Question on how power cables affect system performance

[BlueFox]

Caelin, a couple of threads bought up a question in my mind regarding the capabilities of power cables. At various times, people have stated things similar to "the bass improved", "the mids became more open", "the highs more pronounced", or variations. From my perspective, I just say everything sounds better when I added a Shunyata power cord.

However, I have felt that it wasn't the power cable causing various frequencies to be better defined. Rather, I feel that the cable is delivering cleaner power, and lower DTCD, to whatever piece of gear, and this then allows the gear to perform better. In other words, the gear is working as designed. It is this better performance that results in better bass, etc. This is the basis of why I now say power and cables are the foundation of a system.

If that is valid then while one person using cable 'X' might experience better bass, somebody else with different gear might experience something else with cleaner power, depending on how their gear reacts to cleaner power.

Along this line, I suspect those who feel things decreased when adding a power cable might actually be hearing their gear operate at a better level, but not prefer the more accurate sound. In other words, they prefer the sound resulting from a lower level of performance. I say this because it doesn't seem reasonable that a piece of gear would perform worse with better power.

While it makes sense to me that an interconnect could affect the various frequencies making up a musical signal regardless of the gear at either end, does Shunyata feel a power cable can enhance any aspect of the music signal?

 

[CGabriel]

Bud, much of you what you have said is true. Power cords can only, directly, affect two things: DTCD current delivery both instaneous and continuous and the second is CCI which is composed of RFI and EMI.

To understand why power cords affect the sonics you need to understand how power supplies function and what their limitations are. Almost all conventional power measurements are averaged over several power cycles which obscures what happens at certain instantaneous points in time. To see why power cords make a difference we need to look at what happens during a single power cycle. This gets complicated and is beyond what most people want to read. So, the bottom line is that 120 times per second, when the rectifiers switch on, the power supply goes into a high conduction state. During this time there is a complex interaction in the power supply of instability with the inrush of current and the regulators attempting to maintain a reference voltage. Noise from power line ( a small percentage) may pass through the power supply during this high conduction state and therefore a type window to the power line opens up 120 times per second. Additionally the power cords have different DTCD rates which means that power cords with lower DTCD ratings will allow the storage caps in the power supply to fill faster per half cycle which means that the rectifiers will be on for a smaller period of time decreasing the time that the supply is in a high conduction state. It also changes the behavior of the rectifiers. All of this combined will change the performance of the power supply and therefore the sonics will change.

And we haven't even talked about CCI (component to component interference). So, a seemingly simple cord can affect some very complex interactions.

 

[Alrainbow]

A simple question , how can a power cable add or subtrac voltage or current ?
I truly understand the part of rf shielding with variations in how the cable is made. As for cycle to cycle this could be seen with a scope. But please explain the rf ?
Al

 

[CGabriel]

A simple question , how can a power cable add or subtrac voltage or current ?
I truly understand the part of rf shielding with variations in how the cable is made. As for cycle to cycle this could be seen with a scope. But please explain the rf ?
Al

Power supplies pull current in pulses, when the rectifiers turn on and off at the peaks of the sine wave. These pulses have current harmonics greater the 50th harmonic of the power line frequency. Power cords have different resistance and more significantly inductive reactance which affects the RC time constants when charging the storage capacitors in the power supply. These differences can be directly measured with the DTCD Analyzer or indirectly with a device used by commercial electricians called a ASCC (available short circuit continuity test). Differences as high 30-50% can be measured on an actual live in wall AC circuit by simply changing the last 6 feet of power cord at the end.

You can do it with a scope that has a triggered single screen capture function. Devices that measure AC voltage average the reading to obtain an RMS value and peak current readings are also summed across an entire cycle not for the few micro to milli seconds that the retifiers are in an actual conduction state.

 

[Alrainbow]

As in my office rig , I have dedicated circuits 4 in total each from the same pole or phase in the panel . Although they are 20 amp circuits I used 8 gauge to each circuit with a common ground conductor for all 4 circuits . ISO gnd spec grade outlets is used. Now this lowers the imp significantly from panel to device. But nothing for the power cord as you state . So as the I mod drops drastically during the charging cycle for the caps and or primary of the ISO trans . This method allows for a faster transient response . But you cable complete the circuit, very good. What affect does your cables have with multiwave power regeneration systems . As this type of power regeneration greatly improve sound .
Al

 

[CGabriel]

As in my office rig , I have dedicated circuits 4 in total each from the same pole or phase in the panel . Although they are 20 amp circuits I used 8 gauge to each circuit with a common ground conductor for all 4 circuits . ISO gnd spec grade outlets is used. Now this lowers the imp significantly from panel to device. But nothing for the power cord as you state . So as the I mod drops drastically during the charging cycle for the caps and or primary of the ISO trans . This method allows for a faster transient response . But you cable complete the circuit, very good. What affect does your cables have with multiwave power regeneration systems . As this type of power regeneration greatly improve sound .
Al

Al, we were not talking about our products specifically just the differences in power cords in general. You might want to ask a manufacturer of regenerators about their interaction with power cords. I see that you appreciate regeneration but I am not sure everyone would agree with your last statement. Of course there are system interactions and personal preferences involved.

 

[BlueFox]

Caelin, thanks. I find this subject interesting since I have had such positive results from power upgrades. Especially so, since only a few years ago I was more of a sceptic on this subject. Anyway, what I was getting at in my beer induced question is that it is hard to quantify what effects an individual would experience with a power cord upgrade. This partly resulted from the individual wondering how the Alpha would affect his McIntosh device.

