My room treatment journey.

Hi,

I've researched different companies from Acoustic Fields (Dennis Foley) to Verbox, Sonitus and Artnovian.
The spectrum represents the balance between practicality, cost effectiveness, looks and effectiveness of the products.
Acoustic Fields sells bulky and expensive furniture going to very low frequencies. Not very transparent in communication and looks not very cost effective to me. Based on the number of those bulky boxes I would need, I would be better off getting 4 subs and placing them around the room: both cheaper and takes less space and has better looks.
The other end of the spectrum is Artnovian. Their 60mm thick panels look good, but don't absorb well below 300Hz:

Artnovion Acoustics - Hi-Fi & Living Room

Design your ultimate Home Cinema, Hifi room or Media room, with our collection of acoustic treatment solutions.

www.artnovion.com

I went to a demo room with $180,000 worth of equipment and $6,000 worth of room treatment and the sound was not good even for my unsophisticated ears. They guy also mentioned spending $3000 on the carpet as part of the room treatment, which shows their level of knowledge in the area.
They would not let me measure the room response using REW. It appears they are focused on selling expensive hardware and when I spoke to them about room treatment they kept moving towards expensive processors and the like.

In the middle range is Verbox and Sonitus. The first one only sells absorbers, their ultra option claims to go to 100Hz:

V Panel – Verbox

The V Panel is a high quality, broadband frequency absorber made from high density, 100% allergy and irritant free polyester insulation covered with a durable yet breathable cotton drill fabric. They are designed to minimise room reflections and reverberation in a space to create a more...

verbox.com.au

Which is good enough to sort out the rest with subwoofers. The problem is, they don't have any independent tests and can't provide the entire solution. So far the sweet spot to me is Sonitus. On their US website you can select a pre-built setup for a certain room size and level of sound quality you want. I've attached the setup screenshot, as the link would not work. There is a problem though. Their most powerful absorber (Legato 12) only goes to 200Hz at .8 absorption coefficient, leaving a gap between 100Hz and 200Hz. Also, I am not convinced that the bass traps in the two front corners would be enough, given the small area they cover. I could not find a single demo room in Sydney which was properly treated and in which I could measure the room response or the shop would have such measurement.

So far I am considering combining Sonitus set with some Ultra panels from Verbox to fix the gap. I am also considering addressing below 100Hz range with additional subs and building a bass traps in my riser which is 305mm thick. The problem with the last option is that I could not find an expert for designing the bass trap in the riser. All I know is you need to fill it with insulation and make ventilation holes to allow the sound in. I have not idea on where to put those holes, how big and how many.

Any ideas? What was your room treatment journey?

Thanks.

 

Hi Ron,

I just received the double 18" a few weeks ago after a nearly two year wait. Brindle Bamboo veneer and a piano gloss finish. I love it!

Cheers!

~ W

 

Congratulations!

It looks beautiful, Ward! I'm sure it rocks the house!

 

A little belated, but on dealing with room acoustics, J. Peter Moncrief’s extensive original research into the subject in his IAR Hotline from long ago are worth a read:

Your Room: The Final Link - TubeTraps Fix Room Acoustics

Your Room: The Final Link! Learn about the bass trap with a built in diffuser that revolutionized small room stereo sound reproduction.

www.acousticsciences.com

Optimizing ASC TubeTraps - Acoustic Sciences Corporation

Optimizing ASC TubeTraps. Learn how to optimize the sonics of your room. Create a 2C3D listening space with your stereo system.

www.acousticsciences.com

 

A little belated, but on dealing with room acoustics, J. Peter Moncrief’s extensive original research into the subject in his IAR Hotline from long ago are worth a read:

Your Room: The Final Link - TubeTraps Fix Room Acoustics

Your Room: The Final Link! Learn about the bass trap with a built in diffuser that revolutionized small room stereo sound reproduction.

www.acousticsciences.com

Optimizing ASC TubeTraps - Acoustic Sciences Corporation

Optimizing ASC TubeTraps. Learn how to optimize the sonics of your room. Create a 2C3D listening space with your stereo system.

www.acousticsciences.com

Sold my ASC tube traps when I heard how much better the DHDI ZR acoustics panels were.

