Listening and Vision

wil

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Jul 22, 2015
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I've been paying more attention lately to the differences between listening with eyes open or closed.
I find myself going back and forth for a different experience. Eyes closed usually brings more effortless focus.
But lately, I've been noticing that with open eyes, the sense of space and soundstage seem to expand.

Maybe the ideal is to listen in a mostly darkened room with eyes open.

Related to this, I also find myself creating a visual image in my mind of the instruments I'm hearing with moving fingers on keys and strings. Anything to get the electronic-stereo illusion closer to reality.
 
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brad225

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Nov 22, 2012
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If I am listening with my eyes closed I have fallen asleep. It does happen and I will awaken and think, where did those tracks go.

I do listen in a room with the lights dimmed. The sides and back walls brighter than the sound stage area.
 

gleeds

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May 29, 2018
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Brad, what your experience tells me is your system is creating magic! I have observationally studied the physiological effects generated from a really pure audio system for years (especially with non-audiophiles). A room well insulated from external noise, good temperature control, and dimmable lighting really helps one relax into the sound being reproduced in a way not otherwise possible. I recently had this experience listening in Steve William's listening room. Below is a photo of a room/system we were intimately involved that covered those bases exceptionally well and where on one or two occasions I dozed off as well. The room is temperature-controlled and soundproof. The mood lighting, of course, is above the healthy-sized ceiling diffuser.
Miller System.jpg
 
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gleeds

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Perhaps Wils' method is a perfect balance?
 

brad225

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Brad, what your experience tells me is your system is creating magic! I have observationally studied the physiological effects generated from a really pure audio system for years (especially with non-audiophiles). A room well insulated from external noise, good temperature control, and dimmable lighting really helps one relax into the sound being reproduced in a way not otherwise possible. I recently had this experience listening in Steve William's listening room. Below is a photo of a room/system we were intimately involved that covered those bases exceptionally well and where on one or two occasions I dozed off as well. The room is temperature-controlled and soundproof. The mood lighting, of course, is above the healthy-sized ceiling diffuser.
View attachment 94032
Fantastic room. I love the wood detail of the diffusion. I would love to hear that amp-speaker combination sometime.
 

gleeds

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The room is exceptional. The system consists of:

- Evolution Acoustic M-7s with matching subs (2 only, typically comes with 4 )
- darTZeel NB-18NS pre
- darTZeel 458 amplifiers
- Playback Design MPD-5 SACD/DAC

Mike Levign's system has similar amplification, including the entire stack of subwoofers plus a fantastic assortment of end-game digital, vinyl, and analog tape front ends.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Gary, i recognize that system, room, and the unique finish on those 458's....from years ago....

i'm a huge believer in listening in dim light. and that's how i listen 100% of the time i'm not multi-tasking. our DNA clutters our minds in pitch black with fear, daylight occupies lots of brain capacity with processing, but dim elminates fear, yet frees our ears and body to sense. you can still navigate in the room but the mood is right. your body is r-e-l-a-x-e-d when the light is dim. a physical change enhancing the experience.

my eyes are not quite closed.....i get a fully populated soundstage, layering, flow, micro-dynamics, and a complete sense of envelopment and emotive pull.

a couple visiting this past weekend commented on how much more real the system sounded with the lights dimmed. those 3000 pounds of -4- 7 foot towers 8 feet away were not intruding on their visual head space.

1654212148166.png
 
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tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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I've been paying more attention lately to the differences between listening with eyes open or closed.
I find myself going back and forth for a different experience. Eyes closed usually brings more effortless focus.
But lately, I've been noticing that with open eyes, the sense of space and soundstage seem to expand.

Maybe the ideal is to listen in a mostly darkened room with eyes open.

Related to this, I also find myself creating a visual image in my mind of the instruments I'm hearing with moving fingers on keys and strings. Anything to get the electronic-stereo illusion closer to reality.

This is an interesting topic.

Imo I find listening occurs on different levels, from the fully analytical / cognitive state to the sensuous plane of non-cognitive listening at the limbic level. These levels are typically an admixture, different combinations of degrees of both states. One of the regulators of such is vision.

I don't believe sight helps me listen better.

Listening for enjoyment I find my eyes closed much of the time. Visual sensory input causes that part of my brain to work more and ultimately is a distraction - and in that sense I agree with you that either focus or enrapture is simplified. At least my audio system does not move which would be even more distracting with eyes open.