Depending on how the power supply reacts to the better power, it appears the end result could be anything; better bass, better treble, etc. The problem, if that is the right word, is someone reads a post where person 'A' says the bass is tighter with the cord on his gear. Person 'B' thinks that is what they want, but because their gear is different, the end result could be different. Then they blame the power cord.

I can see where this makes things difficult for a manufacturer since it is hard to quantify what sonic improvements can result from upgrading a power cord. While it can be described in generalities, it isn't as simple as with an interconnect where you can show a square wave in, and a square wave out, to demonstrate what the cable can do.

 

[Alrainbow]

I can agree the cables matter , but it all,is complex as to the whole chain and it's synergy . As for regeneration I know it seems to be a holy war. No body who does not have wants to hear about it. The truth is me either. But in my headphone systems it made a big difference. I would not use it for speaker power amps though. But front ends and pre,s are fine . And with the multiwave it improves it further. Ps audio does have a 30 day trial too so no losers if it does not work. But there is plenty of people of the camp of no way , but do feel the same way about ISO trans , s ? All helps or not in some applications .

Al

 

[CGabriel]

We have found that the sonic differences are fairly consistent. Most people are used to listening for changes in frequency response, for example when comparing speakers. The primary change that a (good) power cord brings is the reduction of time and transient blurr directly. This is perceived as a quieter background and a revealing of greater transparency. This also allows more spatial cues to emerge enhancing sound staging. If the audio system is poorly setup or has bad time alignment to begin with then many of the potential benefits of power cords are not realized because the system's time coherence is so screwed up. This can also occur in a room that has too many early reflections. This accounts for some people's experience that power cords make no difference whatsoever.

Along with this comes a perception of subtle changes in frequency response but primarily at the frequncy extremes. There is a perceived extension of high frequency as a result of less blurring of transient information. And there is sometimes a change in bass extension or articulation. This is also from the reduction in time smear or improved efficiency in an amplifier. Some of the bass response changes has to do with the harmonics produced by the rectifier's since they are operating at bass frequencies 50-120Hz.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[CGabriel]

I can agree the cables matter , but it all,is complex as to the whole chain and it's synergy . As for regeneration I know it seems to be a holy war. No body who does not have wants to hear about it. The truth is me either. But in my headphone systems it made a big difference. I would not use it for speaker power amps though. But front ends and pre,s are fine . And with the multiwave it improves it further. Ps audio does have a 30 day trial too so no losers if it does not work. But there is plenty of people of the camp of no way , but do feel the same way about ISO trans , s ? All helps or not in some applications .

Al

Al, in a headphone system such as yours a power regenerator would likely have very good results. I personally own many power regenerators and own a patent on a type of real time active power correction. So, I am quite experienced in what an active power conditioning system is capable of and what its limitations are.

Enjoy your system my friend. It sounds like you have found a synergy that works great for you.

 

[Alrainbow]

Ok I was not trying to down you or products . Please understand to obtain peoples opinions especially of products that may or may not conflict it is important to ask. As of now most hi end manufactures do not want there products to be involved with such items . Believe I know I own a msb stack and not the analog either a new complete plus system with galaxy clock. The point is even when I asked msb they did not down it but I could here in his voice listen and see what you think.
It's like the anti Christ for audio lol. So I get it. But I have a 150 system with put the headphones so I can here or not the benefit. So please do not take me for picking on you or such products I just wanted a open dialog discussion .

Al

 

[CGabriel]

Ok I was not trying to down you or products . Please understand to obtain peoples opinions especially of products that may or may not conflict it is important to ask. As of now most hi end manufactures do not want there products to be involved with such items . Believe I know I own a msb stack and not the analog either a new complete plus system with galaxy clock. The point is even when I asked msb they did not down it but I could here in his voice listen and see what you think.
It's like the anti Christ for audio lol. So I get it. But I have a 150 system with put the headphones so I can here or not the benefit. So please do not take me for picking on you or such products I just wanted a open dialog discussion .

Al

No offense taken, Al. I hope there is none at your end. In all areas of audio there are different philosophies of design. I have always believed that there is room for differing views and products.

If you have a question i would happy to help but it sounds as you have already found a solution that is working for you.

 

[Alrainbow]

None here either and thanks . And I do have a solutuion but I do known there is always room for imprivment . That's why I asked . As for how all this works that too is try and error and part of research. And I cannot ask the proponents of the power regeneration makers as they say coo next the power amps as well witch from listeing test!so does sound correct at louder volumes so it's ask others. Your products carry a great respect in this community and thanks for the explanations.

Al

 

[CGabriel]

None here either and thanks . And I do have a solutuion but I do known there is always room for imprivment . That's why I asked . As for how all this works that too is try and error and part of research. And I cannot ask the proponents of the power regeneration makers as they say coo next the power amps as well witch from listeing test!so does sound correct at louder volumes so it's ask others. Your products carry a great respect in this community and thanks for the explanations.

Al

Ok buddy just shoot me a question and maybe I can answer it. But remember, I am not at your place. I can't hear your system so you have to try and explain what you want to accomplish.

 

[Speedskater]

Most likely a typical power regenerator is speced dumping current into a big resistor. A big power amplifier is a much more demanding load.