Panzerholz - its application in audio systems

tima

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Mar 4, 2014
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#1
Talk about the use and merit of panzerholz in audio systems broke out in bonzo75's thread about user Tango and his system. Part of that was about the Taiko Audio Daiza product and partly about panzerholz in audio generally. An energetic discussion ensued. The Daiza product has at least two informational / advocacy threads.

Rather than swerve bonzo's thread (and others) further, this thread is offered. It is not meant to be focused solely on a specific audio product. Discussion of all panzerholz uses, products, and merit are welcome here as well as discussion about the merits or demerits of panzerholz itself.

Moderators may copy messages here from the thread mentioned above (or not). Panzerholz seems to be a topic of interest. Little was resolved earlier.

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In case there is a pause in further discussion, here is some reading material:

Panzerholz® A DIN 7707-compliant hardened panel material made of a combination of phenolic resin and hardwood with a hardened structure.

(DIN 7707 is apparently a set of standards for resin impregnated and compressed laminated wood.)

Panzerholz Is apparently a registered product name of Delignit, an off-shoot of Blomberger Holzindustrie GmbH in Blomberg Germany. cf. here and here.

PDF Datasheet here - only available in German.

Panzerholz - there is no English language Wikipedia entry; this one is in German.

The Virtues of Panzerholz - An Investigation into the Acoustical Properties of Aluminum and Panzerholz
- this is by Louis Motek of LessLoss, an innovative audio manufacturer in Lithuania; the company is an avid user of panzerholz for several years now.

Plugging the terms "What is panzerholz?" into a search engine yields little information about the product itself, but lots of references to various audio forum pages, much of those related to tt plinths and speakers.

Anything you sit a component on will change how the component sounds in some way. Shoud you put your components on a piece of panzerholz?
 
Jan 16, 2013
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#2
Panzerholz is used in all Kaiser speaker models. I have always thought that the Kaiser speakers were VERY natural sounding speakers compared to others -

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Taiko Audio

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#3
There are quite a few variations. Typically birch wood is used in its construction in Europe, maple in the US. Grain orientation, lay and layer thickness can all be specified. We use a variant known as “piano material”, used to construct soundboards in pianos. I can supply more information tomorrow if there is sufficient interest.
 

bazelio

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2016
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#4
@Taiko Audio what are the resonance characteristics of panzerholz and how do the crop circles in your Daiza platforms change things? What made you select panzerholz for your bases in the first place, if the material resonates in the audio band?
 

Taiko Audio

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#5
A large problem in high end audio is the need for metal parts with high transmissibility and low internal damping of soundwaves, it keeps ringing... Analogues to a piano string in this explanation on a soundboard of Yamaha.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/contents/musical_instrument_guide/piano/trivia/trivia006.html

Piano strings are made of steel. In contrast, the soundboard that translates their energy into a rich, resonant sound is made of wood. If it were only a matter of loudly amplifying the sound produced when the hammers strike the strings, a metal plate would have been much more efficient. So why is the soundboard made from wood? The answer is that, unlike metal, which amplifies both low and high frequency sounds in the same way, wood amplifies only the lower-frequency sounds. For the higher frequencies, it does the opposite: it cuts them off.

If you listen closely and focus only on the sound the struck strings make, you would find that it is full of metallic jangling noises. If this sound were to be amplified as is, the piano would end up being a giant noise generator. The reason why this does not occur is because wood, the material from which the soundboard is made, cuts off the higher harmonic components (overtones), leaving only those components of the sound that are musical, that sound good to our ears, transforming them into a richer, more resonant tone.

In other words, the soundboard is a "board that transmits vibrations," while at the same time, it is in a certain sense, a "board that stops vibrations." What makes the spruce family, and especially Alaskan (Sitka) spruce, so highly valued as soundboard materials is that these species have the property of absorbing the higher overtones more effectively. They transmit only the sounds that we perceive as round and mellow in a rich fashion.
 

Taiko Audio

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#6
@Taiko Audio what are the resonance characteristics of panzerholz and how do the crop circles in your Daiza platforms change things? What made you select panzerholz for your bases in the first place, if the material resonates in the audio band?
There are always modes in each and every object dictated by material properties and dimensions. The circles change those. Furthermore we have additional damping systems in place, basically cavities filled with foam. This also works by damping interface resonance (footer to floor for example).

We picked panzerholz out of a whole range of materials we tested to get high frequency damping, in the range above our active isolation platforms cut of, without having to use compliant materials which always introduce a resonance peak at the self resonance of the spring / mass system created. It just performed better at this then everything else we tried.
 

Taiko Audio

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#7
Likes: EuroDriver

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
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#8
Whether from the point of view of musicians or the point of view of audiophiles I would think it not controversial to suggest that certain woods have inherent characteristics that are good for use in musical instruments and in audio components. Panzerholz seems to be one such type of wood.
 

Hyperion

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
289
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Stockholm/Sweden
#10
Kaiser uses Panzerholtz (or "Tankwood") in their speaker cabinets and baffles (the new Furioso series). So does Artesania and Kroma in their racks and speaker stand platforms.

Kroma uses thermoplastic screws rather than metal for the drivers as well to avoid the ringing mentioned earlier in this thread. These are magnificent speakers that truly conveys the essence of the music in a beautiful and highly engaging way.

/ Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se

 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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#15
I would think it not controversial to suggest that certain woods have inherent characteristics that are good for use in musical instruments and in audio components. Panzerholz seems to be one such type of wood.
Hmmm ... you pinged my scepticism with that one Ron. I'm taking it as 'friendly conjecture'. But if you have more info, pls share. Don't know if your comment is not controversial, but I did not take it for granted.

Couldn't find any references to violins, violas, cellos, basses, clarinets, recorders, lyres, oboes, bassoons basset horns, etc. etc. made from Panzerholz®

I did see where the Delignit Brand (maker of panzerholz) sells their Delignit® wood product for use in piano rim panels. Now all this stuff from Delignit is translation from their native German, so it's a bit awkward (for me anyway). I'm assuming when they say rim panel they refer to what is known as the piano rim, viz. the spine, bentside and tail of a grand piano- the outside rim, usually laminated - not the sounding board. Uprights have rims too.

Presuming from Delignit having that use for their Delignit product (which is not panzerholz but some other engineered wood) they have seen it actually used for piano rims. But I couldn't find reference to any pianos claiming to use it - maybe it's a trade secret. We know companies have made pianos for hundreds of years without it. It's a possible choice. Not sure that is sufficient to claim panzerholz is "good for use in musical instruments." Imo, panzerholz audiophle devotees ought make its case on its merits without association to musical instruments. But I do understand why some are inclined to make the association.

I don't know if its fair to trees to call panzerholz wood. It does have wood in it. Being a proprietary product there is some mystery to it. Guess we can assume that when someone refers to it as wood they mean engineered wood.
 
Feb 8, 2011
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#16
Question: Are there scientific proven measurements done before and after integrating this audio product to validate the beneficial performance?

Two: If not is it something only the ears can hear?

* I have flutes (I play flutes...several) made of various woods from all over the world, including birch, and a guitar made of maple (acoustic studio guitar), and maple electric guitar, etc., etc., etc., and they all sound different, like all loudspeakers do and all rooms do.
In audio anything goes ... just like in the art of the deal.

I'm sure they make a difference...how much?
 

Taiko Audio

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#17
Panzerholz is mainly more dense, with a lower transmissibility and higher internal damping then other types of wood. Ebony would be closest in density.

Panzerholz is just compressed layered birch wood drenched in phenolic resin.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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#18
Hmmm ... you pinged my scepticism with that one Ron. I'm taking it as 'friendly conjecture'. But if you have more info, pls share. Don't know if your comment is not controversial, but I did not take it for granted.

Couldn't find any references to violins, violas, cellos, basses, clarinets, recorders, lyres, oboes, bassoons basset horns, etc. etc. made from Panzerholz®

I did see where the Delignit Brand (maker of panzerholz) sells their Delignit® wood product for use in piano rim panels. Now all this stuff from Delignit is translation from their native German, so it's a bit awkward (for me anyway). I'm assuming when they say rim panel they refer to what is known as the piano rim, viz. the spine, bentside and tail of a grand piano- the outside rim, usually laminated - not the sounding board. Uprights have rims too.

Presuming from Delignit having that use for their Delignit product (which is not panzerholz but some other engineered wood) they have seen it actually used for piano rims. But I couldn't find reference to any pianos claiming to use it - maybe it's a trade secret. We know companies have made pianos for hundreds of years without it. It's a possible choice. Not sure that is sufficient to claim panzerholz is "good for use in musical instruments." Imo, panzerholz audiophle devotees ought make its case on its merits without association to musical instruments. But I do understand why some are inclined to make the association.

I don't know if its fair to trees to call panzerholz wood. It does have wood in it. Being a proprietary product there is some mystery to it. Guess we can assume that when someone refers to it as wood they mean engineered wood.
Gosh I don’t know where to start with this post but here are few short comments:

Most speakers are made from MDF covered in car paint or veneer. Some use normal plywood. Some use composites. Often people are not designing to induce a resonance profile in their cabinet.

Musical instruments are designed using a combination of materials applied judiciously according to their requirements in position. Of course you wouldn’t wish to use Panzerholz for an *sound board* lol. There is a wealth of data on the qualitative sound of different tonewoods.
 

Taiko Audio

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#19
Of course you wouldn’t wish to use Panzerholz for an *sound board* lol.
Well you could depending on how long you want a string to ring after being hit by the hammer and how much you want the sustain to sound like the material it’s made from. Which drives home your point, it’s all about how much of which resonance you want to be audible for how long, which defines colour I guess.

Which is exactly why we use panzerholz as material for platforms as we want to lower the time our metal chassis hifi appliances ring after being hit by a soundwave. And panzerholz is the most capable material we’ve come across to do that without behaving like a spring.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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#20
Well you could depending on how long you want a string to ring after being hit by the hammer and how much you want the sustain to sound like the material it’s made from. Which drives home your point, it’s all about how much of which resonance you want to be audible for how long, which defines colour I guess.

Which is exactly why we use panzerholz as material for platforms as we want to lower the time our metal chassis hifi appliances ring after being hit by a soundwave. And panzerholz is the most capable material we’ve come across to do that without behaving like a spring.
Yes the point I am making is that one selects a tonewood specifically because it is full of resonance and rings a lot (giving all manger of rich overtones and colour). Panzerholz would not be a good choice for this purpose.
 

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