My chair has wide arms and typically I have a small notebook sitting on the right hand arm to take notes for reviewing. As my brain parses what I hear into words I will write, describing what I hear. This I do mostly with eyes open but the eyes themselves often defocus - I pay less attention to the visual in front of me though I do focus on the paper when I write. There is something of a balancing act between the congnitive and non-cognitive - it is intensional as I move between listening and writing, and that makes it work in so far as it is an act of will and I rarely allow myself to lapse into a primarily limbic view.

I'm familiar with orchestra layouts and instruments and like you I will visualize an orchestra laid out before me - in my mind's eye, more likely happening with my eyes closed. My awareness moves between focusing on an instrument particularly in solo or a section of instruments such as trombones or violas, to the orchestra as a whole, as themes and melody flows across it. This too is a combination of analytic and sensuous perception.

We are, imo, vision-centric creatures - witness the posting of pictures above as explanatory devices. Our vocabulary is better suited to describing what we see than what we hear. The whole soundstage and imaging topics are done in visually oriented words along with notions such as tonal color and sound coloration.

Trying to describe sound, what we hear, without visual reference is a challenge. An holistic perspective recognizes that we also listen with our our whole bodies, we don't just listen to music, we experience music.
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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I've been paying more attention lately to the differences between listening with eyes open or closed.
I find myself going back and forth for a different experience. Eyes closed usually brings more effortless focus.
But lately, I've been noticing that with open eyes, the sense of space and soundstage seem to expand.

Maybe the ideal is to listen in a mostly darkened room with eyes open.

Related to this, I also find myself creating a visual image in my mind of the instruments I'm hearing with moving fingers on keys and strings. Anything to get the electronic-stereo illusion closer to reality.

Had you not been serious this would have been an excellent example of sarcastic humor. I ROFLed at listening in a dark room with eyes open being the conclusion.

It's also good to keep mind and ears open
 
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wil

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Jul 22, 2015
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But actually, part of my interest in this subject is that I suspect there may be a difference in how we hear and perceive space with eyes open or closed -- even if comparing eyes open in a lightless cave and eyes closed in the same cave.

There is something about having my eyes open that I believe increases my aural spatial awareness independent of visual stimuli.

No doubt there are some studies on this relating to how our different senses interact.
 
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brad225

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Nov 22, 2012
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Wasn't able to get my room as dark in the photo as it is when actually listening.






IMG_1696.JPG
 
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tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
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But actually, part of my interest in this subject is that I suspect there may be a difference in how we hear and perceive space with eyes open or closed -- even if comparing eyes open in a lightless cave and eyes closed in the same cave.

There is something about having my eyes open that I believe increases my aural spatial awareness independent of visual stimuli.

No doubt there are some studies on this relating to how our different senses interact.

I read that the brain enjoys a certain neural plasticity; upon the loss of one sense it re-wires itself to making better use of the area of the brain or 'processing power' that was devoted to the now lost sense.

What I'm curious about is whether anything like that can occur on a very short term basis. Or, how long must one quiesce one's vision to acquire more acute or better focused hearing.

I have no clue if closing eyes or having eyes open, say in a dark room, increases aural-spatial awareness. You believe it might. We could experiment with both states while listening in the dark. For me, I sense a difference between the two states, but I'm not sure yet what to make of it - it feels like I engage my mind differently with my eyes open in the dark, as if the eyelids open or shut are a trigger. My vague sense is that my aural awareness is enhanced in some way with my eyes closed, dark room or not.

One study noted an increase of 'alpha power' via an electroencephalogram (EEG) with eye closure yet also claimed no difference in perceptual sensitivity. I don't know what is meant by 'perceptual sensitivity' other than an increase or decrease in the ability to detect. That might not mean the same thing as an increase in awareness or understanding of what is heard / detected. "... eye closure did not only increase the overall level of absolute alpha power but also the attentional modulation thereof." I take the "attentional modulation thereof" to mean an ability to concentrate on or attend to the object at hand, so while our ability to perceive may not enhance, our ability to focus might be better with eyes closed. Shear speculation on my part, but that strikes me as reasonable (or as Ron might say "not unreasonable". )

While there ultimately may be a purely physical explanation I don't think 'science' is yet at the point of connecting information about neural activity and blood flow to what I'll call the phenomenological experience of an individual.
 
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gleeds

Industry Expert
May 29, 2018
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I came across a video, "Why Music and Hi-Fi Sound better at Night"

The idea of listening with our eyes I believe has solid merit across the entire audio experience. Included is a technical assessment of whether or not power is cleaner at night than during the day.

 

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