEN? Ed??? I have always viewed that as well built, yet not an over the top product. How does an EtherREGEN compare to a stock DLink or Netgear. My gut says it will be better. I'm very curious if I am proved wrong.
Hi Taiko team , we are several months since this last post … was wondering whether we are any closer to get TAS for my EVO. Frankly I am a bit miffed that a loyal and early adopter and customer like me is not able to enjoy the great work the team is doing. Knowing the passion that Emile has for customer service and excellence I am sure a solution would be found for me and the other EVO owners. Look forward to some good news in the near future. Thanks Pinu
Great news and what a compelling feedback! Thank you @alwayslearning to raise up this, and above all, I am very grateful to Emile and team who found the way to include the DAVE, via SRC-DX, among the DACs which can fully leverage on the latest technology from Taiko.
It seems that my Extreme will be arriving just at the right time after all
Curious about this as well, and of course will try by myself and report here when I have the chance. Sure I would gladly remove the ER + LPS + audiophile cable from my system, especially if a simpler, tidier chain would result in a better sound ... it would be another winner with the Extreme (although I suspect this would only be a preparatory step in view of the upcoming "not really a switch" Taiko product
).
Hi Pinu,
Unfortunately this is just not compatible with the Sound Galleries 2015/EVO models and we won't be able to make it work. This range of servers was developed for Sound Galleries Monaco with a specific task in mind, using Roon as a frontend and HQplayer as a backend in order to up sample to high DSD rates. This is a very different design objective then our own brand Extreme server. We can offer you a 100% refund of your EVO purchasing price should you wish to upgrade to the Extreme platform.
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@Kingrex There's better for sure. I have not been able to test the ER as mine died, from past experience the "isolated" 100Mbit port was to be avoided with the Extreme but the 1Gb ports performed well.
@alwayslearning and @M27HF thank you for sharing your experiences. Sounds like it's worthwhile to deploy to more SRC-DX users.
@alwayslearning and @M27HF thank you for sharing your experiences. Sounds like it's worthwhile to deploy to more SRC-DX users.
I’m a non-Extreme user, but love to follow this thread with all the wonderful developments and discoveries. I’m a major Taiko fan…just that I’m travelling an alternate road that Im not yet entirely ready to abandon.
For the past 3.5 years I have been developing a digitally-based system for local and remote streaming.
I discovered fairly early on that reducing RFI and EMI, jitter and phase noise, internal and external vibration that excites resonances and power supply noise and impedance along the entire network really has a major impact on sound quality. I also discovered that to gain maximum SQ benefits, the network components need to have the correct specs based on their position within the chain. The specs should always go from good to better as you progress down the chain. I also learned that components meant to enhance the stream, don’t always work as intended, depending on the environment they‘re in and the quality of the stream they’re treating. I have had several instances where extremely well reviewed components haven’t improved but rather downgraded sound quality. This was true in my case when treating the USB output of my server and with certain modules like ‘switches’ and cables on the input. In my system, I am aiming to deliver the very cleanest and most precise data stream to the server. In my experience, the more you reduce the above listed interferences, the better the stream and resulting SQ gets, but it’s important no to introduce anything that affects (as in reduces) transparency and neutrality. The other major element I have found to impact sound quality is network traffic. The greater the network activity and the busier the network is with superfluous activity (non-audio related), the worse the sound becomes. I have also found that a network requires a well thought through and designed screening strategy that excludes bi-directional radiation and provides zero continuity to carry pesky correlated and non-correlated currents. I use a common star arrangement to a low impedance ground for all cable screens including network.
Finally, the more I have optimized my system in terms of the above interference parameters, the better the sound quality has become, which implies that it produces cleaner, more precise sound waves to interact with my hearing and brain to produce a more precise, pure, dramatic, realistic, natural, emotional, message-laden conscious picture of music being performed by instruments and musicians in real spaces that sonically don‘t resemble my room. The better my system has become, the greater the impact of removing yet more of the interferences i.e the bigger and more impactful the improvements and the more profound disturbances like running-in or warming up after complete cool down have become.
One of my early discoveries was that power supplies used on the network are really responsible for a lot of the characteristics and presentation of the resulting music. Characteristics like purity, detail, pace, rhythm and timing, space, air, emotional involvement will all change for the better when power supplies are improved. My network uses some pretty cheap components….the modem, the router and the wi-fi-ethernet bridge are all consumer grade network products costing a couple of hundred pounds at most. The DC cables I use to deliver DC to these components sometimes cost 4-5x the price of the component itself and the power supply may be 20 times the price and in every case, I would rate the investment as being entirely worthwhile and perfectly in line with or even superior to the price/performance ratio of other hi-fi related upgrades. Running a $100 component with a $3000+ LPS seems to be entirely logical given the degree to which the LPS contributes to the final sound.
