Subwoofers Compared

sbnx

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Mar 28, 2017
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Hello, I was looking to purchase a couple of subwoofers and started doing some research. One interesting thing is that there are a lot of small companies that are making really great subwoofers. But a straight-up google search won't reveal many of these. Most of them I stumbled on while digging through forum posts titled something like "which sub is better?". I thought I would make a post with the info on the various ones I came across with a budget of about $4k or less per sub. Of course magico has some subs and Wilson but these are $15K or more each.

Since I am more interested in music and will have multiple subs the max output wasn't my primary concern. All of the subs listed are sealed designs. I was looking for low distortion numbers and low group delay etc. So here is the info for some future subwoofer surfer. By poor availability I mean you will typically have to wait 2-4 months for your subwoofer. All of these measure well and would likely serve the purpose. Some of them you can try and send back if you are not happy. Some look better than others (beauty is in the eye of the beholder). Some appear easier to setup and use and have more features. It is all up to you. I am sure that there are a couple more companies out there that I did not run across. If so maybe someone can add to the thread below.

These are not listed in any particular order:

Hsu – ULS-15 mk2 – 15” driver – MDF cabinet -- $779 – No parametric EQ -- immediate availability

DSS – 18S – 18” driver – Baltic Birch cabinet -- $2400 -- No parametric EQ -- Availability poor (Note that this company makes a 24" sub that measures well and would blow up your house)

JTR – Captivator S1 – 18” driver -- Baltic Birch cabinet -- $2199 -- No parametric EQ -- immediate availability

Rythmic – F18 – 18” driver – MDF cabinet -- $1530 (shipping inc.) – 1 band of parametric EQ built into plate amp -- immediate availability -- This unit is servo controlled and posts excellent distortion numbers.

Funk – 18.0 – 18” driver – Baltic Birch cabinet -- $3750 -- Onboard DSP with 5 bands of parametric EQ and crossover -- availability poor -- Awesome veneer work -- no manual to assist with setup

JL Audio – Fathom F112 v2 – 12” driver – MDF cabinet -- $3700 -- 18 bands of parametric EQ -- immediate availability -- Push button setup (You have to trust it will do what you want. you can't control the EQ settings)

Seaton – F18+submersive -- 18” driver – Baltic Birch -- $2195 -- 2 to 4 week availability (He recently has improved website and ordering)

SVS – SB16U – 16” driver – MDF cabinet– $1999 -- 3 bands of parametric EQ -- immediate availability -- Most user friendly (You can adjust everything (Gain, Phase, EQ etc.) using a phone app from your listening seat.
 
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microstrip

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Hello, I was looking to purchase a couple of subwoofers and started doing some research. One interesting thing is that there are a lot of small companies that are making really great subwoofers. But a straight-up google search won't reveal many of these. Most of them I stumbled on while digging through forum posts titled something like "which sub is better?". I thought I would make a post with the info on the various ones I came across with a budget of about $4k or less per sub. Of course magico has some subs and Wilson but these are $15K or more each.

Since I am more interested in music and will have multiple subs the max output wasn't my primary concern. All of the subs listed are sealed designs. I was looking for low distortion numbers and low group delay etc. So here is the info for some future subwoofer surfer. By poor availability I mean you will typically have to wait 2-4 months for your subwoofer. All of these measure well and would likely serve the purpose. Some of them you can try and send back if you are not happy. Some look better than others (beauty is in the eye of the beholder). Some appear easier to setup and use and have more features. It is all up to you. I am sure that there are a couple more companies out there that I did not run across. If so maybe someone can add to the thread below.

These are not listed in any particular order:

Hsu – ULS-15 mk2 – 15” driver – MDF cabinet -- $779 – No parametric EQ -- immediate availability

DSS – 18S – 18” driver – Baltic Birch cabinet -- $2400 -- No parametric EQ -- Availability poor (Note that this company makes a 24" sub that measures well and would blow up your house)

JTR – Captivator S1 – 18” driver -- Baltic Birch cabinet -- $2199 -- No parametric EQ -- immediate availability

Rythmic – F18 – 18” driver – MDF cabinet -- $1530 (shipping inc.) – 1 band of parametric EQ built into plate amp -- immediate availability -- This unit is servo controlled and posts excellent distortion numbers.

