Rockport Orions with a subwoofer?

[microstrip]

IMO I don't think any speaker company doesn't recommend implementing subs, even those that don't make sub products. But there's a perception that some speakers are so elite that subs dilute the sonic benefits of the mains.

Unfortunately yes. An abusive generalization, IMO. Surely I easily accept that the bi-amplified Arrakis's in Rockport exceptional listening room don't need subs. But very few audiophiles have such rooms.

How, if remotely even true that outweighs the detriments of sub(s)'room mode management is comical.

Yes. First - how can people tell if a subwoofer is or not beneficial without proper knowledge of the room? Many times the best position for imaging and timbre creates a bass null, that can't be compensated unless we place a bass source in another position - nulls due do cancellation can't be equalized. Second - how can others know how a particular listener appreciates the effects of having subsonic stereo information?

Those having read Andy Payor will not find that he opposes the subwoofer concept - his main concern is using different types of amplifiers with the different transfer functions in a system. He dislikes the idea of matching for example a SET with a class D for bass.

Subwoofer systems are not all the same. One the best tools I have tried when playing with subs was the JLAudio CR1 active crossover damping function, even when used just for the sub.

BTW, my experience with subs is just with the JLAudio F113 mk2's with the CR1 active crossover and the Wilson Watchdog's and Wilson Audio crossover.

 

[JiminGa]

Apparently I became "confused" speaking with Josh last week during our hour long conversation. One of several last year and this one, along with John. BTW both great people to speak with. Perhaps he or I wasn't specific enough? Or perhaps the client in Mexico City that Josh told me about with Lyra's and a 6 pack array of Carbon Special's was also a figment of my imagination. The obvious was mentioned regarding set-up. Getting the Lyra's situated first. That's when things become murky, and me talking about the cubic feet, would one consider a pair of 31's or 32's vs the 6 pack array of Carbon Specials. If memory serves me right that's when the figment of my imagination erupted and me "thinking" that Josh mentioned the client in Mexico City. Along with Josh saying go with the 6 pack of Carbon Specials, especially the fact that you have them. I love a good Mystery! I also wish I had the unlimited scratch to implement the Lyra's now! Selling my 6 Carbon Specials will help. BTW, it's a good thing this has come to my attention because I was go to speak with the imaginary figure in Mexico City...

No need to get huffy. You are not confused. They are not going to share their personal views and maybe I shouldn't have either. They will help any client achieve what they are looking for. My conversations go back years (prior to Josh) and never involved my personal tastes. I'm interested in their design philosophy and tastes. As they are speaker designers over the years I have brought up all the potential benefits of subwoofers of which there are many. We went over each one. One by one. They personally and in their own systems do not favor them. Of course they would point you to customers who have done so and are happy with the results if you want to do so. I myself used the Real 25s with the Cygnus when I had them for almost 10 years. They have the same woofers as Lyra. It took a very very long time to perfect them. I did enjoy it and I missed certain things about them when I took them out in preparation for Orion but on balance I was happier without..The Orion woofer couples with the room very differently than Lyra which is why I chose it over Lyra. I am not calling you confused. I am responding to your post. There is a pubic side to this and a private one. Lets leave it at that. Andy used to build speakers with built in subs. He also had a powered Arraakis. Its possible they will revisit it when creating a new top of the line mega speaker one day. As I said i asked them about building a woofer/subwoofer tower for this but they are focused on building the highest performance speaker in the smallest possible enclosur at this point. The opposite of almost every other brand. its ok to have your own opinion and tastes and to pursue them. I applaud you.Go have fun in Mexico. Build your dream. Its your own.

