Sliding force???

ack

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#1
I accidentally happened upon an ECM LP with a blank fourth side ("Into The Silence")

1547148458222.png

and notice what happens:


Then I enabled and adjusted anti-skating to tame it:


I know ddk has designed his platter to provide a sliding effect to some degree, but I thought mine was excessive. Still trying to assess possible sonic effect.
 
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ack

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#3
Yes I agree
 
May 30, 2010
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#4
IMHO a blank disk is not the proper way of setting anti-skating - in real playback the modulated grooves produce an higher force.
 
May 27, 2013
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#6
IMHO a blank disk is not the proper way of setting anti-skating - in real playback the modulated grooves produce an higher force.
This is correct, setting A/S on a blank LP so that the arm is stationary will result in much too high of a setting. It is generally recommended to set it on the inner portion of a blank LP (i.e. where a long leadout groove would be) so that the arm may momentarily be stable and then slowly drift inwards toward the spindle.
 
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ack

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#7
FWIW, the sonic effect of my arm at least is significant drop in high frequency distortion, especially at louder passages, with more correct sibilance than before. I am sure the drop in distortion is everywhere, but it was quite evident with high frequencies and especially violin.

Other than parallel arms, it feels like one cannot ignore the anti-skate force
 
May 30, 2010
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#8
And yet your suggestion is???
The best I have found is an old HiFi news test record that has inner, middle and peripheral test tones at different recording levels. It should however be used with a distortion meter - listening or using an oscilloscope is not enough. I would not adjust bias however for the highest level tracks.
 

ack

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#9
UPDATE: I have done careful A/Bs with and without anti-skating on my arm - set with the blank side of the record - and using the Telarc drums as a bass reference, the differences are somewhat shocking; anti-skating results in more articulated and tight whacks. This, on top of reducing high frequency distortion and improving sibilance. Ahhhh the importance of the arm...
 
Dec 28, 2018
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#10
I agree the most accurate way to set AS is with a distortion meter, since that is what you are trying to eliminate. The stylus leaning too hard on the inner wall, leaving possible voids on the outer wall and thus distortion. If no meter available, then I always work to get the arm to slightly move inwards and not stay in one spot.
What I have thought about is using a test record with a 1KHz tone as a last track or close to end, then simply use like a Foz meter and see if you get more reading on the inner channel......This may be wrong but it could tell you your AS needs adjusting.

As a song with hot recording I use Genesis More Fool Me, last track side 1 of Selling England By The Pound.....If you can eliminate the harshness of Phil's Sssss on that song you are doing real well, get it to sound natural. I have it about 90% done, I suspect if I had a Ortofon A90 or Lyra Atlas cart, I could all but eliminate it.
 

Folsom

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#11
I agree that distortion reduction is ideal, but few can do that. And the irony is you can only cut the distortion in one area of the record because AS is linear and the record is not.
 
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awsmone

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Apr 7, 2014
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#12
IMHO a blank disk is not the proper way of setting anti-skating - in real playback the modulated grooves produce an higher force.
Totally agree

I have tried this, and its way too low

The frictional force is greater with a grooved disc, and the forces are also at 45 degree angle to the stylus, which is different to a blank where the force is only vertical, I assume the modulations are like giving the stylus tiny little taps on the side( well 45 degree), this is different from sliding over an unmodulated blank, where there is no sideways modulation of force
 

awsmone

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Apr 7, 2014
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#13
Totally agree

I have tried this, and its way out in my own attempts

The frictional force is greater with a grooved disc, and the forces are also at 45 degree angle to the stylus, which is different to a blank where the force is only vertical, I assume the modulations are like giving the stylus tiny little taps on the side( well 45 degree), this is different from sliding over an unmodulated blank, where there is no sideways modulation of force

I believe the recommendation of setting up on blank portion of grooved disc inner blank with slow drift in comes from a prominent tonearm manufacturer

I have used the same old HFN test record, and never found the highest tracking groove helped much, to me the most musical and balanced setting was slightly less than what was required to drop distortion on low and medium
This may have to do with our ability to hear 2nd harmonic distortion is pretty limited, and so not overly relevant, in fact it may even sound "lovelier"
I also have used an oscilloscope in the past
 

ack

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#14
As a song with hot recording I use Genesis More Fool Me, last track side 1 of Selling England By The Pound.....If you can eliminate the harshness of Phil's Sssss on that song you are doing real well, get it to sound natural. I have it about 90% done, I suspect if I had a Ortofon A90 or Lyra Atlas cart, I could all but eliminate it.
I posted yesterday elsewhere that I was able to remove most of the phasey sibilance from a Sheffield record with Amanda McBroom, but truth be told, towards the end of the LP the issue surfaces somwwhat again. So as Folsom said, the anti-skating force is linear but [tracing] the LP isn't.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Jan 25, 2015
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#15
I posted yesterday elsewhere that I was able to remove most of the phasey sibilance from a Sheffield record with Amanda McBroom, but truth be told, towards the end of the LP the issue surfaces somwwhat again. So as Folsom said, the anti-skating force is linear but [tracing] the LP isn't.
What is “phasey sibilance”? (What does phase have to do with sibilance?)
 

ack

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#16
What is “phasey sibilance”? (What does phase have to do with sibilance?)
It's distorted, it sounds out of phase, not a clear "S" but rather an out of phase "SSHSHSH"
 

Ron Resnick

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#17
Respectfully, how do you know it has anything to do with phase?
 

ack

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#18
Because it changes character when you go mono on the preamp
 
Dec 28, 2018
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#19
I posted yesterday elsewhere that I was able to remove most of the phasey sibilance from a Sheffield record with Amanda McBroom, but truth be told, towards the end of the LP the issue surfaces somwwhat again. So as Folsom said, the anti-skating force is linear but [tracing] the LP isn't.
I'm not familiar with that track, but if you removed/corrected most of the issue then you are on a winning path. I suspect this track is difficult one for sibilance at end.

For me if it happens on one or two records OK, could be simply hot mic spots that you can't make better anyways. I don't have a distortion meter and I would not get one either seems wasteful compared to how much it might happen. The other thing is if you can observe your cantilever straight on towards end of record as as long as it is not being pulled hard left or right, I would think you have it well adjusted.

Enjoy!
 

Folsom

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#20
Respectfully, how do you know it has anything to do with phase?
It could also be the roundness of the record affecting it too. Well it's not the roundness of the record, but the centering of the hole for the spindle. If it's off at all pitch varies a little. Usually it's off a scooch (we're talking under a mm often, but it's audible)

But antiskate can cause a similar affect if it's not just right. I'm not sure I'd call it "phase" but it's a problem.
 

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