Science Thread: Review of Audioquest Jitterbug and Uptone Regen USB Conditioners

Sep 30, 2015
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Alex has already accepted the ABX challenge.That is a huge mistake. I can only hope he has the cojones to drop out.

The ABX Challenge goes like this"


I can hear a difference
But there is no measurable difference.
I and many others have heard it
If you heard it will not mind proving it in a DBT.
Sure. No Problem.

Sounds to me like he ran away with his tail between his legs.
 
Sep 29, 2015
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A bit more statistical analysis shows that of 50 odd posts Mr Sherman has clocked up in this thread, about 33 are either personal attacks or extremely disparaging of this thread.

can't wait to see what's next :)
Great that you have time to do analysis... I wonder what you boys will be measuring next.

I have much better things to do with my time, and frankly...

after participating in this thread one needs to take three showers to remove the stench...

 
Jul 1, 2010
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Great that you have time to do analysis... I wonder what you boys will be measuring next.

I have much better things to do with my time, and frankly...

after participating in this thread one need to take three showers to remove the stench...

All you had to do was stop participating. The snide comment accomplished nothing for you or anyone else.

Tim
 
Apr 3, 2010
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Alex has already accepted the ABX challenge.
No he didn't. This is how it went down:
====
Would you sit for a blind test?
Sure, any day of the week. With a blindfold. My system, my music, my choice of what to play and when to switch.
=====

No mention of ABX.

That is a huge mistake. I can only hope he has the cojones to drop out.
That was my advice to him too but not for reasons you mention.

The ABX Challenge goes like this"
I can hear a difference
But there is no measurable difference.
I and many others have heard it
If you heard it will not mind proving it in a DBT.
Sure. No Problem.
So?
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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AMIRM
See Post 1015. . I do not need a history lesson. I have followed this entire thread. Forgive me for condensing the back and forth down to a few lines. In my mind this issue could have been dealt with in less than 50 posts.
Yes, I introduced the term ABX into the thread. ABX is one form of DBT that includes a blind component. No matter what the test it will necessarily involve attempting to select the "treated version from some number of untreated versions. with all the inherent pitfalls.

Good night to a very lovely day on the East Coast.
 
Sep 30, 2015
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I would gladly throw my Ressonessence Mirus into a 3 way test with USB, USB/REGEN and SD card. Anyone who picks USB or REGEN/USB will either be a liar, or stone cold deaf.
 
Sep 29, 2015
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I would gladly throw my Ressonessence Mirus into a 3 way test with USB, USB/REGEN and SD card. Anyone who picks USB or REGEN/USB will either be a liar, or stone cold deaf.
Why don't you bring or send your DAC to Amir and let him measure each different input and the SD card and see if there are any MEASURED differences.
 
Sep 30, 2015
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Why don't you bring or send your DAC to Amir and let him measure each different input and the SD card and see if there are any MEASURED differences.
Yes measurments too. But throw the REGEN in the mix as well. Then after, the subjective test can follow as well. No snake oil, just good old fashioned tests.

One of the bonus's of professionally built products is, they are actually tested before being sold. So no need to run with tails between legs when measurement tests arise.
 
Sep 29, 2015
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Yes that's what I meant. But throw the REGEN in the mix too. Then after the subjective test can follow as well. No snake oil, just good old fashioned tests.
But what does the Regen have to do with your assessment of the hierarchy of DAC inputs?

Did the Regen come with your DAC? Is it build into your DAC?

Why subjective tests?

First you need to see if the measurements at the DAC outputs can show any difference, and then how this relates to your claims of what you hear?

How can we trust what you hear... and the claims of what you hear unless they can be VERIFIED with measurements...
 
Sep 30, 2015
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But what does the Regen have to do with your assessment of the hierarchy of DAC inputs?

Did the Regen come with your DAC? Is it build into your DAC?

Why subjective tests?

First you need to see if the measurements at the DAC outputs can show any difference, and then how this relates to your claims of what you hear?

How can we trust what you hear... and the claims of what you hear unless they can be VERIFIED with measurements...

This is the kind of feedback reviewers give on the Mirus:

"The Mirus possesses the best measured performance of any DAC we have measured to date, by quite a large margin"

Why don't we see comments like that with the REGEN on the front end of the reviewers DAC's? I suspect the only thing that would happen if the REGEN was attached to the Mirus during a test is degraded performance.

A great product passes both the subjective and objective tests.
 
Sep 29, 2015
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This is the kind of feedback reviewers give on the Mirus:

"The Mirus possesses the best measured performance of any DAC we have measured to date, by quite a large margin"

Why don't we see comments like that with the REGEN on the front end of the reviewers DAC's? I suspect the only thing that would happen if the REGEN was attached to the Mirus during a test is degraded performance.

A great product passes both the subjective and objective tests.
That has nothing to do with what I said.

Why are you suspecting things?