 

[John T]

No need to get huffy. You are not confused. They are not going to share their personal views and maybe I shouldn't have either. They will help any client achieve what they are looking for. My conversations go back years (prior to Josh) and never involved my personal tastes. I'm interested in their design philosophy and tastes. As they are speaker designers over the years I have brought up all the potential benefits of subwoofers of which there are many. We went over each one. One by one. They personally and in their own systems do not favor them. Of course they would point you to customers who have done so and are happy with the results if you want to do so. I myself used the Real 25s with the Cygnus when I had them for almost 10 years. They have the same woofers as Lyra. It took a very very long time to perfect them. I did enjoy it and I missed certain things about them when I took them out in preparation for Orion but on balance I was happier without..The Orion woofer couples with the room very differently than Lyra which is why I chose it over Lyra. I am not calling you confused. I am responding to your post. There is a pubic side to this and a private one. Lets leave it at that. Andy used to build speakers with built in subs. He also had a powered Arraakis. Its possible they will revisit it when creating a new top of the line mega speaker one day. As I said i asked them about building a woofer/subwoofer tower for this but they are focused on building the highest performance speaker in the smallest possible enclosur at this point. The opposite of almost every other brand. its ok to have your own opinion and tastes and to pursue them. I applaud you.Go have fun in Mexico. Build your dream. Its your own.

Agreed, several sides when explaining. I get it, and sorry for the sarcasm. I did get a chuckle regarding "go have fun in Mexico". Great culinary experience in Mexico City, with or without subs...

 

[JiminGa]

Agreed, several sides when explaining. I get it, and sorry for the sarcasm. I did get a chuckle regarding "go have fun in Mexico". Great culinary experience in Mexico City, with or without subs...

Agreed. Big fan of Mole.

 

[sbo6]

BTW, my experience with subs is just with the JLAudio F113 mk2's with the CR1 active crossover and the Wilson Watchdog's and Wilson Audio crossover.

I'm curious your thoughts comparing the JLA F113s Mk IIs with the CR1 versus the Wilson watchdogs and the Wilson XO.

 

[VPN]

I received my Rockport Orion last week, so just starting the long burn in. Using them with my two Perlisten d215s (with Revopods). Now crossing the Perlisten at 32hz, second order, gain at -17.5db. Quite happy with the sound.

 

[LL21]

Congrats! That is really great news...look forward to reading more about them. What happens when you turn on/off the Perlistens? Most intrigued!

 

[VPN]

Congrats! That is really great news...look forward to reading more about them. What happens when you turn on/off the Perlistens? Most intrigued!

Thank you!

I lived with large speakers (modded Dunlavy SC-VI) for 27 years, so I love bass extension and feeling the music in the whole body, not only ears.

As great as the Rockport Orion are, my listening, and that of two audiophile friends who were here on Monday, is that it sounds much better with the two perlisten. More extended lows, more body impact, better body in the midrange. Perlisten currently crossed at 32hz.

 

[Alpha121]

Thank you!

I lived with large speakers (modded Dunlavy SC-VI) for 27 years, so I love bass extension and feeling the music in the whole body, not only ears.

As great as the Rockport Orion are, my listening, and that of two audiophile friends who were here on Monday, is that it sounds much better with the two perlisten. More extended lows, more body impact, better body in the midrange. Perlisten currently crossed at 32hz.

My experience is the same.

I am running Rockport Orions with dual Perlisten D12s in a 10,000 room, and it is a substantial difference with the subs on. The 13" woofers, as great as they are, cannot possibly pressurize the room alone.

The Perlistens are extremely fast and tight. A bit expensive, to be sure, but really worth it.

I dialed in the subs with REW, and the 10 band parametric equalizer was straightforward to use.

Also, the subs fire forward while a lot of the basscenergy of the Orion comes out of the rear port, so it's good at balancing the room.

 

[LL21]

Thank you!

I lived with large speakers (modded Dunlavy SC-VI) for 27 years, so I love bass extension and feeling the music in the whole body, not only ears.

As great as the Rockport Orion are, my listening, and that of two audiophile friends who were here on Monday, is that it sounds much better with the two perlisten. More extended lows, more body impact, better body in the midrange. Perlisten currently crossed at 32hz.

Super helpful to know. I actually can well imagine that, but it is always great to hear directly from the people in the room. Enjoy!

 

[VPN]

My experience is the same.

I am running Rockport Orions with dual Perlisten D12s in a 10,000 room, and it is a substantial difference with the subs on. The 13" woofers, as great as they are, cannot possibly pressurize the room alone.

