Martin-Logan Owners

MylesBAstor

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,223
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New York City
#1
Deleted
 
Last edited:

kach22i

WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
1,191
78
210
Ann Arbor, Michigan
www.kachadoorian.com
#2
Anyone still using CLSs?
I have yet to go to a friends house that has them, he put a lot of work into getting them set up right and raves about them. Custom stands, big arse Krells, a subwoofer, room treatments and so forth.

The only time I have listened to CLS's was at an audio store for a group listen some 12 years ago. Some cable company was doing the presentation. Chairs were three rows deep, I elected to sit in the front, almost in the middle. My experience from that vantage point was one akin to listening to giant headphones. Nearfield in the extreme, I was like on stage with the band. In that setup on that day I felt they were a little hollow sounding, too airy and light. Wonderful sound, just not tough sounding, too delicate sort of lacy. More meat, less salad would have made a better meal.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,944
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Metro DC
#3
The CLS

Know there's a few lurking on the site. Stand up and tell us about your speakers and what you're using with your MLs!!!

CLS I MOSCODE 402 AU
Anyone still using Actually they were never really intended to be a viable product-more a lab experiment. But they certainly in some ways, in those days, did things that other speakers couldn't dream of doing. Problems and there were a few. One was the impedance curve, esp. the series 2 that drove almost all tube amplifier I knew crazy -- and weren't a viable combo. According to Gayles 'interview the CLS was flat and had serious dispersion problems. The company almost never got off the ground. Once it did get off the ground the speaker was the darling of the industry.The words revealing and transparency were bornThe other was the low end extension-and trying to match to a sub only caused more problems than it solved. I really think that the thinness/edginess of the CLS was in part the impedance curve and no lows to really balance the musical spectrum (and yes, we can talk about diaphragm issues too).
I found the Janis sub to be an acceptable match. At the time I never found the impedance curve to be a problem. I took home every amp my dealer had. There was never any problem.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#4
I owned a pair of Janis subs 20 years ago. I didn't know he was still in business. Built a beautiful sub but I remember at the time his biggest competition was Velodyne
 

MylesBAstor

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,223
7
38
New York City
#5
I owned a pair of Janis subs 20 years ago. I didn't know he was still in business. Built a beautiful sub but I remember at the time his biggest competition was Velodyne
He built a pretty good cartridge too in those days! Not sure if John M. is still around; last I know he was living in the Bronx.
 
Apr 23, 2010
139
15
18
#6
Know there's a few lurking on the site. Stand up and tell us about your speakers and what you're using with your MLs!!!

Anyone still using CLSs? Actually they were never really intended to be a viable product-more a lab experiment. But they certainly in some ways, in those days, did things that other speakers couldn't dream of doing. Problems and there were a few. One was the impedance curve, esp. the series 2 that drove almost all tube amplifier I knew crazy -- and weren't a viable combo. The other was the low end extension-and trying to match to a sub only caused more problems than it solved. I really think that the thinness/edginess of the CLS was in part the impedance curve and no lows to really balance the musical spectrum (and yes, we can talk about diaghram issues too).
That would be me, The CLS were way ahead of thgeir time. The amplifiers of their day were not suited for the impedence curve and current they need. They are remarkable speakers. ML did not market them exactly right either. The time was changing and the big Micro sub sat boom was taking over. Who wanted a expensive big footprint speaker taht was POWER amp murderer when for $1500 they got a Lexacon and sone micros and a sub and had the hall in their room

Todays amps with much better eserves and power make them really sing. My Krell renderss them breathless. I the biggest thing ML foirgot was trhe stands. They NEED to be on stands. ML actually started to recomend using the Arcci stands that are no longer made. I made my own and it was night and day. Bass was tighter and immige was way better. The stands need to brace the rear panels from swaying as that hurts the immage.

there were some other crosover tweaks that we did to mine (Jim Power @ML) that helps too.



I have yet to go to a friends house that has them, he put a lot of work into getting them set up right and raves about them. Custom stands, big arse Krells, a subwoofer, room treatments and so forth.

The only time I have listened to CLS's was at an audio store for a group listen some 12 years ago. Some cable company was doing the presentation. Chairs were three rows deep, I elected to sit in the front, almost in the middle. My experience from that vantage point was one akin to listening to giant headphones. Nearfield in the extreme, I was like on stage with the band. In that setup on that day I felt they were a little hollow sounding, too airy and light. Wonderful sound, just not tough sounding, too delicate sort of lacy. More meat, less salad would have made a better meal.
George Ann Arbor is only a Hr drive away and the beer is cold . COME ON OVER AND YOU WILL BE BLESSED!
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,944
149
280
Metro DC
#7
After that maybe C.A.P. can take you to Kens' house and you can hear CLX with his big Krells'.
 

MylesBAstor

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,223
7
38
New York City
#10
I have a pair of ML Spires, finished in Natural Cherry with clear binding posts. I got them last February.

They're currently being driven by a pair of PrimaLuna ProLogue Seven monoblocks (2-Ohm tap!).

I think they're a great speaker!
Did you try running the speakers using the 4 ohm taps on the amps?
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
#12
My experience with tube amps is that you want the amp's impedance equal to the speakers (or at the speaker's nominal impedance), not chosen based upon the speakers lowest impedance point.
I completely agree. A point well made
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,944
149
280
Metro DC
#13
I've not heard Ken's new speakers either.

