Natural Sound

[tima]

Video D has slightly more dynamic transients and seems a wee bit clearer. Video C has a small edge in harmonic rightness. Cannot say a preference for one or the other - both sound good. Guessing that C is the Ortofon. Am inclined to agree with Bonzo on not too representative of vdH Colibri.

 

[morricab]

Video D has slightly more dynamic transients and seems a wee bit clearer. Video C has a small edge in harmonic rightness. Cannot say a preference for one or the other - both sound good. Guessing that C is the Ortofon. Am inclined to agree with Bonzo on not too representative of vdH Colibri.

Also guessing C is Ortofon but prefer D, sounds to my ears more real with the dynamics and transparency.

 

[morricab]

I prefer video C. My guess is that it is Ortofon.

I don’t think any of these videos is representative of a vdh sound but no idea how much carts have changed from Stradivarius to the GC elite.

I am just cognizant of the fact that those who haven’t heard the vdh before might dismiss it based on these videos which would be an incorrect decision

i cannot watch the second classical video as it seems blocked.

You don’t think it’s representative why?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I prefer video C. My guess is that it is Ortofon.

I don’t think any of these videos is representative of a vdh sound but no idea how much carts have changed from Stradivarius to the GC elite.

I am just cognizant of the fact that those who haven’t heard the vdh before might dismiss it based on these videos which would be an incorrect decision

i cannot watch the second classical video as it seems blocked.

Also preferred C and guess it is Ortofon.

 

[Tango]

@PeterA. May I suggest you try the Telefunken 12AX7 Red Tip on your ML2. They are quite expensive $550 a pop but worth it. The tube probably last longer than we are. You will get even better clarity, the ability to see into the scene, instrument differentiation.

 

[tima]

May I suggest you try the Telefunken 12AX7 Red Tip on your ML2.

Good suggestion.

Typically a colored tip on a small tube is a mark put on it post-production, not by the manufacturer. Coloring/painting the tip can be a dealer mark to indicate the tube came from him -- dealers don't like selling a tube then getting a different tube in return. Sometimes it is used to mark the dealer's grade of the tube.

A good piece of info to have for a tube is its date of manufacture. Many people believe certain dates for certain tubes are 'superior' than other dates. Sometimes that can be known by its construction. Most tubes have a factory coded date but you need to know how to translate that and Telefunken has its own unique set of codes. It is like LP markings on the run out.

There are several Web pages that decode Telefunken dates.

The Telefunken 12AX7 or ECC83 is considered desirable and thus there are counterfeit instances. The critical marking for a tube manufactured by Telefunken as genuine is a diamond <> molded in the glass in the center of the bottom of the tube. You may need to hold it an angle to see it but the mark is v. distinct. As Tang notes, this particular tube in NOS condition can be pricey, depending on date. A general rule of thumb for Telefunkens is late 1950's through 1960s are good but within that range some years are better than others.

The stock 12AX7 from Lamm is from Sovtek. Those are in short supply right now because Russia boycotted their export because of Ukraine - at least in the US. But any 12AX7 should work, the idea being they all share the same electrical properties.

There are lots of different brands of 12AX7/ECC83 (Amperex, Siemens Halske, Mullard, etc.) each with their own sonic characteristics. Telefunkens are well thought of - very clear sounding with neutral tone, maybe a teeny bit light in the bass.

I'm thinking Peter is new to tubes and may not be into tube rolling right now. Nonetheless ... it may be inevitable.

 

[microstrip]

(...) The critical marking for a tube manufactured by Telefunken as genuine is a diamond <> molded in the glass in the center of the bottom of the tube. You may need to hold it an angle to see it but the mark is v. distinct. (...)

Unfortunately there are many tubes that have a genuine diamond and are fake 12AX7 - the factory that made them also made other similar double triodes with the molded diamond. I read that another critical parameter is pin diameter - fakes usually have thinner pins. I have seen tubes where the diamond was simply etched by laser engraving - it is grooved, not molded! But it would pass in a casual inspection.

At this time the more frequent Telefunken 12AX7's are pulled from old equipment and although the tube is supposed to last for 10000 hours , they can be at the end of their life and measure perfectly.