So in summary, as the Extreme gets better and better, as SW and interfaces improve, as noise floors are reduced, certain components in your network stream may very well begin to contribute or exert a negative influence. I would just say that such an experience is a result of the component itself or its power supply and should not be generalised into an engineering principal. I don‘t believe and find it counter-intuitive that delivering a cleaner, lower noise, more precise stream will ever sound inferior to a noisier, less precise version….however HOW you clean and resynthesize your stream becomes ever more important as the noise reaching the final detector (your ears) is reduced and your detectors are able to hear deeper into and resolve more of the character of the music. The message I believe is that you need to become more discerning in how your network is structured and the stream refined.
For the past 3.5 years I have been developing a digitally-based system for local and remote streaming.
I discovered fairly early on that reducing RFI and EMI, jitter and phase noise, internal and external vibration that excites resonances and power supply noise and impedance along the entire network really has a major impact on sound quality. I also discovered that to gain maximum SQ benefits, the network components need to have the correct specs based on their position within the chain. The specs should always go from good to better as you progress down the chain. I also learned that components meant to enhance the stream, don’t always work as intended, depending on the environment they‘re in and the quality of the stream they’re treating. I have had several instances where extremely well reviewed components haven’t improved but rather downgraded sound quality. This was true in my case when treating the USB output of my server and with certain modules like ‘switches’ and cables on the input. In my system, I am aiming to deliver the very cleanest and most precise data stream to the server. In my experience, the more you reduce the above listed interferences, the better the stream and resulting SQ gets, but it’s important no to introduce anything that affects (as in reduces) transparency and neutrality. The other major element I have found to impact sound quality is network traffic. The greater the network activity and the busier the network is with superfluous activity (non-audio related), the worse the sound becomes. I have also found that a network requires a well thought through and designed screening strategy that excludes bi-directional radiation and provides zero continuity to carry pesky correlated and non-correlated currents. I use a common star arrangement to a low impedance ground for all cable screens including network.
Finally, the more I have optimized my system in terms of the above interference parameters, the better the sound quality has become, which implies that it produces cleaner, more precise sound waves to interact with my hearing and brain to produce a more precise, pure, dramatic, realistic, natural, emotional, message-laden conscious picture of music being performed by instruments and musicians in real spaces that sonically don‘t resemble my room. The better my system has become, the greater the impact of removing yet more of the interferences i.e the bigger and more impactful the improvements and the more profound disturbances like running-in or warming up after complete cool down have become.
One of my early discoveries was that power supplies used on the network are really responsible for a lot of the characteristics and presentation of the resulting music. Characteristics like purity, detail, pace, rhythm and timing, space, air, emotional involvement will all change for the better when power supplies are improved. My network uses some pretty cheap components….the modem, the router and the wi-fi-ethernet bridge are all consumer grade network products costing a couple of hundred pounds at most. The DC cables I use to deliver DC to these components sometimes cost 4-5x the price of the component itself and the power supply may be 20 times the price and in every case, I would rate the investment as being entirely worthwhile and perfectly in line with or even superior to the price/performance ratio of other hi-fi related upgrades. Running a $100 component with a $3000+ LPS seems to be entirely logical given the degree to which the LPS contributes to the final sound.
So in summary, as the Extreme gets better and better, as SW and interfaces improve, as noise floors are reduced, certain components in your network stream may very well begin to contribute or exert a negative influence. I would just say that such an experience is a result of the component itself or its power supply and should not be generalised into an engineering principal. I don‘t believe and find it counter-intuitive that delivering a cleaner, lower noise, more precise stream will ever sound inferior to a noisier, less precise version….however HOW you clean and resynthesize your stream becomes ever more important as the noise reaching the final detector (your ears) is reduced and your detectors are able to hear deeper into and resolve more of the character of the music. The message I believe is that you need to become more discerning in how your network is structured and the stream refined.
You have always been VERY helpful regarding your networking work especially over in the networking thread.
I AGREEE 1000% about the LPS's for switches having a dramatic effect on the SQ. Without looking back at who posted when they removed the M12 switch or re-inserted it, I would venture that they did not have the JCAT LPS connected with the M12 switch.
As I noted a few pages back I removed my M12's, but I use the JCAT LPSs with these switches. Two M12s/two LPSs. When I first used the M12 I thought it made a slight positive difference. When I added the LPS to the M12 it made a dramatic difference.
So, when the noted M12 user added the M12 recently and didn't like it, again, my guess is he did not have the M12 LPS connected as well.
I keep saying this but every system is different. Every users' room is different. Everyone's ears and sonic priorities are different.
I listen with a few astute/experienced listeners and we listen to the exact same thing at the exact same time and have totally different impressions and conclusions regarding what we are hearing.
Point being, be careful what you read from one poster and his ears/room/system regarding his conclusions most likely they don't pertain to what you are experiencing in your environment. Know what you hear and what you like, it's all that matters.
Sure I understand there are generalities, like the recent OS upgrade or the Taiko usb card/drivers etc, but the networking stuff imho can be tilted one way or another depending on a user's overall environment and full equation.
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yes, i'm using it for about 2 years and still give me best music everyday.
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