Samsung loses patent suit to Apple

[amirm]

Hi

If LTE is a standard then there is a known and fixed amount to pay. Can a company refuses payment? OR is i simply a ploy .. I see this as a dangerous move from Samsung. Such use of a "standard" dilute the notion of standard... That would be like Sony refusing their standard to Toshiba for BluRay players ...

There is no known fixed amount. Standards groups shy away from that as it could be considered anti-trust violation (major corporations agreeing on a certain price together). They simply create a standard and let the patent situation become whatever it becomes. It is a terrible situation for new companies wanting to get in the business. They are hugely disadvantaged.

As to refusing to pay, you can of course until the moment you get served with a lawsuit and lose . You can also be subject to treble damages (three times) if you do so knowingly. In general, it is unheard of that a standard is adopted by a major company and no attempt is made to license what created it. The odds of you escaping liability is exceedingly small. As you see from my last post, there are a ton of patents involved so dodging them all becomes very challenging.

As I noted in previous response, almost all standards groups have a condition of participation called RAND: Reasonable and non-Discriminatory licensing. This means that the price must be the same for all licensees and you cannot refuse to give them a license. So there is no danger of Samsung not providing a license to Apple. The reverse however is not true. Apple has no obligation to give a license to Samsung for look and feel of the iPad, gesture commands, etc. They could literally shut them out of the market although doing so when you are a dominant player could cause anti-trust scrutiny. Then again, it is unlikely that US government would get involved to protect the rights of a Korean company.

 

[asiufy]

In some rare cases, another company can be the agent. Dolby for example used to be the licensor for AAC on behalf of multiple companies. Right now, as I read the news, anyone wanting to get into the market needs to go around getting separate licenses. The companies who created the standard though may have cross licensing deals with each other meaning they don't need to get a license.

So it's completely feasible that Apple is paying either Qualcomm or Intel, in exchange for 100% coverage of the LTE patents, due to these possible cross licensing deals?

 

[amirm]

So it's completely feasible that Apple is paying either Qualcomm or Intel, in exchange for 100% coverage of the LTE patents, due to these possible cross licensing deals?

No, no . Cross licenses usually cannot be extended to third-parties. You are only covered for your own products.

If Apple uses Qualcomm for its baseband processor (the thing that controls the radio) then it doesn't owe Qualcomm extra money (most likely). However, it will owe Samsung, Intel and countless other people money for using their patents.

I am confident when this is all said and done, Apple will be paying a ton of royalties to others. From the previous article:

"Samsung and Qualcomm aren't the only major players in the LTE patent space, however. Nokia, which has entered into licensing agreements with both Motorola and Qualcomm for certain LTE-related patents, dominates the portfolio for LTE network security patents, accounting for nearly half of all such patents. And InterDigital has a total of 336 LTE patents and 23 seminal LTE patents, which iRunway says is more than the total number held by LG, Nokia, Sony and Apple, among others. Since InterDigital is currently planning to sell off its patent portfolio, iRunway concludes that it "could be a strategic addition to any company that is looking to monetize and/or defend its competitive position in the market." And finally, iRunway finds that Ericsson has a fair number of LTE patents with around 210 total patents and 29 seminal patents, putting the company in good position to license out its technologies to others."

"Seminal" patents means "core" or essential patents that are considered to be impossible to work around and are mandatory in the standard.

Before Apple got into phone business the rumors were flying that were going to do that. I remember asking people both internally and major mobile phone manufacturers how they were going to deal with it. They ALL without exception told me that it was impossible for Apple to build a phone due to their non-existent patent position in wireless technology. Apple charged ahead without fear. I am surprised they have not had to pay huge sums for the current technologies they use. Or perhaps they are paying for them.

This is a miserable business to be in. The worry is not actually all of the above patents but the ones you don't know about yet! There will be many people coming out of the woodwork claiming to have essential patents in the future.

Current way money is made is from new formats is to make money from devices while one can. When that profit dries up, the game becomes making money from others through patents.

 

[Keith_W]

I suppose the main message here is that there is such a thing as patent karma You behave like a patent troll, you become the victim of other patent trolls.