 

[PeterA]

Thank you for your comments. You guys are good at hearing differences. Video C is indeed Ortofon. So is video A. I have no idea why video B is restricted. I see it on my home computer just fine but not on my telephone. It is the same music as video A, So I don’t know why it was flagged and not both of them.

It is certainly possible, even likely, that when David visits and fine-tunes the set up, the sound will change slightly and improve. I am still learning about cartridge set up. The primary difference between the cartridges as I hear it live in the room is that the Ortofon has a deeper richer tone while the Colibrí has just slightly higher resolution with a bit more detail on the leading edges and a slightly better sense of the recording ambience. I think this comes through on the videos but the contrast is not quite as great as it is listening live to the system.

Unless I am making direct comparisons or switching from one to the other, I just listen to the music as presented by either cartridge and don’t think about the other one or what I am missing. I think of the differences more as strengths than as weaknesses.

 

[djsina2]

First of all, I never thought I'd be able to tell the difference on a youtube video. This is a very interesting comparison method!

I like the vdH, for sure. More fingers and lips on instruments and drum sticks on drums to my ears. But that's the sound I like. Everyone hears differently of course.

Thank you Peter!

How did you know which one was the vdH?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for posting these videos, Peter!

I preferred C (Ortofon) over D (vdH). I found the vdH to have just a little bit too much treble energy.

PS: The interesting thing for me is that it is more difficult for me to detect the greater treble energy issue I have with vdH cartridges on vintage speakers than on contemporary speakers. To my ears the flatter frequency response of contemporary loudspeakers (or maybe it is my perception of a tipped-up frequency response of contemporary loudspeakers?) is not a good match for what I perceive from the vdH as greater treble energy.

You described accurately exactly what I have heard from comparisons on systems (with both vintage loudspeakers and contemporary loudspeakers) between vdH cartridges and other cartridges:

“[the non-vdH cartridge] has a deeper richer tone while the [vdH cartridge] has just slightly higher resolution with a bit more detail on the leading edges and a slightly better sense of the recording ambience.”

This is all, of course, purely subjective, personal preference, but I am a single issue voter: I will generally prefer “deeper, richer tone” in any comparison.

On Tannoy Westminsters and on JBL Hartsfields I preferred the resolution and transparency of the vdH over the competing cartridge on certain classical and jazz recordings.

On Cessaro Zetas and YG (Sonja, I think) I have never preferred the vdH over the competing cartridge.

 

[Tango]

There are lots of different brands of 12AX7/ECC83 (Amperex, Siemens Halske, Mullard, etc.) each with their own sonic characteristics. Telefunkens are well thought of - very clear sounding with neutral tone, maybe a teeny bit light in the bass.

I have tried most of them. You are right about the Tele's bass. Tiny bit light but tight. I like the Mullard too although it is less accurate in presentation. Heavier bass with Mullard 10M. Peter's Vitavox and his room has strong bass so I recommended. You are getting very good listening videos btw.

 

[rando]

Mehta / Planets

View attachment 96667

This makes no sense to me. Presumably same content as Video A with different cartridge. Google does like to block things ...

I believe the most proficient solution is for Peter to make his video private and avoid the issue altogether. This is what one might call a warning shot off the bow.

Setting them to private would have no impact on ability to share them here with all 15 viewers.

 

[ddk]

Unfortunately there are many tubes that have a genuine diamond and are fake 12AX7 - the factory that made them also made other similar double triodes with the molded diamond. I read that another critical parameter is pin diameter - fakes usually have thinner pins. I have seen tubes where the diamond was simply etched by laser engraving - it is grooved, not molded! But it would pass in a casual inspection.

At this time the more frequent Telefunken 12AX7's are pulled from old equipment and although the tube is supposed to last for 10000 hours , they can be at the end of their life and measure perfectly.

