Looking for Preamp

Number9

Active Member
Oct 15, 2018
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After a long (ish) haitus due to a recent move I need to replace a couple components. I heard for the first time the MSB DAC over at Alma last week and thought it impressive. I learned however that the upgraded preamp module ($6k) is a passive device which is putting me on the path for possible options/alternatives. There seems to be a lot of professional reviews of the Grandinote preamps that boast the brand quite a bit but I can access only two or three members making multiple posts in various fora, so not much end user feedback with real investment. My question, has anyone heard any of these at a show or anywhere else that could compare with either CJ, Constellation, or any Rowland house sound? I will be partnering up with a pair of Berning Quadz’s. Another top contender for me is the SMc but cost is ^^^. Remote is a must-have although I must admit I have seriously thought about using a long stick and some chewing gum.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Give the Aries Cerat Incito a listen. It is 7.5K Euro.
 
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thedudeabides

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Jan 16, 2011
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Used CJ ET5's available for under $5K.
 

bonzo75

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After a long (ish) haitus due to a recent move I need to replace a couple components. I heard for the first time the MSB DAC over at Alma last week and thought it impressive. I learned however that the upgraded preamp module ($6k) is a passive device which is putting me on the path for possible options/alternatives. There seems to be a lot of professional reviews of the Grandinote preamps that boast the brand quite a bit but I can access only two or three members making multiple posts in various fora, so not much end user feedback with real investment. My question, has anyone heard any of these at a show or anywhere else that could compare with either CJ, Constellation, or any Rowland house sound? I will be partnering up with a pair of Berning Quadz’s. Another top contender for me is the SMc but cost is ^^^. Remote is a must-have although I must admit I have seriously thought about using a long stick and some chewing gum.

Berning quads are very specific regarding preamps. So if you don't know your choice or have a budget, use the Berning pre without a remote till you do. You will survive, and have a good reference to compare to.. And then walt till you get the budget for the SMc or a Soulution 720 at a good price.
 

bazelio

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@Number9 if you audition any preamps and would like to compare to a very transparent alternative (passive autoformer volume control), I can bring one by. You seem to be in my neck of the woods, and this Slagle device may surprise you. See this Emia review. We will just want to double check a couple things on the spec sheets of your source and the Berning Quadz.
 

Sablon Audio

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May 22, 2015
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A couple of pointers I’ve noticed from my Berning Quads is that they sound better driven xlr but did not like inductive / TVC volume stage. I would suggest caution with preamps which use traffos to convert signal to xlr or just for output coupling.
 

bazelio

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I wouldn't use an inductive volume control to convert to XLR. I'd either go balanced in to balanced out or unbalanced in to unbalanced out. If Berning has a low input impedance to ground, that's a problem and bad design.
 

bonzo75

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A couple of pointers I’ve noticed from my Berning Quads is that they sound better driven xlr but did not like inductive / TVC volume stage. I would suggest caution with preamps which use traffos to convert signal to xlr or just for output coupling.

Which other preamps did you try? Which worked and which didn't? So RCA did not work well?
 

Sablon Audio

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I wouldn't use an inductive volume control to convert to XLR. I'd either go balanced in to balanced out or unbalanced in to unbalanced out. If Berning has a low input impedance to ground, that's a problem and bad design.

Many valve amps (pre and power) have single end circuitry and use traffos to facilitate xlr. This approach diminishes sound quality.

Which other preamps did you try? Which worked and which didn't? So RCA did not work well?

I didn’t go too deep on this Kedar, just the Bespoke tvc which didn’t gel with the Quadz and lost musical energy compared to going directly from the dac.

XLR sounds much better than rca, stronger dynamics and greater presence. Some of this may be down to dual differential output but the overall gain was so strong that it suggests the Quadz may be optimised for balanced operation despite the Berning pre being rca only.
 

bonzo75

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Going directly from which dac, did you try the Lampi?

Which tubes?
 

bazelio

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Sep 26, 2016
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Many valve amps (pre and power) have single end circuitry and use traffos to facilitate xlr. This approach diminishes sound quality.



I didn’t go too deep on this Kedar, just the Bespoke tvc which didn’t gel with the Quadz and lost musical energy compared to going directly from the dac.

XLR sounds much better than rca, stronger dynamics and greater presence. Some of this may be down to dual differential output but the overall gain was so strong that it suggests the Quadz may be optimised for balanced operation despite the Berning pre being rca only.

The Berning has balanced circuitry so XLR really is the "native" format and should be preferred.