 

Look like for a sound studio or perhaps a dedicated listening room or home theater, since there aren’t any photos of home systems on their site.

 

Look like for a sound studio or perhaps a dedicated listening room or home theater, since there aren’t any photos of home systems on their site.

If you are referring to the DHDI ZR Acoustics site you are correct - the technology/panels were developed for and are used primarily in pro audio and the company does not actively market to home audio users. I came across a Stereophile review (link below) of their use in a home listening room and bought a few to test against conventional room treatments in my dedicated listening room (photo below). As I've described extensively at this forum they are dramatically better than all of the conventional absorbers, diffusors, and traps I've tried, yet integrate nicely with conventional panels (a good thing since I can't afford to outfit all of the walls with them).

The Fifth Element #90

As a film title, Quantizing Hanson Hsu might not rank up there with Kissing Jessica Stein, but we work with what we have to work with. Hanson Hsu is the principal designer at Delta H Design, Inc., an acoustics and architecture firm based in Marina del Rey, California. Though he dabbles in some...

www.stereophile.com

 

Those articles are from 1985 and there’s a lot of presumably decent choices that have come on the market since then. You have a nice room. A lot of us have different kinds of rooms and preferences that wouldn’t support what you’ve done. I was using Acoustimac for price, but their corner bass trap is absorption only, while it’s now clear that I need dispersion too. I was aware of ASC and came across them at the recent Pacific Audio Fest in Seattle. That led to picking up a pair of their 13” tube demos, with another pair on the way to replace the Acoutimacs. Interestingly, because of the angled shape of my living room listening setup they suggested putting the traps immediately to the outside of my speakers (ATC SCM50 ASLT), which has worked marvelously (exact placement and rotation being key).

 

Those articles are from 1985 and there’s a lot of presumably decent choices that have come on the market since then. You have a nice room. A lot of us have different kinds of rooms and preferences that wouldn’t support what you’ve done. I was using Acoustimac for price, but their corner bass trap is absorption only, while it’s now clear that I need dispersion too. I was aware of ASC and came across them at the recent Pacific Audio Fest in Seattle. That led to picking up a pair of their 13” tube demos, with another pair on the way to replace the Acoutimacs. Interestingly, because of the angled shape of my living room listening setup they suggested putting the traps immediately to the outside of my speakers (ATC SCM50 ASLT), which has worked marvelously (exact placement and rotation being key).

There is no basis for nor any evidence to support your statement above that ".....A lot of us have different kinds of rooms and preferences that wouldn’t support what you’ve done". There is nothing about the ZR panels that would make them unsuitable for any particular room, which is clear from the photos of the large number of differently shaped and sized pro studios where they have been used (see: https://deltahdesign.com/portfolio/).

There are some things that could be accurately stated about the ZR panels (since I am the only poster to deploy them) - things like no one has tried them in a large listening room, or with very tall speakers, subwoofers, or dipoles. Note that I am not using them with small studio monitors. My Bache speakers are three-way augmented wide band floor standers that are "flat" to 34 hz.

It is also not about preferences. You cannot prefer one thing over another without having tried both. The reality is that DHDI's ZR technology works very differently from the conventional room treatments that so many of us have used and understood for decades. People can't "get their heads around" the explanations that DHDI offers and many don't like the analogy with quantum mechanics. So they are skeptical and unwilling to take the risk necessary to try them as I did. It is as simple as that. Not a criticism - human nature to stick with the familiar and "circle the wagons" when faced with the new and different.

 

I think you’re more than a little carried away. I’ll leave it at that.

 

You know what you can do with your "more than a little carried away".

I'll leave it at that.

 

Good evening, gentlemen. Every room is different. Every system is different. Every observation of both can be vastly different.

Tom

 

Good evening, gentlemen. Every room is different. Every system is different. Every observation of both can be vastly different.

Tom

A sensible sentiment. However observations made in the absence of any direct experience are just speculation, and telling someone with extensive direct experience with something that their observations reflect being "carried away", when you have no experience with that thing will always be offensive...and will always elicit the same response from me.

