My Munich 2016 notes

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#1
Hi all, here are some notes from Munich. I was giving audiophile bill, who was back in London a live commentary on whatsapp, and quickly pulled up my comments to jot down these notes - just edited them to make them more forum friendly.

My demo LPs were to start with Scheherazade 4th movement which is very dynamic. Then Artur Rubinstein RCA Victor Beethoven's emperor first movement. Bruch Scottish fantasia for violin. If allowed to play more Winterreise and Scheherazade second movement. My notes are based on when I played my demo tracks, and not on audiophile show stuff. Show conditions are unfair, so there is not much you can say unless you can compare, at best you can choose to like things to pursue.

  • I was in Munich over a two day period. Since this is my third trip in successive years, I have been through most rooms, and had come this year mainly to listen to the western electric and some analog.

  • The WE disappointed, this year they had some 11a (he brings in new ones each year from his museum) and these were nothing like the previous ones. So that gave me more time for the rest.

  • I then first heard AMG with aesthetix atlas hybrids and verity, and compared it to the aesthetix romulus and the TT was much better.
  • Then brinkmann spyder and Wilson Sasha with audio research. Pre was some other company had an A to D built in. AR 150SE as usual sounding great till orchestra starts
  • Then went to kaiser kawero with kondo g1000 which is much costlier and supposedly better than m1000. With kondo TT, arm and cart. Took out the Artur Rubinstein. Bummer. Super low resolution on the rubinstein. No dynamics. Scheherazade. Nothing.
  • Also went to the Goebbel with the kronos and zyx omega premium. Didn't like the tone, left.
  • Then I went to the horns autotec room and that had the best sound till then, on some small tt with ortofon a95. Best tone and realism till now. Natural. Dynamics, detail, and fit into medium sized rooms, perfect for a central London room. Need to listen to them in a proper set up to see how good they sound on bass and what are their limitations. Were running on 12 watts, amps from cube audio, EL84 valves.

  • Oh yes, best was audio note room, because they had a live cellist playing with the music. Small room, 7 to 8 chairs. Lovely. They played cello solo and the cellist played along. Nothing to do with the gear.
  • Tune Audio Anima were sounding awesome with the Trafomatic 75w valve amps, but think those amps retail at some 120k. But wow what timbre. This was also probably the only room without treatments, and that was also playing low quality recordings from Zep and ACDC
  • JMF audio good midrange, didn't like on classical, more of that audio note tannoy boxy sound on sensitive speakers. Not for me.

    Digital vs Analog
    - To paraphrase Amir, do the digital guys promise to behave if I publish my findings? :p
  • Vpi avenger with some ortofon quintet black cart beating the dcs Rossini silly.
  • Continuum making neolith sound better than in London. Giving it weight and slam, but edited.
  • Magico s5 with constellation sounding very good, where feickert blackbird with etna beat the edits out of spectral CD 4000. Which I bet must be a good player otherwise. I have not been a fan of magico, but these new ones are good, Marty had mentioned that too, they are bringing in the M project technology into the smaller ones.
  • AF2 was superb, blew out the ch precision cdp in the vivid G1 ch precision electronics room. And CHP cd player is actually quite good. Funny enough, the guy there told me weren't you here last year, but that you were playing CDs. Wow. What memory.

    The AF2 transformed this system like the AF1 had transformed Steve's. And to think DDK has 3 - 4 turntables better than this.

  • Stenheim was sounding excellent with the viola amps and zensati but couldn't play my music as it was digitally streamed. However I heard the small stenheims (94 dB) with a direct drive TT called audio consulting, a Swiss brand. All audio consulting electronics, a swiss company. This was the fastest and most dynamic of all rooms. Scheherazade 4th movement was on steroids, I felt like doing violent cardio exercises.
  • The designer explained everything was on battery hence it was so fast. I moved to the Nagra digital which retained the speed and dynamism, thus that seemed to be a characteristic of electronics. Is this for real, or is it doing artificial. Proper demo can tell. Some metallic sound in piano and SS on vocals but these things also happen under show conditions, but definitely worth pursuing. The Nagra digital was beaten by another TT set up in the Wilson room, though forget the TT. Probably the trans rotor or Thorens 905, confused with notes now.
  • The kronos pro with zyx universe premium and absolare into Rockport Altair sounded good, but room was challenging. The absolare integrated hybrid is doing 200w class A. I heard 4 or 5 kronos.
 
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bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#2
To summarize, the smaller stenheims and Horns autotec are potential purchase choices for small to medium sized rooms (needs further auditions in proper settings), unless one can get a decent sized room for big apogees or big horns. Feickert Firebird seems pretty good for the price.
 