What do your unfounded suspicions have to do with OBJECTIVE testing of the inputs of your DAC and how these measurements relate to what you claim you are hearing?
 
Sep 30, 2015
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That has nothing to do with what I said.

Why are you suspecting things?

What do your unfounded suspicions have to do with OBJECTIVE testing of the inputs of your DAC and how these measurements relate to what you claim you are hearing?

Bob, have you been drinking? Wake up and listen to what I offered. Full out subjective/objective testing on 3 configurations. Mirus via USB, Mirus via REGEN/USB and Mirus via SD card transport.
 
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Sep 30, 2015
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When industry leaders like Bruno Putzeys say things like this about the REGEN, maybe people should listen. Bruno is the furthest thing from a snake oil salesmen of anyone in the industry. When your at his level BS is not necessary.

"It is difficult to classify BS once it's reached the total nonsense
threshold. The sad thing is that it takes engineering skills to build this
product (otherwise there would be no sound) but this is then used to pursue
an unverifiable goal. Essentially they built a machine to perform a
religious ritual.

The technical point that should be put across is that the USB clock is never
used to generate the audio clock anywhere. Even changing the frequency
(within the specs permitted by USB) would have zero effect on the actual
conversion rate. Modern USB audio is asynchronous. The DAC has its own clock
and will simply request new data when needed. The USB clock only regulates
the transmission of those packets of data, but has no influence whatsoever
on the rate at which the DAC operates. If the USB clock speed is low, the
DAC will simply, on average, request slightly more audio samples per USB
packet."
 

Jinjuku

New Member
Apr 18, 2011
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AMIRM
See Post 1015. . I do not need a history lesson. I have followed this entire thread. Forgive me for condensing the back and forth down to a few lines. In my mind this issue could have been dealt with in less than 50 posts.
Yes, I introduced the term ABX into the thread. ABX is one form of DBT that includes a blind component. No matter what the test it will necessarily involve attempting to select the "treated version from some number of untreated versions. with all the inherent pitfalls.

Good night to a very lovely day on the East Coast.
It won't be DBT. It will be SBT. This is why you are catching grief: You are jumping to conclusions.
 

rblnr

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 3, 2010
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Can't catch up on this whole thread, but thanks Amir for cutting through the noise.

I'm not a measurement-driven audiophile, I trust my ears at the end of the day. Call me an objective subjectivist.

But when I hear explanations of why something works that don't make sense to me (such as the whole expensive server/USB thingees into an asynchronous DAC), I'm skeptical and very happy to see measurements. And open-minded if something's there. IMO, there's a faction of audiophiles that hears stuff that doesn't exist outside the space between their ears. If it works for them, fine. I put most cones, footers, expensive cables, and other stuff in this category too -- 99% of the time I don't hear a difference -- so that's where I'm coming from.

I don't, for example, put speakers into this category -- the best measuring speaker I ever had, flat frequency response both on/off axis among other things, was definitely not the best sound I've heard or owned. Point for me anyway is that measurements have a place, but they're not the whole story. To each his own where that place is.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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,... many listeners enjoy high distortion... h.
Keith.
this is why I have to stay active in threads such as this . So many fires to stamp out.

I guess it is all relative and depends on what you mean by"high distortion."IMO truly high distortion makes the sound nearly unintelligible. Examples can be found on the internet.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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It won't be DBT. It will be SBT. This is why you are catching grief: You are jumping to conclusions.
Bias is only one aspect of a listening test. Perhaps the least important. Of course we harp on it because we think we understand it and it serves our purpose.
 

Jinjuku

New Member
Apr 18, 2011
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Bias is only one aspect of a listening test. Perhaps the least important. Of course we harp on it because we think we understand it and it serves our purpose.
Bias isn't an aspect. It is a variable to mitigate. I think it's the most important because perceived differences can indeed disappear in the absence of knowing the test answers before taking the test.

It's the reason why a forum full of cable burn in proponents kept going on about the obvious differences. They scattered like they were scalded with boiling water when I proposed a really well thought out test.

A test the removed all the legs of the argument they were standing on:

Unsighted? Nope they would have full view of the cables.

What cables where in the loop at the time of listening? Nope, they would be doing the cable swap themselves.

Duration? short or long? They had 30 day's to do ears only evaluation in any interval they wished.

A test that Bob Lee, lead application engineer at QSC Audio, likened my proposal to Copernicus walking through an Astrologers convention.

The only problem with bias controlled testing is not taking the measures to do it correctly. I have a well thought out test coming for Ethernet cables also.
 
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Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Bias isn't an aspect. It is a variable to mitigate. I think it's the most important because perceived differences disappear in the absence of knowing the test answers before taking the test. I
]n a true scientific test the test subject should have no predisposed opinion about the DUT. Nor should he have a stake in the outcome. If you want to take someone down that is a different matter and not scientific at all