The Perlistens are extremely fast and tight. A bit expensive, to be sure, but really worth it.

I dialed in the subs with REW, and the 10 band parametric equalizer was straightforward to use.

Also, the subs fire forward while a lot of the basscenergy of the Orion comes out of the rear port, so it's good at balancing the room.

What is the crossover frequency that you are using? Slope? Gain level?

 

[sbo6]

Great to hear others with the Perlisten reference subs. I've integrated my 2 D215s with Vivid Giyas, XO at 48Hz as my room has some challenging peaks and dips up to ~55Hz that the D215s greatly help to ameliorate (always use REW). And yes, there is more impact and presence along with a further degree of effortlessness. With 4: 11" woofers and 4 15" woofers handling <=220Hz, the system sounds much larger than it appears IMO.

 

[sbo6]

I received my Rockport Orion last week, so just starting the long burn in. Using them with my two Perlisten d215s (with Revopods). Now crossing the Perlisten at 32hz, second order, gain at -17.5db. Quite happy with the sound.

You might want to consider pushing the subs to the front wall corners which helps reduce corner induced modes and provides sub reinforcement.

 

[VPN]

You might want to consider pushing the subs to the front wall corners which helps reduce corner induced modes and provides sub reinforcement.

After the long burn in period of the Orion, I will have a professional do a detailed position optimzation of the Orions and then the Perlisten. This is just an initial position, and the idea was to physically time align the Perlisten with the Orion.

 

[VPN]

Great to hear others with the Perlisten reference subs. I've integrated my 2 D215s with Vivid Giyas, XO at 48Hz as my room has some challenging peaks and dips up to ~55Hz that the D215s greatly help to ameliorate (always use REW). And yes, there is more impact and presence along with a further degree of effortlessness. With 4: 11" woofers and 5 15" woofers handling <=220Hz, the system sounds much larger than it appears IMO.View attachment 159835

Beautiful room and system! Congrats!

 

[JiminGa]

After the long burn in period of the Orion, I will have a professional do a detailed position optimzation of the Orions and then the Perlisten. This is just an initial position, and the idea was to physically time align the Perlisten with the Orion.

I don’t generally favor subs with them but if you do strongly consider in a plane just outside of your Orions. Even aligning the rake angle will yield results. Getting it right isn’t trivial. If you’re getting a professional strongly consider Stirling Trayle who has his own company or Todd and Gale fromTSE in Omaha. Either option will be the best in the business.

 

[sbo6]

After the long burn in period of the Orion, I will have a professional do a detailed position optimzation of the Orions and then the Perlisten. This is just an initial position, and the idea was to physically time align the Perlisten with the Orion.

I'm curious to see the results and the response if the pro measures the room.

Also, FYI - although the subs and speakers are physically time - aligned, the mains' amp and subs' amp will alter phase alignment, so if you have your subs' phase presumably set to 0 assuming they're phase aligned with the mains, it's highly likely they won't be.

Plus, the mains and subs bass drivers' interaction and the room interaction will also require adjusting the phase.

 

[JiminGa]

I'm curious to see the results and the response if the pro measures the room.

Also, FYI - although the subs and speakers are physically time - aligned, the mains' amp and subs' amp will alter phase alignment, so if you have your subs' phase presumably set to 0 assuming they're phase aligned with the mains, it's highly likely they won't be.

Plus, the mains and subs bass drivers' interaction and the room interaction will also require adjusting the phase.

Absolutely

 

[JiminGa]

After the long burn in period of the Orion, I will have a professional do a detailed position optimzation of the Orions and then the Perlisten. This is just an initial position, and the idea was to physically time align the Perlisten with the Orion.

Not sure where you are located but if you’re ever in Atlanta give me a heads up if you’re interested in coming by for a listening session

 

[VPN]

Not sure where you are located but if you’re ever in Atlanta give me a heads up if you’re interested in coming by for a listening session

Thank you! I live in Sao Paulo, Brazil, but would love to hear your system next time I go to the U.S.