Funk – 18.0 – 18” driver – Baltic Birch cabinet -- $3750 -- Onboard DSP with 5 bands of parametric EQ and crossover -- availability poor -- Awesome veneer work -- no manual to assist with setup

JL Audio – Fathom F112 v2 – 12” driver – MDF cabinet -- $3700 -- 3 bands of parametric EQ -- immediate availability -- Push button setup (You have to trust it will do what you want. you can't control the EQ settings)

Seaton – F18+submersive -- 18” driver – Baltic Birch -- $2195 -- Availability poor

SVS – SB16U – 16” driver – MDF cabinet– $1999 -- 3 bands of parametric EQ -- immediate availability -- Most user friendly (You can adjust everything (Gain, Phase, EQ etc.) using a phone app from your listening seat.

IMHO you are not including an important item in your list of features - easiness of setup and probability of success. :) I have tried several subs and equalizers with REW set-up and measurements, but for me the auto setup of recent JLAudio is a winner. If you want to add top integration also add the CR-1 crossover.

Please note that I have no experience with the alternatives you are referring - just MHO on what I tried.
 
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Al M.

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Rodney Gold

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Ive had many subs in my time , JL, REL, Velodyne , B&W , KrK , SVS, homemade etc
The best value for money were my SVS's (12, 13ultra,16 ultra)

I did a 4 sub swarm with the 13 ultras and dual subs with the 16..My primary reason for running the multisubs was to smooth room response , not so much for extra bass

HOWEVER , setting up 4 subs using the subs controls is a nightmare (albeit the app makes it easier for the SVS's) and eventually I used a 4x10 minidsp so in essence I bypassed the subs own internal controls...

On a 4 sub setup I would use a 4 channel Trinnov processor which is better than any internal dsp and much better than the miniDSP

The dual SB16 ultra setup was awesome. (used with Vivid audio Giya G1's running full range) and if I had to do it again , these subs are what I would use.

I got shot of the subs when I upgraded to G1 spirits as they have more and better bass than anyone can possibly need in my 8x6m room
 

sbnx

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Wow. more interest than I would have thought on this topic. Here are some additional thoughts.

I also have Giya G1's in a room that is 27.5' X 21.5' (8.4m X 6.5m). Interesting that this is very close to your system Rodney. I am not looking for more bass either I am trying to smooth the bass response. The "lumpiness" in the bass has nothing to do with the speakers but is an acoustic phenomena related to wave cancelation from the side and back walls. My room is "lossy" so I don't have large peaks that are decaying in time. So the bass I have is tight and controlled. The bigger problem is the valley I have between 25-38 Hz and a valley from 55 - 70 Hz.

I have read multiple papers and read a ton of forum posts on different sub setup. No doubt that multiple subs is the way to go. I bought two Funk 18.0's and a JL CR-1 about a year ago and setup the Welti type system with one front and one back (centered). This worked really well and gave a very flat response from 20-100 Hz. I don't really like the visual of a large sub between the mains. At this point I want to try the Geddes approach to see what kind of response I get with that so I am going to get two additional subs and run all four parallel with the mains.

Rodney mentioned subwoofer swarm. Interestingly I live about 15 minutes from Audio Kinesis. I called Duke and spoke with him some on the subject. Really nice and helpful person. I like his out of the box thinking. Unfortunately he did not have a swam setup available to listen to or purchase. I should have listed his swarm system in my list above.

As Rodney also mentioned going from sub to sub to change settings is definitely a pain. I can see why one would choose SVS as you can adjust everything from your phone at the listening position. So the subs listed above that don't have built in EQ is not a big deal if you are going to use a Trinnov or MiniDSP or Behringer 2496. I am going to try one of these.

I see we have a vote for JL audio and Funk. More votes for some of the others would probably show up. No product is perfect as there are always tradeoffs. I am sure JL is fine but they seem pretty pricey for a 12" driver in an MDF box. I don't like the fact that they give you EQ but you have to accept what they give you as the answer (no flexibility). Funk makes a great sub (as I own two of the 18.0's) with lots of flexibility and nice veneer. However, you have to wait 3-4 months go get your sub. There is no manual on how to make adjustments in the DSP (although Nathan does provide some e-mail support). And they are a royal pain to adjust anything as you have to connect your laptop via USB.