Harlequin

New Member
Jul 30, 2013
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#3
To summarise, Highly biased subjective considerations, via remote drone, may prove problematical, as an empirical methodology in assessing various boxes filled with wires and other sundry bits, somewhere within Central Europe.

Nosce te ipsum!
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
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#4
Bonzo, Thanks for your report. Was the VPI Avenger with the Ortofon cartridge a direct comparison with the Rossini, that is, in the same system? And if so, could you describe how it was better, and how they sounded different from each other?

Also, did you hear the new Magico M3 speakers? I have not found any reports of those being at Munich.
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#5
Yes, same system. All analog digital are AB comparisons. I didn't see the M3 anywhere. The S5 were sounding good, and I have heard S3 S5 Q5 in proper set ups and Q3 at shows.

Better is better. More timbre, more dynamics, real sounding great soundstage, involving, pleasant, rounded.
 
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bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#7
The first is the Tune Audio Anima and Trafomatic pic. Second is the horns autotech room. Again a small room - the 15 inch woofer go below 300hz, from 300 - 3.2k it is the midrange
 

Attachments

Jan 16, 2013
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#8
Bonzo, Thanks for your report. Was the VPI Avenger with the Ortofon cartridge a direct comparison with the Rossini, that is, in the same system? And if so, could you describe how it was better, and how they sounded different from each other?

Also, did you hear the new Magico M3 speakers? I have not found any reports of those being at Munich.
Just to make sure that people reading this thread do not get confused, the new M3 Magico speakers were just announced two weeks ago. First deliveries are scheduled for Q3 2016. The MPros and the S5II's were at the show in different rooms. There were no M3's at the show, the only M3's are at the Magico factory at this point in time.

Also regarding Bonzo's comments regarding the Kaiser/Kondo room -

"Then went to kaiser kawero with kondo g1000 which is much costlier and supposedly better than m1000. With kondo TT, arm and cart. Took out the Artur Rubinstein. Bummer. Super low resolution on the rubinstein. No dynamics. Scheherazade. Nothing."

Again to make sure anyone reading this hears the complete story as to not be confused by one person's opinion, I worked in the Kondo/Kaiser room for four full days. I exaggerate not 1% with this comment- Over the course of four days, there were somewhere between 20 and 30 times (I can't be specific, sorry) after the playing of mostly classical pieces with 40+ people in the room, at the end of the selection, a united clapping session of approval after the piece had finished. Not being in other rooms I cannot say how much this happened, I am sure many times in many rooms, although it definitely happened in this room, I experienced it.

Also working in the room, not once solicited but I was on the receiving end of "thank you so much" I/we enjoyed this room as well as any room that we entered at the show. There were also so many (maybe 200+) people who just muttered "best sound" as they got up and left.

Now, I am totally biased in my opinion as I represent both Kondo and Kaiser in the US, all I am saying here is what I observed and experienced, nothing to do with what I thought of the room or sound. I understand about producing sound at shows and all that it entails, I enjoy the shows for the interaction with designers, ,dealers, customers and manufactures, learning about new concepts and products, but that's just me, others prefer to "judge the sound" in a convention center or a hotel, that's fine, it is their prerogative. I respect everyone's opinion, although in this case a reader might have gone away with the damming impression of this particular room and I felt it justified to tell "the other side of the story".

I apologize if I offend anyone with my comments, all the best.
 

audioblazer

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May 14, 2010
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#9
I m with u on this . I like what I heard this year & I like what I heard last year with the uber price silver duelund crossover . It's definitely bigger sounding that some big system. In a show we can only hear its potential & not necesarry it's real capability
 
#10
Just to make sure that people reading this thread do not get confused, the new M3 Magico speakers were just announced two weeks ago. First deliveries are scheduled for Q3 2016. The MPros and the S5II's were at the show in different rooms. There were no M3's at the show, the only M3's are at the Magico factory at this point in time.

Also regarding Bonzo's comments regarding the Kaiser/Kondo room -

"Then went to kaiser kawero with kondo g1000 which is much costlier and supposedly better than m1000. With kondo TT, arm and cart. Took out the Artur Rubinstein. Bummer. Super low resolution on the rubinstein. No dynamics. Scheherazade. Nothing."