Everyone I knew was pulling 12ax7 tubes out of Fisher, Scott, etc. even in the 80’s not sure how many good ones are left today. My own experience with so called NOS Tele ones has been very mixed, too many fakes that come with the diamond and silk screened with fake Fisher logo visually indistinguishable from the originals, the only way to know what you’re getting is by listening. Good news is that most fakes aren’t that bad sounding. The one that I don’t get are the so called super Tele with gold pins going for very high prices, I never found a reference to them in any tube catalog nor do they sound anything like a Telefunken.

david

 

[DasguteOhr]

Ecc83 from telefunken never had goldpins, the only two tubes with goldpins is Ecc 803s or (ECC 808 pindifferent)only made in ulm,germany. the code beginns with U and six or seven numbers( week,month years production)

 

[rando]

I made it private but it still does not show up. I will try to make another video of the same thing and try that.

You should erase the blocked one and upload the same video as private. No need to make another.

 

[PeterA]

You should erase the blocked one and upload the same video as private. No need to make another.

I did this last night and it got blocked again. I even changed the name by removing the reference to the music which is why it is simply called Video B. I think I have to record and then upload a different video. We'll see if it works or not.

 

[cdk84]

While I have yet to hear the new Ortofon cartridge in Peter's system, I Have heard the Technics 205C--3X MM compared to the vdc MC and though the Technics may not be on a level with the Ortofon, distinctions are very easy to perceive.

The process of comparing makes an assessment of cartridges very useful; the revealing and highly resolving nature of the AS2000 makes the process of comparison even more viable.

Peter is to be lauded for offering these videos, not only for affording others the opportunity to see and hear the AS2000, but because this string has underscored the value of YouTube videos as a research, if not a diagnostic, tool for evaluating cartridges, which has heretofore been one of the hardest aspects of matching within a playback system.

I look forward very much to hearing the Ortofon in Peter's system as soon as he gets back ashore...

 

[PeterA]

Thank you for posting these videos, Peter!

I preferred C (Ortofon) over D (vdH). I found the vdH to have just a little bit too much treble energy.

PS: The interesting thing for me is that it is more difficult for me to detect the greater treble energy issue I have with vdH cartridges on vintage speakers than on contemporary speakers. To my ears the flatter frequency response of contemporary loudspeakers (or maybe it is my perception of a tipped-up frequency response of contemporary loudspeakers?) is not a good match for what I perceive from the vdH as greater treble energy.

You described accurately exactly what I have heard from comparisons on systems (with both vintage loudspeakers and contemporary loudspeakers) between vdH cartridges and other cartridges:

“[the non-vdH cartridge] has a deeper richer tone while the [vdH cartridge] has just slightly higher resolution with a bit more detail on the leading edges and a slightly better sense of the recording ambience.”

This is all, of course, purely subjective, personal preference, but I am a single issue voter: I will generally prefer “deeper, richer tone” in any comparison.

On Tannoy Westminsters and on JBL Hartsfields I preferred the resolution and transparency of the vdH over the competing cartridge on certain classical and jazz recordings.

On Cessaro Zetas and YG (Sonja, I think) I have never preferred the vdH over the competing cartridge.

You are most welcome, Ron. I am not surprised that you prefer the vintage cartridge. The question for me is always this: does the system, or a component sound balanced. Do you thing modern speakers really have a flatter frequency response, or are their tweeters tipped up, or are vintage speakers rolled off? Can one generalize? These are questions that are best answered by listening in a given context and making comparisons.

You had a strong impression of Magico speakers. Then you heard my system and that impression changed. It is all about context and system building. I directly compared these later Colibris to the Lyra Atlas and Opus 1 in my system and preferred the vdH. I compared my vdH to an Atlas Lambda in another system and preferred the vdH. I think you would prefer the Opus 1 based on what you have written and told me.

I agree that all of this is subjective and that we choose what we like. I look for natural resolution above all else. I have heard cartridges with deeper and richer tone, but they lacked resolution so I did not like them enough. Deep rich tone is not enough for me. Until this vintage Ortofon, and to a lesser extent, the vintage Technics MM, came along, I did not hear any cartridge in either of my systems that I preferred to these Colibris. The Opus 1 came fairly close. These vintage ones now are a good compliment for the Colibris in my system.

 

[PeterA]

Here we can try again with the two Holst Planets Uranus videos.

Video A:

Video B:

 

[PeterA]

And for @bonzo75 , here are two videos of Bach solo violin. He recommended this wonderful recording to me: Bach's Chaconne played by Kuijken on Harmonia Mundi, DHL 20401.03

Video A:

Video B: