Hi, hope you all have been well. I have been a member for a while but have just been reading, I am somewhat in awe of your knowledge and your rigs but here I go. Since upgrading my system over the last few years I now stand at VPI Prime Sig, with Fatboy gimbal arm and Soundsmith The Voice cart, Pass XP-25 phono, Esoteric X 01-D2 sacd player, Luxman L509X amp going to ML ESL 11As and REL s812 subs via Cardas cabling with S/R and Cardas powercords and PS Audio conditioner.( think that about covers it!) Anyway, I have been finding that on some records the sq , and here I struggle to define this but if you could hear this you would concur, gets worse on the last maybe one third of the vinyl. Etched, bleached maybe? Again, words fail me except to say I stop playback because I can"t stand it. Now this SEEMS to be MOSTLY on pop/rock and older, thinner pressings. I don't hear it on " audiophile" pressings as a rule or even old EMI, DECCA, LYRITA, RCA, MERCURY etc. Most of my vinyl listening is to classical followed by acoustic jazz then pop/rock which is where it is most evident. I know my table, arm, and cart setup is spot on, the only variable for me is vta which I don't think would affect what I am hearing. Even after playing with that while listening I hear no change. I am doubting my sanity here and have been in our hobby for 30 years with 4,000 records and lots of cds. But it is only recently that my system has gotten to a point where it is very revealing. Anyway, as I say I am somewhat intimidated by the quality of the discussions that you all post and was reluctant to speak to my issue. I"M NOT WORTHY, right? But I have also noticed how kind and graceful you are so I have gotten over my shyness I guess. Or maybe I'm just looking for a diversion from current events. I sure would appreciate any feedback though, Also, I am thinking of a new cart soon and am intrigued by what I have heard about the Dyna XV-1s. But it would be nice if I could begin to listen to a full album for a change! BE WELL, thanks. Joe.
Some records sound worse on last song on the side?
- Thread starter Joe Fedenecz
- Start date
This is a problem as old as vinyl records themselves. You may not have noticed it before, but I noticed it from the time I got my first decent turntable, an AR-XA with Shure M91E cartridge, way back in 1966 or so. The problem is caused by increased problems with trackability in the "inner grooves" of a record. A fairly recent explanation of the problem and steps you can take which may mitigate the problem is here.
Back in the old days of vinyl, Shure cartridges were promoted for their ability to better track "hot" grooves than most other cartridges. Shure even put out Trackability Test records so you could see for yourself how well or poorly your cartridge did. Sure enough, Shure's top V15 cartridges did better on such tests than most others. But still, in the inner grooves, the sound was not as clear as elsewhere even if overt nasty mistracking crackles or sibilance were not present.
Back in the old days of vinyl, Shure cartridges were promoted for their ability to better track "hot" grooves than most other cartridges. Shure even put out Trackability Test records so you could see for yourself how well or poorly your cartridge did. Sure enough, Shure's top V15 cartridges did better on such tests than most others. But still, in the inner grooves, the sound was not as clear as elsewhere even if overt nasty mistracking crackles or sibilance were not present.
Hi Joe,
As @tmallin mentioned this is an old problem that you're dealing with. Yes, in the older days one of the attributes of mm cartridges was superior tracking over mc ones but it's not the case anymore or I don't see a difference these days and the tracking advantage was in the hot grooves (@tmallin) what you're describing is a different matter. What you're hearing is distortion and it's related either setup, poor tonearm geometry or both. I have no experience with your particular tonearm so I can't guess if the problem is user error or it's the arm.
david
This situation(i.e. songs sound worse on the inner part of an LP) is ingrained in regular(i.e. non-linear tracking tonearms) playback. Anti-skate is a compromise, and if you spend a lot of time listening as a test, you pick the best compromise for the sound. I've found the best compromise is to end up with the last song sounding worse than it could possibly sound with a different anti-skate amount. I think the last song sounding worse, if you've done things properly, is the best compromise for the overall sound. The forces pulling the arm inward is greater on the inner grooves. I believe more anti-skate, if the anti-skate was set properly, would make the last song sound better, but that's not the best compromise for anti-skate for the entire record.