Again to make sure anyone reading this hears the complete story as to not be confused by one person's opinion, I worked in the Kondo/Kaiser room for four full days. I exaggerate not 1% with this comment- Over the course of four days, there were somewhere between 20 and 30 times (I can't be specific, sorry) after the playing of mostly classical pieces with 40+ people in the room, at the end of the selection, a united clapping session of approval after the piece had finished. Not being in other rooms I cannot say how much this happened, I am sure many times in many rooms, although it definitely happened in this room, I experienced it.

Also working in the room, not once solicited but I was on the receiving end of "thank you so much" I/we enjoyed this room as well as any room that we entered at the show. There were also so many (maybe 200+) people who just muttered "best sound" as they got up and left.

Now, I am totally biased in my opinion as I represent both Kondo and Kaiser in the US, all I am saying here is what I observed and experienced, nothing to do with what I thought of the room or sound. I understand about producing sound at shows and all that it entails, I enjoy the shows for the interaction with designers, ,dealers, customers and manufactures, learning about new concepts and products, but that's just me, others prefer to "judge the sound" in a convention center or a hotel, that's fine, it is their prerogative. I respect everyone's opinion, although in this case a reader might have gone away with the damming impression of this particular room and I felt it justified to tell "the other side of the story".

I apologize if I offend anyone with my comments, all the best.

I visited this room several times and agree that it sounded wonderful, what I heard was not overtly analytical like many room but simply music.

_DSC5722.jpg _DSC5727.jpg _DSC5717.jpg _DSC5724.jpg _DSC5725.jpg
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#11
Please note disclaimer in my post: " Show conditions are unfair, so there is not much you can say unless you can compare, at best you can choose to like things to pursue." I am sure the gear is good, but the show room was not. The low resolution actually points to the set up more than the gear, really. Because I have heard up close M7 and other Kondo amps of much lower quality comparatively of the same brand and they have been fine.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
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#12
Just to make sure that people reading this thread do not get confused, the new M3 Magico speakers were just announced two weeks ago. First deliveries are scheduled for Q3 2016. The MPros and the S5II's were at the show in different rooms. There were no M3's at the show, the only M3's are at the Magico factory at this point in time.

Also regarding Bonzo's comments regarding the Kaiser/Kondo room -

"Then went to kaiser kawero with kondo g1000 which is much costlier and supposedly better than m1000. With kondo TT, arm and cart. Took out the Artur Rubinstein. Bummer. Super low resolution on the rubinstein. No dynamics. Scheherazade. Nothing."

Again to make sure anyone reading this hears the complete story as to not be confused by one person's opinion, I worked in the Kondo/Kaiser room for four full days. I exaggerate not 1% with this comment- Over the course of four days, there were somewhere between 20 and 30 times (I can't be specific, sorry) after the playing of mostly classical pieces with 40+ people in the room, at the end of the selection, a united clapping session of approval after the piece had finished. Not being in other rooms I cannot say how much this happened, I am sure many times in many rooms, although it definitely happened in this room, I experienced it.

Also working in the room, not once solicited but I was on the receiving end of "thank you so much" I/we enjoyed this room as well as any room that we entered at the show. There were also so many (maybe 200+) people who just muttered "best sound" as they got up and left.

Now, I am totally biased in my opinion as I represent both Kondo and Kaiser in the US, all I am saying here is what I observed and experienced, nothing to do with what I thought of the room or sound. I understand about producing sound at shows and all that it entails, I enjoy the shows for the interaction with designers, ,dealers, customers and manufactures, learning about new concepts and products, but that's just me, others prefer to "judge the sound" in a convention center or a hotel, that's fine, it is their prerogative. I respect everyone's opinion, although in this case a reader might have gone away with the damming impression of this particular room and I felt it justified to tell "the other side of the story".

I apologize if I offend anyone with my comments, all the best.
Well, I gotta go with Bonzo on this one. I too thought the Kondo/Kaiser room a huge disappointment...especially when one takes price into consideration. The other room with all Kondo kit, and Living Voice speakers, was world's apart...and sadly world's better.
 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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North Shore of Boston
#13
Just to make sure that people reading this thread do not get confused, the new M3 Magico speakers were just announced two weeks ago. First deliveries are scheduled for Q3 2016. The MPros and the S5II's were at the show in different rooms. There were no M3's at the show, the only M3's are at the Magico factory at this point in time.
Thanks, rvisinta. I thought I had read somewhere that the Magico M3 would be debuted in Munich. I must have been mistaken. Do you know when and where they will have their first public demonstration?
 