Input impedance looks reasonable enough for direct from DAC connectivity. A TVC issue is very unlikely related to the Berning, but rather to the source. E.g. if source is OTL or another topology with high output impedance or lower signal swing, and the inductive reactance of your particular TVC isn't a good impedance match. You should be careful simply saying "Berning doesn't work with TVC."
 

Sablon

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Jun 1, 2014
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The Berning has balanced circuitry so XLR really is the "native" format and should be preferred.

Input impedance looks reasonable enough for direct from DAC connectivity. A TVC issue is very unlikely related to the Berning, but rather to the source. E.g. if source is OTL or another topology with high output impedance or lower signal swing, and the inductive reactance of your particular TVC isn't a good impedance match. You should be careful simply saying "Berning doesn't work with TVC."

Output from the dac is 5v / 22 ohm, so there should be no shortage of drive. It might be the case that Berning uses interstage traffo coupling which caused the sound to become overly damped with the TVC however I am quite comfortable with the caveat I made earlier. Autoformer may give a better outcome.
 

heihei

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Jul 24, 2017
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I've tried a lot of pre-amps with my Berning Quads, and haven't found any that don't "work". As Sablon Audio says, active gives better drive to the music than passives, but aside from that, have had good results with Audio Research, Nagra, CH, VTL, Mayer, Thoress, Audionet, Berning, LTA, Tidal, Soulution. In fact right now am comparing the CH L1 (with and without X1), VTL 7.5, and Mayer 10Y.

Interestingly, the Berning Pre One was good but not outstanding - I was expecting more from the combination.

Check out Roy Gregory's reviews - he has a pair of Quads as part of his reference system. One of the things he noted when comparing the Audio Research Ref 10, VTL 7.5 and CJ was that he got better results by altering the feedback.
 
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bazelio

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Sep 26, 2016
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Active will be more dynamic than resistor ladder type passive attenuators very often, but without significant impedance issues, I've yet to hear anything as close sounding to "direct connect" as the passive AVC I'm using now. The AVC even solves impedance issues much of the time.

Interstage trannies, output trannies, and tranny volume control all in one could be a bit much, but if the TVC is a transparent device, I'd doubt it. Maybe that TVC simply isn't.

Anyhow..... enough on this topic for me.
 

Number9

Active Member
Oct 15, 2018
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Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. It is very comforting to know where to turn to where special and caring people are always here to help. Very lucky to have this. My experiences with passive is pretty much in line with most. Plenty of detail and transparency at the expense of tone density and drive. I had the Placette in a previous system configuration but have also tried many DACS direct and they always come up a bit short. It’s hard to argue the marketing appeal considering the lower cost and the theoretical benefits of simplicity but I think there are only few that are an end game solution.
I can’t put my finger on why the Grandinote appeals so much to me. There are so many great ones. My all time fav Is the Lyra connessuier but no remote and more than I want to spend. The Soulution has a great following that has been recommended by a few and can be had on the used market. I have a concerm with the capacitor they use for dc protection that is constantly switched in/out of signal path. The 720 has been replaced with the 725 that has upgraded class D psu that (like the updated Rowland psu) is supposed to really kick things up a few. The Corus worked well with the Berning in my old room but I just couldn’t justify the 7k for the newer supply. That was then however.
 

bonzo75

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Yes but the difference in the cost of the 720 and 725 is quite a lot, and you can always upgrade to the 725 later when funds allow
 
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CKKeung

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Jun 17, 2011
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Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. It is very comforting to know where to turn to where special and caring people are always here to help. Very lucky to have this. My experiences with passive is pretty much in line with most. Plenty of detail and transparency at the expense of tone density and drive. I had the Placette in a previous system configuration but have also tried many DACS direct and they always come up a bit short. It’s hard to argue the marketing appeal considering the lower cost and the theoretical benefits of simplicity but I think there are only few that are an end game solution.
I can’t put my finger on why the Grandinote appeals so much to me. There are so many great ones. My all time fav Is the Lyra connessuier but no remote and more than I want to spend. The Soulution has a great following that has been recommended by a few and can be had on the used market. I have a concerm with the capacitor they use for dc protection that is constantly switched in/out of signal path. The 720 has been replaced with the 725 that has upgraded class D psu that (like the updated Rowland psu) is supposed to really kick things up a few. The Corus worked well with the Berning in my old room but I just couldn’t justify the 7k for the newer supply. That was then however.

The powersupply of the new Soulution 725 preamp is not of switching type, it's still traditional linear powersupply but much improved than 720's.

The 711 stereo and 701 mono poweramps have switching powersupplies.
 

Number9

Active Member
Oct 15, 2018
131
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35
That makes perfect sense for amp rather than pre. Thanks. I wasn’t able to get a definitive price on the upgrade other than very expensive,and not worth it from a finance view.
 

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