Hi Joe
Interesting that you listen to classical music because this has always been where the problem was at its worst. tmallin's response above contains a link to a good explanation of "end-of-side distortion" if you click on the word "here" at the end of his fist paragraph - though the link does not show up on my screen till I do exactly that!
Yes it's to do with tone-arm design: e.g. a longer arm helps to keep the cartridge and stylus "running" in more of a straight line in relation to the groove (I have an SME 3012 series 2 which has always tracked superbly well, but I know the mass of the arm is greater than a shorter arm, which affects cartridge choice); radial-tracking arms remove the tracking angle problem but have to be precisely engineered so they can "pull" cartridge across record or else rely on a servo motor (I think! apologies if wrong) so the best ones from Clearaudio etc are v pricey; and finally the set-up of arm and cartridge has to be as exact as you can make it.
All that will help, but don't forget that this has always been a main bugbear of orchestral, choral, or operatic classical recordings on vinyl, because the end of a side often coincides with the end of the piece, with orchestral or vocal climaxes involving a v wide frequency range at a high volume level. To capture all this racket, the groove "route" should ideally have a greater radius, so that it would leave more room for the groove to change direction or "wiggle" as it passes beneath the stylus. And those wiggles may have to be wide (for strong bass such as loud bass drum strokes) or narrow (for high treble such as cymbal strokes) and everything in between (such as a choir singing a high loud concluding passage). Examples: the last few minutes of Stravinsky's Firebird, where the full orchestra plays FFF and the huge bass drum strokes can often cause crackling/mistracking with lesser cartridges; ditto the ending of Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture; and of course the finale of Beethoven's Choral Symphony. Solo piano and solo soprano voice are also difficult to capture and reproduce on vinyl, in my experience. And secondly, towards the end of the side the speed of the groove decreases, thus reducing the further its ability to allow for these variations (sorry, running out of technical vocab here but I'm not a technical guy anyway).
So: ideally vinyl LPs should have been recorded inside out, tracking from label to edge of disc, to allow for all this. AND/OR the whole turntable and record industry should have been set up to allow for the disc to maintain a standard speed in relation to the stylus passing along it.
Guess what? That's how CDs work.
For what it's worth, I have just bought a Clearaudio Titanium V2 MC cartridge which I use in an elderly but well serviced Linn LP12/Ittok LVII table/arm. The tracking is as good as I could wish for, even for difficult tracks as above, on elderly LPs. Could be the stylus shape as well, of course, but that's a whole other chapter.
Enough! Don't know if this helps. It's all compromise really.
Interesting that you listen to classical music because this has always been where the problem was at its worst. tmallin's response above contains a link to a good explanation of "end-of-side distortion" if you click on the word "here" at the end of his fist paragraph - though the link does not show up on my screen till I do exactly that!
Yes it's to do with tone-arm design: e.g. a longer arm helps to keep the cartridge and stylus "running" in more of a straight line in relation to the groove (I have an SME 3012 series 2 which has always tracked superbly well, but I know the mass of the arm is greater than a shorter arm, which affects cartridge choice); radial-tracking arms remove the tracking angle problem but have to be precisely engineered so they can "pull" cartridge across record or else rely on a servo motor (I think! apologies if wrong) so the best ones from Clearaudio etc are v pricey; and finally the set-up of arm and cartridge has to be as exact as you can make it.