 

Hi,

I've researched different companies from Acoustic Fields (Dennis Foley) to Verbox, Sonitus and Artnovian.
The spectrum represents the balance between practicality, cost effectiveness, looks and effectiveness of the products.
Acoustic Fields sells bulky and expensive furniture going to very low frequencies. Not very transparent in communication and looks not very cost effective to me. Based on the number of those bulky boxes I would need, I would be better off getting 4 subs and placing them around the room: both cheaper and takes less space and has better looks.
The other end of the spectrum is Artnovian. Their 60mm thick panels look good, but don't absorb well below 300Hz:

Artnovion Acoustics - Hi-Fi & Living Room

Design your ultimate Home Cinema, Hifi room or Media room, with our collection of acoustic treatment solutions.

www.artnovion.com

I went to a demo room with $180,000 worth of equipment and $6,000 worth of room treatment and the sound was not good even for my unsophisticated ears. They guy also mentioned spending $3000 on the carpet as part of the room treatment, which shows their level of knowledge in the area.
They would not let me measure the room response using REW. It appears they are focused on selling expensive hardware and when I spoke to them about room treatment they kept moving towards expensive processors and the like.

In the middle range is Verbox and Sonitus. The first one only sells absorbers, their ultra option claims to go to 100Hz:

V Panel – Verbox

The V Panel is a high quality, broadband frequency absorber made from high density, 100% allergy and irritant free polyester insulation covered with a durable yet breathable cotton drill fabric. They are designed to minimise room reflections and reverberation in a space to create a more...

verbox.com.au

Which is good enough to sort out the rest with subwoofers. The problem is, they don't have any independent tests and can't provide the entire solution. So far the sweet spot to me is Sonitus. On their US website you can select a pre-built setup for a certain room size and level of sound quality you want. I've attached the setup screenshot, as the link would not work. There is a problem though. Their most powerful absorber (Legato 12) only goes to 200Hz at .8 absorption coefficient, leaving a gap between 100Hz and 200Hz. Also, I am not convinced that the bass traps in the two front corners would be enough, given the small area they cover. I could not find a single demo room in Sydney which was properly treated and in which I could measure the room response or the shop would have such measurement.

So far I am considering combining Sonitus set with some Ultra panels from Verbox to fix the gap. I am also considering addressing below 100Hz range with additional subs and building a bass traps in my riser which is 305mm thick. The problem with the last option is that I could not find an expert for designing the bass trap in the riser. All I know is you need to fill it with insulation and make ventilation holes to allow the sound in. I have not idea on where to put those holes, how big and how many.

Any ideas? What was your room treatment journey?

Thanks.

I both fortunately and unfortunately went down the path of Acoustic Fields (you can read the WBF forums about "him." The fortunate thing is the wall construction with built-in bass traps (4 chambered activated carbon filters as in Gordon J. Holt theorized he wanted in a listening room). My room has no bass problems with 6-12" woofers in my full range dynamic speakers, going down to a reported 13 Hz (more like 20's). So, that part of the cost was worth it.

 

Hi,

I've researched different companies from Acoustic Fields (Dennis Foley) to Verbox, Sonitus and Artnovian.
The spectrum represents the balance between practicality, cost effectiveness, looks and effectiveness of the products.
Acoustic Fields sells bulky and expensive furniture going to very low frequencies. Not very transparent in communication and looks not very cost effective to me. Based on the number of those bulky boxes I would need, I would be better off getting 4 subs and placing them around the room: both cheaper and takes less space and has better looks.
The other end of the spectrum is Artnovian. Their 60mm thick panels look good, but don't absorb well below 300Hz:

Artnovion Acoustics - Hi-Fi & Living Room

Design your ultimate Home Cinema, Hifi room or Media room, with our collection of acoustic treatment solutions.

www.artnovion.com

I went to a demo room with $180,000 worth of equipment and $6,000 worth of room treatment and the sound was not good even for my unsophisticated ears. They guy also mentioned spending $3000 on the carpet as part of the room treatment, which shows their level of knowledge in the area.
They would not let me measure the room response using REW. It appears they are focused on selling expensive hardware and when I spoke to them about room treatment they kept moving towards expensive processors and the like.