gian60

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Apr 17, 2016
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#14
Ciao Bonzo,

seems we have similar taste,
among the best rooms i liked a lot small stenheim,even if 50.000 euro plus vat is a lot,and Autoteck.
About Kondo/Kawero,the speaker was too small in that big room and not perfect match wich Kondo,for my taste.
I have Audio note/Kondo since 25 years,and their dynamic and natural sound is very good.
Ciao
Gianluigi
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#15
Ciao Bonzo,

seems we have similar taste,
among the best rooms i liked a lot small stenheim,even if 50.000 euro plus vat is a lot,and Autoteck.
About Kondo/Kawero,the speaker was too small in that big room and not perfect match wich Kondo,for my taste.
I have Audio note/Kondo since 25 years,and their dynamic and natural sound is very good.
Ciao
Gianluigi
Have you heard those two speakers outside show conditions?
 

gian60

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2016
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#16
never because are not imported in Italy,but i have very good impression in the show

Do you like TAD CR1?
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#17
never because are not imported in Italy,but i have very good impression in the show

Do you like TAD CR1?
It's quite good for its size. but if the small Stenheim does what it promised at the show, I think it can blow away all of that cone speaker category - wilson, magico, vivid, TAD, etc.
 

sujay

Member Sponsor
May 5, 2012
273
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Singapore
#18
Just to make sure that people reading this thread do not get confused, the new M3 Magico speakers were just announced two weeks ago. First deliveries are scheduled for Q3 2016. The MPros and the S5II's were at the show in different rooms. There were no M3's at the show, the only M3's are at the Magico factory at this point in time.

Also regarding Bonzo's comments regarding the Kaiser/Kondo room -

"Then went to kaiser kawero with kondo g1000 which is much costlier and supposedly better than m1000. With kondo TT, arm and cart. Took out the Artur Rubinstein. Bummer. Super low resolution on the rubinstein. No dynamics. Scheherazade. Nothing."

Again to make sure anyone reading this hears the complete story as to not be confused by one person's opinion, I worked in the Kondo/Kaiser room for four full days. I exaggerate not 1% with this comment- Over the course of four days, there were somewhere between 20 and 30 times (I can't be specific, sorry) after the playing of mostly classical pieces with 40+ people in the room, at the end of the selection, a united clapping session of approval after the piece had finished. Not being in other rooms I cannot say how much this happened, I am sure many times in many rooms, although it definitely happened in this room, I experienced it.

Also working in the room, not once solicited but I was on the receiving end of "thank you so much" I/we enjoyed this room as well as any room that we entered at the show. There were also so many (maybe 200+) people who just muttered "best sound" as they got up and left.

Now, I am totally biased in my opinion as I represent both Kondo and Kaiser in the US, all I am saying here is what I observed and experienced, nothing to do with what I thought of the room or sound. I understand about producing sound at shows and all that it entails, I enjoy the shows for the interaction with designers, ,dealers, customers and manufactures, learning about new concepts and products, but that's just me, others prefer to "judge the sound" in a convention center or a hotel, that's fine, it is their prerogative. I respect everyone's opinion, although in this case a reader might have gone away with the damming impression of this particular room and I felt it justified to tell "the other side of the story".

I apologize if I offend anyone with my comments, all the best.

Hi, I actually visited this room twice...... It sounded nice and I am truly biased towards the Kawero. I think they are brilliant speakers. But in all honesty, they sounded far better last year ( don't remember what was driving them) than this year. Not sure whether the speakers used last year were the same....If my memory serves me right, last year they played the Kawero Classic?? But definitely I liked the presentation last year more! Maybe it was to do with the electronics.

Cheers

Sujay
 

sujay

Member Sponsor
May 5, 2012
273
10
18
Singapore
#19
never because are not imported in Italy,but i have very good impression in the show

Do you like TAD CR1?
The TAD compact evolution smokes them all.....in fact they are good enough to best floorstanders of repute. In fact, I think just to prove the point they were playing large scale orchestral pieces through the compact evolutions, and they sounded nothing short of astounding to me! I didn't hear the CR1s but I guess they will be in another league altogether, if partnered with the right electronics

Cheers
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
9,009
105
63
London
#20
Ciao Bonzo,

seems we have similar taste,
among the best rooms i liked a lot small stenheim,even if 50.000 euro plus vat is a lot,and Autoteck.
About Kondo/Kawero,the speaker was too small in that big room and not perfect match wich Kondo,for my taste.
I have Audio note/Kondo since 25 years,and their dynamic and natural sound is very good.
Ciao
Gianluigi
Glad to know you liked Autotec. Many people dismissed those horns as they were in a small room, seems like you, Morricab and I did take the trouble. Very natural sound on acoustic classical
 

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