All that will help, but don't forget that this has always been a main bugbear of orchestral, choral, or operatic classical recordings on vinyl, because the end of a side often coincides with the end of the piece, with orchestral or vocal climaxes involving a v wide frequency range at a high volume level. To capture all this racket, the groove "route" should ideally have a greater radius, so that it would leave more room for the groove to change direction or "wiggle" as it passes beneath the stylus. And those wiggles may have to be wide (for strong bass such as loud bass drum strokes) or narrow (for high treble such as cymbal strokes) and everything in between (such as a choir singing a high loud concluding passage). Examples: the last few minutes of Stravinsky's Firebird, where the full orchestra plays FFF and the huge bass drum strokes can often cause crackling/mistracking with lesser cartridges; ditto the ending of Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture; and of course the finale of Beethoven's Choral Symphony. Solo piano and solo soprano voice are also difficult to capture and reproduce on vinyl, in my experience. And secondly, towards the end of the side the speed of the groove decreases, thus reducing the further its ability to allow for these variations (sorry, running out of technical vocab here but I'm not a technical guy anyway).
So: ideally vinyl LPs should have been recorded inside out, tracking from label to edge of disc, to allow for all this. AND/OR the whole turntable and record industry should have been set up to allow for the disc to maintain a standard speed in relation to the stylus passing along it.
Guess what? That's how CDs work.
For what it's worth, I have just bought a Clearaudio Titanium V2 MC cartridge which I use in an elderly but well serviced Linn LP12/Ittok LVII table/arm. The tracking is as good as I could wish for, even for difficult tracks as above, on elderly LPs. Could be the stylus shape as well, of course, but that's a whole other chapter.
Enough! Don't know if this helps. It's all compromise really.
I also believe this is related to anti-skate. Simply setting anti-skate to the same value as VTF has never been optimal IME. I recommend to get the Hi-Fi News test record, which will allow you to optimize setup. https://www.musicdirect.com/analog-accessories/hifi-news-test-lp-producers-cut
The test record also contains (at least it did when I bought a previous version), an alignment protractor. Not all protractors are equally capable. A pivoted arm can only hit zero tracking error at two points on the record. Different protractors use different target points. The HFN protractor is worth trying, may provide a more suitable alignment.
Also make absolutely certain your cartridge is not skewed in the headshell.
The test record also contains (at least it did when I bought a previous version), an alignment protractor. Not all protractors are equally capable. A pivoted arm can only hit zero tracking error at two points on the record. Different protractors use different target points. The HFN protractor is worth trying, may provide a more suitable alignment.
Also make absolutely certain your cartridge is not skewed in the headshell.
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I did my "testing" before I had even heard of the theory of no anti-skate at all, so it was a given that I was going to use anti-skate, and I was just picking the correct setting(and assuming it was going to be close to the VTF number). So, it was a very narrow test(i.e. the setting was only within a limited anti-skate value.). I also forget, and a poster above reminded me, that the stylus is dragged(pulled?) across the record by the turntable, which should also be thought about. I think I did my testing with an original Ekos arm on a Linn LP12 turntable, if that helps.
I forgot to mention my phono cartridge, which was Linn Archiv(not the B version).
Reviewing this thread I’m not sure if I see the real culprit: poor cartridge/arm set up of the previous owner of the records. You mention that the issue is on “older rock pressings.” The previous owner of those records had a poorly set up cartridge that does more damage on inner grooves as the inertia is higher.
this is why all expensive records must be sound tested spinning, the inner groove damage is usually not visible from the naked eye.
this is why all expensive records must be sound tested spinning, the inner groove damage is usually not visible from the naked eye.
I have to mention here, that I did increase anti-skate, and the sound on the last song was better. It just resulted in a poorer compromise for the entire record.
Thank you for the thoughtful replies! After having Mike Trei set up the Dynavector XV-1s in my Kuzma 4point and Stabi R the sound is fabulous on everything from start to finish. It must have been that the Soundsmith The Voice cart was defective. It never sounded right on the VPI Prime Sig with the stock arm or the upgraded Fatboy gimbal arm or the Kuzma. I suppose people thought I was either nuts or ignorant of setup etc. I never considered the cart as being the problem, instead played with anti-skate, vta etc. I have a stack of records that I was going to trash thinking they were inferior but playing them now I am glad I didn't. I am going to have the Soundsmith cart rebuilt and sell it while having them inspect it prior to rebuild in the hope that they will discover the problem and perform the rebuild gratis. I feel somewhat sheepish about saying this because from all I have heard about Soundsmith I am sure the are a great bunch of people but I have been in this hobby since 1989 and while I have no audiophile friends I AM very knowledgable about our hobby and have learned so much since subscribing to TAS in the 70's. Also reading all of the posts here has given me a lot of great info. I am in Philly and don't get to hear the great systems that I enjoy reading about here, Louie I hope this is the start of a beautiful friendship. Be well.
I cant say I have this problem however you may find this Tacet label interesting !
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Apart from the arm quality and tracking issues, there is the question of where on the groove do you want your distortion to occur?
You actually have a choice albeit a small one based on the tangential alignment curve you choose for your cartridge. Along with the LoefgrenA DIN, Baerwald DIN and Stevenson curves, Dietrich Brakemeier's UNI-Din curve was derived specificlly to address the 'greater distortion at the inner groove' issue. UNI-Din is available on the UNI-Pro and SMARTractor protractors.
Of course there are trade-offs and compromises to each alignment curve choice, with greater higher or lower distortion occuring, for example, at different places during the beginning, middle, or end of an LP side along with the notion of overall and average distortion. And there is the question: is one curve better for a certain type of music than another?
Rather than go into detail here, let me point you at a couple resources.
Attached is an article (pdf) by Brakemeier explaining his approach and why he created UNI-Din. In effect it is a curve in a context, a context not available at the time of Baerwald or Loefgren, whose curves were designed when the mono shellac 78rpm record was the standard. Yet even today they are considered by many a 'best compromise' for arm/cartridge set-up. Imo, the article is very interesting and worth a read. I play mostly classical music and often use the UNI-Din curve to align a cartridge.
Then, below, is a helpful diagram created by Wally Malewicz that shows visually each curve across the length of a record and where it has its distortion. Copy this picture to your device and enlarge it to see it better. It has an accompanying link by Fremer.
Note: lead-in groove is on the right, end of record on the left.
You actually have a choice albeit a small one based on the tangential alignment curve you choose for your cartridge. Along with the LoefgrenA DIN, Baerwald DIN and Stevenson curves, Dietrich Brakemeier's UNI-Din curve was derived specificlly to address the 'greater distortion at the inner groove' issue. UNI-Din is available on the UNI-Pro and SMARTractor protractors.
Of course there are trade-offs and compromises to each alignment curve choice, with greater higher or lower distortion occuring, for example, at different places during the beginning, middle, or end of an LP side along with the notion of overall and average distortion. And there is the question: is one curve better for a certain type of music than another?
Rather than go into detail here, let me point you at a couple resources.
Attached is an article (pdf) by Brakemeier explaining his approach and why he created UNI-Din. In effect it is a curve in a context, a context not available at the time of Baerwald or Loefgren, whose curves were designed when the mono shellac 78rpm record was the standard. Yet even today they are considered by many a 'best compromise' for arm/cartridge set-up. Imo, the article is very interesting and worth a read. I play mostly classical music and often use the UNI-Din curve to align a cartridge.
Then, below, is a helpful diagram created by Wally Malewicz that shows visually each curve across the length of a record and where it has its distortion. Copy this picture to your device and enlarge it to see it better. It has an accompanying link by Fremer.
Note: lead-in groove is on the right, end of record on the left.
UNI-DIN Versus Löfgren B Just to Clarify
Fascinating - this is exactly what I was trying to describe in my much less learned and amateurish response of 2 Jan! I had no idea that the Tacet company existed, far less that they were exploring and resolving the end-of-side distortion issue I described. Perhaps they might have given me a job... I suppose one problem with backwards-playing records would have been applying reverse anti-skate; another would have been the popular market for auto turntables where reverse play might not have been possible.
Ain't this just a great hobby?
Thanks very much for the post, Tima.
Ain't this just a great hobby?
Thanks very much for the post, Tima.
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