As always YMMV.
 

Al M.

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I am sure JL is fine but they seem pretty pricey for a 12" driver in an MDF box. I don't like the fact that they give you EQ but you have to accept what they give you as the answer (no flexibility).

Great bass is not just about tightness and timing, but about resolution as well, and that resolution extends with the JL Audio also into the mid-bass, which is beneficial in combination with my monitors. The sub integration with my JL Audio Fathom 112v2 subs is even better than with my previous REL Storm III sub (about half the price of the JL Audio, but 18 years ago) since, for example, the contribution of the sub is inaudible to my ears with solo cello -- in hindsight it was not as seamless with the REL, even though at the time I thought there was no problem. The JL Audio is just much faster, so that its contribution to the texture doesn't draw any attention to itself. The entire complex sound texture of the cello, as portrayed by the combination of monitor/sub, is one single time-coherent and very detailed entity from top to bottom (the monitors on their own are quite good on cello, but the sub adds this extra realism at the bottom).

This speed goes far beyond just tightness, control and timing in the deep bass (e.g. on rock music) which I thought had been excellent with the REL, until I realized that also here the JL Audio is just plain superior. Also the double bass section of the orchestra is now portrayed quite convincingly with my monitor/JL Audio sub combo -- the REL simply couldn't do that, it wasn't fast enough to properly capture its part of the complex texture in support of the monitors. The sound of the bowed, often more sustained notes seemed more of a smear with the REL, even though on plucked solo stand-up bass it was rather good.

The JL Audio Fathom 112v2 is quite cheap in my opinion for the sound quality that it delivers. It's not just a 12" driver in an MDF box, it's a super-fast 12" driver in an MDF box that is responsive to the subtlest of signals. A high-resolution sub for high-resolution speakers.

As for flexibility, it's all there. The digital automated room optimization (DARO) only measures the frequency response at the listening position with an included microphone and corrects for peaks and valleys to give you a more linear response (it really works). You can set volume, crossover frequency, crossover slope, phase angle, low frequency trim (useful in small to medium-sized rooms) all to your heart's content.
 
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Brucemck2

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Two huge thumbs up for SVS subs. I've had several over the years. They perform terrifically, particularly the newer sealed versions. And, the after sales support is top notch.

The Seatons too are very, very, nice.
 

Rodney Gold

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I was really wanting the audiokenesis swarm , but the cost of getting it to South africa was prohibitive .. almost as much as the system itself. Duke is a fantastic guy and gave me a ton of info .. I would at least audition his offering as its not dreadfully expensive
My room is not lossy , its totally sealed thus standing waves are an issue .. no place for bass to "escape" and room dimensions means I have some serious issues at very low frequencies
Here is a measurement of my room with before and after as per the trinnov . with my g1 spirits and you can see the massive problem I have at 20 odd hz and multiples .. no bass trapping can fix this , it has to be a DSP solution..it seems as tho the lf node and the speakers port resonance and their ability to go real low with massive power coincide to make this hump worse on the spirits , wasnt so bad with the G1's...
BTW had I had a trinnov at the time , I might NOT have upgraded to the spirits...

As to the measurements and correction .. I apply a target curve to the |flat| output as tuning the system (including the multisub setup) to flat is not great sounding.
I apply a lift from 150 hz or so b, running to +4db at 20hz (and if doing full correction .. a slightly drooping treble ) as per the pic

I would heartily recommend a Trinnov st2 hifi or their amethyst for integrating bass and for the whole system correction... BUT they arent cheap .. would cost the same as 4x SB16 ultras...



 

Mark Seaton

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May 21, 2010
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Hello, I was looking to purchase a couple of subwoofers and started doing some research. One interesting thing is that there are a lot of small companies that are making really great subwoofers. But a straight-up google search won't reveal many of these. Most of them I stumbled on while digging through forum posts titled something like "which sub is better?". I thought I would make a post with the info on the various ones I came across with a budget of about $4k or less per sub. Of course magico has some subs and Wilson but these are $15K or more each.

Since I am more interested in music and will have multiple subs the max output wasn't my primary concern. All of the subs listed are sealed designs. I was looking for low distortion numbers and low group delay etc. So here is the info for some future subwoofer surfer. By poor availability I mean you will typically have to wait 2-4 months for your subwoofer. All of these measure well and would likely serve the purpose. Some of them you can try and send back if you are not happy. Some look better than others (beauty is in the eye of the beholder). Some appear easier to setup and use and have more features. It is all up to you. I am sure that there are a couple more companies out there that I did not run across. If so maybe someone can add to the thread below.

These are not listed in any particular order:

Seaton – F18+submersive -- 18” driver – Baltic Birch -- $2195 -- Availability poor

Hi sbnx,

Thank you for including our F18 subwoofer in your list of many capable subwoofers. I suspect your availability information was from some months ago and closer to when you purchased your Funk subwoofer. Since about the first of this year, we have been able to finally keep the F18 in stock or within a 3 week lead time. We had units in stock prior to Axpona and are momentarily back to a 2-3 week lead for F18+ units (with slave units in stock). At long last we finally have information and ordering available on our website for our subwoofers, and the speakers will be visible by the weekend. Among the subwoofers already live is a newer model, the compact JS-12, which should be of interest for those looking for a more compact package, especially where multiple units are planned. The JS-12 has the same extended frequency response of our F18 & SubMersive which couple into most rooms delivering 8-12Hz in-room response.

What isn't yet posted is another 12" subwoofer using the similar enclosure to the JS-12, but instead using our ultra-low distortion, custom woofer from Acoustic Elegance we developed for and use in our Catalyst 12C loudspeaker. It has a little less maximum output, but will add the ability to drive 1 additional slave unit with the same very extended frequency response. Some have heard the bass produced by our Catalyst 12C speakers run in their full range DSP mode, and that is precisely what prompted the development of this subwoofer option.

While I agree that external electronics like the Trinnov, DSpeaker, MiniDsp, DEQX, etc all offer more flexibility and centralized control than we can offer in a subwoofer plate amplifier, in all of our subwoofers I have included precise crossover/low pass control with settings as low as 30Hz, and an "LF EQ" knob which provides a useful tilt/shelving of the lowest frequencies to best fit the preferred balance each user prefers in their room.
 

sbnx

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Mar 28, 2017
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Rodney, Thanks for the extended discussion. I want to applaud your courage in posting an actual measurement of your system. Many people seem to be hesitant to do this. Perhaps because they fear ridicule. All rooms look lumpy in the sub 100 Hz region if you only have a stereo pair of speakers. (unless you make your room anechoic). I pasted my room measurement below. Amazing how physics works -- my room has very similar dimensions as yours and the sub 100 Hz response looks very similar. I have the same trouble with multiples of 20Hz. 60 Hz can be particularly problematic as there is a pile-up of longitudinal, tangential and oblique modes from 57 - 63 Hz. My speakers are currently positioned close to anti node locations to ameliorate this problem.

Do you use the Trinnov to manage just the subs or to manage your whole systems (G1 Spirits too)? I am looking for something to take the XLR outputs from my preamp that will manage just the subs. I was thinking the Behringer 2496 for this. It is cheap ($300) so if it doesn't work then no biggie. Is there a better option?

Thanks,
Todd

Room_Response.JPG
 

Brucemck2

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Rodney, Thanks for the extended discussion. I want to applaud your courage in posting an actual measurement of your system. Many people seem to be hesitant to do this. Perhaps because they fear ridicule. All rooms look lumpy in the sub 100 Hz region if you only have a stereo pair of speakers. (unless you make your room anechoic). I pasted my room measurement below. Amazing how physics works -- my room has very similar dimensions as yours and the sub 100 Hz response looks very similar. I have the same trouble with multiples of 20Hz. 60 Hz can be particularly problematic as there is a pile-up of longitudinal, tangential and oblique modes from 57 - 63 Hz. My speakers are currently positioned close to anti node locations to ameliorate this problem.

Do you use the Trinnov to manage just the subs or to manage your whole systems (G1 Spirits too)? I am looking for something to take the XLR outputs from my preamp that will manage just the subs. I was thinking the Behringer 2496 for this. It is cheap ($300) so if it doesn't work then no biggie. Is there a better option?