In the middle range is Verbox and Sonitus. The first one only sells absorbers, their ultra option claims to go to 100Hz:

V Panel – Verbox

The V Panel is a high quality, broadband frequency absorber made from high density, 100% allergy and irritant free polyester insulation covered with a durable yet breathable cotton drill fabric. They are designed to minimise room reflections and reverberation in a space to create a more...

verbox.com.au

Which is good enough to sort out the rest with subwoofers. The problem is, they don't have any independent tests and can't provide the entire solution. So far the sweet spot to me is Sonitus. On their US website you can select a pre-built setup for a certain room size and level of sound quality you want. I've attached the setup screenshot, as the link would not work. There is a problem though. Their most powerful absorber (Legato 12) only goes to 200Hz at .8 absorption coefficient, leaving a gap between 100Hz and 200Hz. Also, I am not convinced that the bass traps in the two front corners would be enough, given the small area they cover. I could not find a single demo room in Sydney which was properly treated and in which I could measure the room response or the shop would have such measurement.

So far I am considering combining Sonitus set with some Ultra panels from Verbox to fix the gap. I am also considering addressing below 100Hz range with additional subs and building a bass traps in my riser which is 305mm thick. The problem with the last option is that I could not find an expert for designing the bass trap in the riser. All I know is you need to fill it with insulation and make ventilation holes to allow the sound in. I have not idea on where to put those holes, how big and how many.

Any ideas? What was your room treatment journey?

Thanks.

I used diaphragm made out of barium loaded vinyl sheets (2lb/sq ft). I hung 2x4ft sheets like curtains so that they can move freely. The movement converts acoustic energy into mechanical energy.
I had two of them. They are very effective even below 100hz. And small.
I stuffed unopened rolls of building fiberglass from home depot into 18inch diameter sonotubes for low mid range.

 

It seems there is a lot of guessing going on here. To treat a room properly for acoustics requires a scientific approach. You need to know the existing characteristics, the desired characteristics, and the difference between the two for reverberation times, signal to noise, room modes, room volume, etc. In addition, you need to know the constraints for budget, décor, physical, etc. From there, computer modeling is needed to discover what types of treatments, their effective locations, and their quantities. After taking objective measurements, fine tuning should be done by ear.

Nowadays, I can get about 80% there by having my client take an impulse test and emailing the WAV file to me, saving a lot of money and time over me going.

 

As earlier said I took professional help. I have always believed in taking in experts when I lack knowledge. If you look in one of my earlier post you can see a picture of my room.

The Attached files shows part of the report Hofa Germany provided me. Before and after treatment.

My listening room is not dedicated. It’s our living room which also is part of our dining room which is part of our kitchen…. So one big room with needs to compromise. For example furniture and our old tail oven. So no free hands to Hofa.…..

My listening “corner” is 6,7 meter long, 4,7 meter wide and 3,2 meter to the ceiling. Floor concrete slab. 25 cm thick. From one side (living room) to the other side (kitchen) it’s close to 14 meter. So a huge volume. In the way Hofa measured the room they came to 72 m2.

If anyone has comments please don’t hesitate.

Gunnar

 

Before even building the listening room in 2015, I used 4 consultants, all well known and widely respected. The best were Acustica Applicata and Acoustic Sciences (Art Noxon). Their products are not cheap, but just plain work, I have both.
I did not use Norm Varney, but his advice seems wise.He helped me a long time ago on an hvac noise issue, and knows his stuff.

 

It is interesting that you worked with multiple consultants. Did each of them prescribe substantially the same solution for whatever acoustic anomalies they found?

 

I do not claim to have a perfect listening room acoustic environment. However, the improvement over my prior room which used more of the commonly used techniques for creating a good listening room is immense. I suspect my prior listening room of 28 years which had a 6" 3000 psi steel reinforced concrete floor, 11'6" ceiling, 8" plate with staggered 2 X 6" studs every 8" and both 5/8" drywall and 5/8" soundboard, carpeted was better at sound isolation than for listening. My current room details can be found at Audiogon under Fleschler. Sure, it cost a lot but transformed my listening experience into high end system quality. My cable manufacturing friend heard it for the first time in 2019 and was stunned at the improvement, shear musicality. Yet, it hasn't been tested and measured since the initial two consultants gave their opinion (and one's design details). Kudos to those with less limited funds and/or more time/knowledge to explore perfection in building their listening rooms.

 

Living in SW Montana, it’s not been easy coming up with someone to do the sort of serious analysis being discussed here. Like Gunnar, I may have to search a few hours away.