 

[asiufy]

Amir,

So the cross licensing deals don't extend to third parties. Come to think of it, it makes sense
I'm not sure, but I don't believe the companies are obligated to disclose licensing deals, so Apple could be paying Samsung already, and we wouldn't know.

And to the resident troll of this thread: do you know why Google bought Motorola, don't you? Don't you? P-A-T-E-N-T-S. And who's a patent troll again?


alexandre

 

[amirm]

There is no question Google needed Motorola hardware like a hole in the head . The interest was certainly in the patent portfolio. There are a lot of basic patents beyond LTE that Motorola has a good share in. And likely they have cross-license deals which if they were smart, are transferable to the buyer (Google).

Part of the problem is that Google was naive in its approach to the market, thinking that if you have an open-source piece of software, or developed something on your own, you are immune to patent claims. Neither is the case. The realization set in later, forcing them to go and acquire Motorola to have some sort of life boat. Assuming they don't lose their shirt managing that hardware business, it was a smart use of their collection of cash sitting in the bank collecting dust.

 

[NorthStar]

---I didn't get any 'virus' from this thread, any of you? :b

 

[amirm]

As I mentioned about the dock connector: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-5...onnector-change-is-awful-dont-kid-yourselves/

"Apple's dock connector change is awful, don't kid yourselves
Apple's decision to use a smaller dock connector instead of Micro-USB is consumer-unfriendly, bad for the environment, and offers few, if any, obvious tech benefits.

With this week's iPhone 5 announcement, Apple confirmed many rumors about the new phone, both good and bad. The most disappointing confirmation of all, though, is the resized, redesigned, and still proprietary new dock connector.

Apple calls the new connector Lightning, but giving it a clever name doesn't mean it adds anything but dollars in Apple's bank account.
The company has legendarily built a strong business on licensing its proprietary connection technology to accessory makers, and in selling its own premium cables for a handy $19 each, plus $29 for adapters. But as the rest of the tech industry moves to a standard micro-USB charging format, Apple's decision is unwelcome in a time of smaller budgets for most shoppers and it's ecologically irresponsible, to boot.

The move is all the more disappointing since Apple was, as of last year, actually supporting the International Electronics Commission's push for a universal, micro-USB charging standard.
Phil Schiller told AllThingsD that the dock connector changed because Apple wanted to continue making devices smaller and thinner, and the old dock connector just didn't cut it.
That's true, the old dock connector was pretty big. But you know what's almost the exact same size as the new dock connector? A micro-USB charging port.

And the smaller connector doesn't seem to add a single benefit that would justify its continued proprietary nature -- other than, possibly, Thunderbolt compatibility ("adaptive interface"). Although Schiller presented the new connector as a "feature," Apple isn't touting any faster syncing or charging. In fact, the Lightning to USB cable is a mere USB 2.0, not even 3.0. Lightning? Not so much.

The Lightning adapter. This shouldn't be necessary.

The GSM Association reports that the mobile phone industry produces between 51,000 and 82,000 tons of replacement chargers every year, many of which end up in landfill. The association also notes that a standard charger could eliminate the need for new chargers with each device, reduce packaging, and reduce discarded charging cables, potentially lowering the carbon footprint of the wireless industry by, at minimum, 13.6 million tons per year. Plus, once certified, the chargers are potentially up to three times more energy efficient than unrated chargers, saving energy costs and lowering overall consumption.

That all apparently sounded pretty good to Apple in 2011: it's listed here along with Nokia, Research In Motion, Emblaze Mobile, Huawei Technologies, LGE, Motorola Mobility, NEC, Qualcomm, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, TCT Mobile (ALCATEL), Texas Instruments and Atmel (or "everyone else," if you're keeping track at home) as a signatory to the new, universal standard.

So, what happened? My hope would be that the iPhone 5 designs were already in the works in February 2011 and the company didn't want to change the plans until the next go-around. But Schiller also told AllThingsD that the smaller dock connector "is the new connector for many years to come."

That may be good news for accessory makers -- I'm sure Bose will be happy to sell an upgraded SoundDock or two at $500 a pop -- and it's obviously good news for Apple, the only company currently selling the Lightning to USB and $29 or $39 Lightning adapter.

Note, however, that the adapter product page points out, not all 30-pin devices will be supported, and it won't carry video or iPod-out signals, or analog audio signals. So, yes, the iPhone 5 and 2012 iPods will probably require some all-new accessories.

That means Lightning is bad news for your wallet and bad news for the landfill, too."

 

[Keith_W]

Actually Amir, I disagree. I might be known for my anti-Apple stance, but I think the new connector is very good design. All of us use connectors - ask yourself which are the easiest to insert? You want a connector which is sturdy, which does not have pins which are easily bent, and which are preferably agnostic as to which way they are inserted. The old RS-232, as well as DVI are very poor designs - they require alignment of multiple pins, the pins are easy to bend (or break) - particularly if the connector is forced in, and you need to be careful which way you insert it. In contrast, the mini-jacks for audio is good design - the connector is sturdy, and it does not care which way it is inserted. HDMI, USB and Micro-USB are annoying to use - every time you insert it, you have to check which way is facing up - but they are far more robust than RS-232 or DVI.

The new Lightning connector looks sturdy, but best of all it is agnostic as to which way it is inserted. No more looking at your connector and deciding which way is "up". You just shove it into the phone and that's it.

Kudos where it is due. Well done, Apple.

 

[amirm]

I can assure you that the #1 reason Apple came up with that connector was to make money from licensing. Otherwise, they would announce that the connector spec is open and everyone else can adopt it for free. Which of course they are not.

As to merits of the connector, there are some. But it is sill less than ideal:

1. Phone companies need to adopt inductive charging so that no wire/connector is necessary at all to accomplish that. I have had that in my toothbrush for 10 years. Why not the phone? Some cell phone companies have already put this in but without broad support, it is still not going anywhere. The best use would be in the car. It is a pin to plug and unplug things there every time you get in and out.

2. Exposed pins. You better not live in dry places with that connector. Touching it the exposed pins/traces on that connector will transmit a nice shock to whatever is at the other end of it. SD card adopted similar exposed pins and regretted it. When I spoke to companies in the inside circle, they said a lot of cards are damaged that way.

3. I have to look at the connector in person but it sure looks delicate and long for the thickness it has. I wonder how long it will last before it cracks.

4. While more expensive I think we should use wireless connection for most functions just the same. Sending audio could be that way.

Per the article above, they joined an organization to standardize the charger. Whatever wishes they had they should have put in that organization to drive standardization.

So yes, the connector is better but they had one chance in 10 year to make a move on this consumer-focused front and they chose to put profit ahead of that. That is what corporations are supposed to do of course. But with a guy who has 50+ power supplies in his drawer, I think we are way overdue for standardizing the charger. BTW, I keep my old chargers and re-purpose them. For example my son bought a small portable guitar amp that did not come with a power supply and I found a matching one in my bucket of chargers.

 

[asiufy]

Amir,

I agree that both the old and the new connectors, from the little I've seen and read, are far from ideal. Apple really missed the chance here. But the problem I see is with the overloading the main usage of that connector (charging). Apple wants to use it for all sorts of things, which complicates things if you want to have it as an open standard. How would Apple keep its traditional secrecy if it was forced to propose an extension to the standard out in the open? That wouldn't work...

alexandre

 

[amirm]

That's my point . When it comes to charging a device, there should not be any secrecy. I was so tired of buying half a dozen chargers for the car and homes until the rest of the world standardized on mini-USB.

They can always keep things secret and require a license through software. Just because the device physically mates with another, it doesn't mean it can still "talk" to it. They can issue authorization keys to unlock functions. Even then though there should be a larger cry for standardization.

Think of our current audio hobby. How many proprietary connections is there? None. Power cables are standardized. Audio interconnects are standardized. Media is standardized.

As I said, it is the duty of a corporation to maximize profit. As consumers though we need to raise our voice when this goes too far so that we get a balanced picture. Apple gets an incredible free pass here. And they push it beyond the point of reasonableness. Witness their old DRM'ed audio tracks where nothing would interoperate with it.

 

[FrantzM]

I, for one find myself more and more annoyed with Apple behavior.. it won't be long before the level of discontent rises and becomes a thorn in Apple side .. It is clear they are milking us on that connector thing.

 

[amirm]

Did anyone watch their announcement video? I spent an hour doing that last night. I have to say, it was such a turn off. In every sentence they thanked themselves for being so smart and so successful. It was a rare moment when another company was mentioned. No credit was given at all to their customers and importantly, fans. No thanks given for that or anything else. It was all "Apple engineers were so smart here. And there." And that "we are the leaders here. And there." Or "we sold so many here. And there." The whole affair started with them showing the picture of the new store in Barcelona and how people lined up to get in and what expensive stone was used to build it. Who came to an announcement of iPhone 5 to see the opening of a store?

I heard little to no cheer during the announcement. You could see the shock at times in the presenter who hoped someone would cheer and nothing came back. Whether it was the jobs factor or not, I don't know. But if I were them I would look at this event as a turning point and not count on wind being way behind them.

I once competed with a market leader which talked like this (they had 90% share, we had 10%). Every press release would start with "as the recognized leader...." They had heavy handed licensing like Apple does. No one would give us time of day. But we kept improving our product. Then one day, we hit a level where technically we crossed them and then hell broke lose. People could not wait to get away from the other company. So the tide turned rapidly in our favor. Let's hope Apple gets wisdom and doesn't continue to work like they are entitled to this success. Apple fans don't see or want to see what they do wrong. But the time comes when that could change....

 

[NorthStar]

-----Methinks that Samsung is no better either with their customers.

...In general.

 

[asiufy]

Amir,

You're damn right. Apple is getting complacent. But see, it's GOOD that Apple is like that. That forces the 10% to work hard(er), to come up with even greater products. It makes their (the 10%) job easier, since the Apple folks are too busy congratulating themselves and thinking about store openings to care about the end product.
We've seen this happen (complacency ruining companies), and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again.

NorthStar,

You're damn right too Just an example: Apple and Samsung both have factories here in Brazil. Apple's iPhones and iPads made here and identical to their chinese counterparts, and cost about 10-15% less. Could be better, but good deal. Now, Samsung's Galaxy S2, made here, doesn't have Gorilla Glass, like the original (made in Korea or China or wherever), and yet it costs just as much every other imported phone, or an iPhone (about US$ 1000). Samsung doesn't give a s*** about its product, as long as they can cut costs. Apple went the other way, they cut costs by having Foxconn strike a deal with the government to reduce some of the abusive taxes.


alexandre

 

[amirm]

-----Methinks that Samsung is no better either with their customers.

...In general.

True enough. I explained earlier how there is a nice cartel that creates standards around their own patented technology and then turn around and essentially force everyone to license it at whatever cost. Did you know that you pay $2.50 for each MPEG-2 license in Blu-ray player? As you may know, almost no Blu-ray content uses MPEG-2. But folks wanted it mandated to collect the high fees. You only pay 30 cents btw for the better MPEG-4 AVC/VC-1 in Blu-ray. Why? Because my group got involved and we made sure the license for the follow on standard was cheaper . We could not ever put in MPEG-2 in every copy of Windows due to high licensing cost ($1B/year!).

There are a lot of dark secrets here.

 

[Keith_W]

Now that the iP5 has been released, what do you think will happen too Apple's little red line? Think Apple have come enough to come close to Android's pink line?

 

[Steve Williams]

I found this on a local blog re the new dock.


Comments anyone

People will be frustrated in the beginning but everything will be fine and holiday sales figures will speak to that.

The original iPod used a 6 pin FireWire connection in 2001 but that changed in 2003 when they introduced an entirely new connection protocol that operated on 30 pins - people were upset then too.

Lightning is faster than the old dock connector and is 100% digital. Micro USB serves no benefit to accessory manufacturers. Even if Apple implemented micro USB then current accessory makers would still have to redesign their products to work with the new phone so I don't see what the big deal is

 

[amirm]

I don't think the world at large has any choice but to implement the wishes of Apple on this front. That much is clear. As to manufacturers redesigning things, well if they used micro USB then their market would be much larger with the product working for both Android and iOS. Something tells me they would be happier that way .