Of course nobody in the "club" has heard my little Aerius's with tubes.

I have to get my house "guest ready", later this summer I hope.
I had the aerius with the conrad johnson integrated. very nice. Mated with a Naim cd player.
 

nsgarch

New Member
Apr 21, 2010
88
0
0
#14
Anyone still using CLSs? Actually they were never really intended to be a viable product-more a lab experiment. But they certainly in some ways, in those days, did things that other speakers couldn't dream of doing.
STILL?!!? Is there even an alternate?? An experiment?? Five, count 'em, five models?? Some experiment! Oh and you seem to have forgotten the CLS led to the first model of the Statement -- CLS on steroids (just like 'Fabio' one of the first owners ;-)
Problems and there were a few. One was the impedance curve, esp. the series 2 that drove almost all tube amplifier I knew crazy -- and weren't a viable combo. The other was the low end extension-and trying to match to a sub only caused more problems than it solved.
No. No problems. No arc-ing like Quad 57's. No thinness or edginess, unless you were dumb enough to use a current-poor SS amp that ran out of gas at 1 ohm. Remember, a Quad 57's impedance curve drops to nothing a 600Hz, a much nastier place to have that happen (than at 15KHz like a CLS) and yet Peter Walker had no trouble driving them with a 15W tube amp! C'mon, I really don't think you know what you're talking about! You just never heard one with a proper amp. I had a pair of ARC M300 140W triode monoblocks driving my CLS's when I got them (in 1990.) and it was total majik! Finding a sub with really great transient response (Entec's claim to fame, regardless of build quality) was tough. And Entec had just gone belly-up anyway. Did I let that stop me? Hell no! I was just a few bucks away from the best system Chris Hansen ever sold! No good subs? Right! How about a pair of Wilson Puppies, a Mark Levinson 23.5, and a Bryston 10B electronic crossover? How about that Mr. Thin and Edgy?
I really think that the thinness/edginess of the CLS was in part the impedance curve and no lows to really balance the musical spectrum (and yes, we can talk about diaghram issues too).
Oh bullpucky!!
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,944
149
280
Metro DC
#15
Well NSGARCH is not known for mincing his words. The opinions expressed by Miles were the popular opinion of the day. Lucky for me I had never heard of the CLS when I first listened. I swear the dealer set me up. Each speaker was placed in front of a window! His pair was well broken in and matched with the right components. Two weeks later I put in my order.If I had heard all the negative comments about the CLS I never would have bothered.

The fact is the CLS revealed problems with associated equipment that was not done before. Initially it took the blame. Time proved who the guilty culprit was.
 

kach22i

WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
1,191
78
210
Ann Arbor, Michigan
www.kachadoorian.com
#16
Remember, a Quad 57's impedance curve drops to nothing a 600Hz, a much nastier place to have that happen (than at 15KHz like a CLS)
So the Quad impedance drops dead center in the midrange, and the CLS dips in the lower bass?

Does the Quad have a crossover problem?

Random speaker frequency chart to help (me) visualize this:
http://speaker.rosaryshop.com/index.php/r/tutorial


Neil (nsgarch), I agree that you can be less bombastic and still get your points across effectively. We are mere mortals.

Cheers, George/kach22i
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,944
149
280
Metro DC
#17
Wrong opinions have consequences. See Stereophile Archives for the review that damned the CLS with feint praise. Despite the fact that the absolute sound had given it great praise. It was the choice of their reviewers and HP was about to make it his second reference. Gayle decided abandon the CLS and go hybrid with the Sequel. See Gayles exit interview. He farmed out the CLS II with disastrous results. BTW I never knew anyone who hated the CLS. Some like me found it extremely frustrating. Along came VTL and the Kinnergetics sub. most thought the problems solved.
My dealer sold me a janis sub. The problem was still not solved. He then came and pressed a device in my hand. Back then everyone knew each other in the high end. I did not even pay for it. Just send me a check if you like it. It was the quicksilver transformer. Insufficient gain in the phone stage. I was using CJ pv5 with a low output mc.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
9,483
5
0
#18
Once upon a time, I bought a brand new pair of ML Aerius speakers (the original version), and I had them for many years. I used to say that no other audio purchase I had ever made prior to the ML had ever made me as happy. The Aerius were great speakers, but they didn't have any bottom end. When I finally built the addition on to my house so I could have my own dedicated stereo room, I sold them and moved on to a full range speaker.

Mark
 

nsgarch

New Member
Apr 21, 2010
88
0
0
#19
So the Quad impedance drops dead center in the midrange, and the CLS dips in the lower bass?
No, the CLS impedance dips at 15,000 Hz (starts a bit sooner, and then just keeps dropping.)
Does the Quad have a crossover problem?
I don't think I understand the question; the Quad, like the CLS is a full range electrostat.
Neil (nsgarch), I agree that you can be less bombastic and still get your points across effectively. We are mere mortals.
In this dumbed-down, PC culture of ours, I believe a little bombast now and then should be regarded as a refreshing sign that some of us 'mere mortals' have not gone completely to sleep! We are all entitled to our opinions, valueless as they may be. I'd sooner accept an "educated guess" than someone's unvetted opinion glibly presented to me as fact. As Paul Simon so astutely observed, ". . . proof is everything!"
 

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