Thanks,
Todd

View attachment 40524

I had loud pops and clicks with Behringer. QSC worked well with low latency. Xilica also a great option.

https://store.acousticfrontiers.com/products/xilica-xp-series-dsp-processors-xp-2040-xp-4080
 

Brucemck2

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May 10, 2010
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I was really wanting the audiokenesis swarm , but the cost of getting it to South africa was prohibitive .. almost as much as the system itself. Duke is a fantastic guy and gave me a ton of info .. I would at least audition his offering as its not dreadfully expensive
My room is not lossy , its totally sealed thus standing waves are an issue .. no place for bass to "escape" and room dimensions means I have some serious issues at very low frequencies
Here is a measurement of my room with before and after as per the trinnov . with my g1 spirits and you can see the massive problem I have at 20 odd hz and multiples .. no bass trapping can fix this , it has to be a DSP solution..it seems as tho the lf node and the speakers port resonance and their ability to go real low with massive power coincide to make this hump worse on the spirits , wasnt so bad with the G1's...
BTW had I had a trinnov at the time , I might NOT have upgraded to the spirits...

As to the measurements and correction .. I apply a target curve to the |flat| output as tuning the system (including the multisub setup) to flat is not great sounding.
I apply a lift from 150 hz or so b, running to +4db at 20hz (and if doing full correction .. a slightly drooping treble ) as per the pic

I would heartily recommend a Trinnov st2 hifi or their amethyst for integrating bass and for the whole system correction... BUT they arent cheap .. would cost the same as 4x SB16 ultras...




I also use Trinnov. The actual response is highly unlikely to be that good down low; you’ll need to measure and adjust post-Trinnov below 100hz.
 

Rodney Gold

Member
Jan 29, 2014
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Sbnx
If you want to control the subs only and leave the g1's unmolested a minidsp 4x10 will do. Its $500
I use the trinnov to control my whole system in the digital domain , im only using 2 of the 4 chans (no subs) digital out of trinnov to my amps...I have tried it as a pre/dac with an external power amp as well
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-balanced-2x4
https://www.trinnov.com/st2-hifi/
Trinnov is in a different league in flexibility and SQ but is also 20x more expensive at $10k
 

sbnx

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Mar 28, 2017
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Mark, Thanks for chiming in. I am glad you clarified some of the details on your subs for some future person who is trying to figure out all of this stuff. I was not trying to misrepresent anyone. It's good you have been able to build an inventory of subs. I edited my original list to show 2-4 weeks delivery.

On a side note I see that my user id is a little ridiculous. Maybe I can have one of the moderators change it.

Thanks,
Todd
 

audioguy

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Sbnx
If you want to control the subs only and leave the g1's unmolested a minidsp 4x10 will do. Its $500

I use THIS miniDSP. It is about $350 and works with XLR outputs and inputs. It is basically a 2x2 -- Analog in and Analog out. REALLY easy to use and setup and the results are excellent. If you have more subs which are not all placed equidistant from the MLP, there are other miniDSP models to choose from.

If you want digital in and out, there is THIS one
 

sbnx

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Mar 28, 2017
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Guys, Thanks for the help on subwoofer control systems. I had not heard of the xilica system which looks interesting. And the endorsements for mini DSP are great giving me something to consider.

Maybe i should open a thread comparing the various systems available to control multi subs. :)

Todd
 

Bruce B

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Apr 25, 2010
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I believe the JL Audio sub has an 18-band EQ. At least the v.2 does.

There is a great review in the new TAS of the f113 v.2 and the CR-1. Love my pair of f112 v.2 and CR-1 subs. Wouldn't trade them for anything!
 

sbnx

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Just a note that I went with the Xilica XP-4080. Which takes 4 XLR inputs and gives up to 8 XLR outputs. They also offer a 2040, 3060 and 8080. It is a really nice system. Pretty easy to use with a relatively shallow learning curve. They have tutorial videos on their website and youtube in addition to the manual. If you program the unit from the front panel it is a little laborious but they have X-Console which is a software you put on your laptop. You can then make all your setting very easily and download to the Xilica using either USB or RJ45.
 

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