Large speaker improvements

[fuscobal]

Hello guys. My current speakers are Usher Be-10 that sit on their provided spikes (cones) + coins (washers). Floor is 14mm wooden parquet (triple layered, not massive) glued to the concrete slab. Room is quite well prepared with bass traps on all corners and in other key areas. The sound is very well controled and delicate, bass is tight and pretty fast but I feel it could have more slam (especially in the lower midbass area). Is there any tweak that could help in this regard ?

PS : Maybe the lack of slam on the lower midbass area comes from the fact that the large 11" Eton driver is mated directly to the BE midrange. More expensive speakers have 2-3 drivers (6-8") to take care of that area.

 

[Grady98]

Have you tried your speakers without spikes sitting directly on your wooden floor? I have never been a fan of spikes, especially on wooden floors.

 

[andromedaaudio]

No in my view its absolutely no problem to mate the 11 inch eton to a 5 inch mid.
The 11 inch can easily play high enough in the freq range to make a smooth crossing possible
The 11 inch eton is the best made woofer on the market together with its bigger brother the 12 inch Eton , despite being already a long time on the market (in my opinion)
Looking at the weight of the speaker 92 kg it is likely made of mdf with a different material frontplate.
To play in another league of bass quality , the best is a phenolic resin based cabinet , like in my own designs.
Avalon uses the same woofer also by the way but they use also mdf
Thats simply stated there can be a lot of other things that make your bass not optimal , all im saying its not the eton woofers fault its a design thing.
I m sure you have already tried to move the speakers to get better bass response, because that might help.
Have you looked inside the basscabinet through the reflex pipe( if it has one off course ) ?
If its stuffed to much with dampening material you might wanna take some out and listen again

 

[DaveC]

I'd recommend buying a measuring device, like Dayton OmniMic or a mic + free software is possible as well, but the Dayton product is setup to be able to use easily even if you have no idea what you're doing.

In almost all cases you'll have some constructive and destructive interference that shows as peaks and suckouts, speaker positioning and room acoustic devices can be used to optimize without using any eq. A change in listening position can even have major effects as the peaks and valleys depend on where in the room you're measuring.

I'd also suggest isolation rather than spikes, such as IsoAcoustics stands or footers. They all work the same so whatever form factor works for your speakers is fine. LOTS of footers on the market, Iso is a good baseline and not overly expensive although some of the footers aren't cheap.

 

[steve59]

I had the be dmd20’s and the previous owner attached plastic coasters over the spike holes and all the other base mounting holes so he could slide them around had he used the supplied spikes he probably wouldn’t have sold them the bass bass tightened up so much. I used a hegel h360 that has a high damping factor and hi power. I still had to keep them farther from the back wall so bass didn’t get thick. I really really enjoyed those speakers and could easily have kept them.

 

[fuscobal]

I did play a lot with speaker and listening position and at the end they sounded best very close to what the "math" formulas gives. I need to mention, sound is not bad at all but it can still be improved. Unfortunately, I tend to compare the spectral balance with what I'm hearing from my HD800 headphones which is simply much more realistic. I know it is close to impossible to bring a speaker setup to that level but still ...

Never played with isolation feet but am definitely interested in trying.

 

[fuscobal]

I had the be dmd20’s and the previous owner attached plastic coasters over the spike holes and all the other base mounting holes so he could slide them around had he used the supplied spikes he probably wouldn’t have sold them the bass bass tightened up so much. I used a hegel h360 that has a high damping factor and hi power. I still had to keep them farther from the back wall so bass didn’t get thick. I really really enjoyed those speakers and could easily have kept them.

Speakers are some 1.4m away from the back wall. I feel this is the most linear sounding position. Bringing them closer to the rear wall just makes the bass "boomier" which I don't want. I just want more energy/slam on the lower midbass area. At this point bass is tight, fast and just a little bit too delicate.

 

[sbnx]

At that distance you ate going to have a null in the 63Hz range. What are your room dimensions?

 

[JackD201]

Hi

For added mid bass you could try placing your speakers a little closer together. Try 10cm and if too much space them farther apart incrementally. Hope this helps

 

[fuscobal]

This would be the room. L = 690cm, l = 565cm, H = 265cm (to Rigips board) and 275cm to concrete slab. The 10cm fake ceiling is filled with rockwool. The white hashed areas are acoustic panels/bass traps. Distance from listening position to back wall is 210cm or approx. 30% of total length of the room. Distance between speakers and to side walls have ratios of 0.25 - 0.5 - 0.25 (145 - 285 - 145). Listening triangle is isosceles triangle with 2 sides of 330-335cm and the short side between speakers of 285cm. Speakers are angled a little bit outward (tweeter axis passes some 25cm to the leaft and right of my ears). The S in front of the couch is a table made by me and also filled with rockwool (on top of it there's a large glass panel (the only thing that messes a bit the high-frequency dispersion). I can say that generally I'm happy with the resonance and reverberation control (sound doesn't have much reverberation but isn't dead either). Green lines are natural stone (soft limestone) on walls that make a good dispersion pattern for high-frequencies. Windows on the left and rear wall + open room entrance at the upper right have thick absorbant curtains.

 

[andromedaaudio]

On the bottom are the specs of your model i think as taken from the net .
You see they specify it as 8 ohms nominal , which doesnt tell much , you wanna see a graph like this here, this is a graph of my XPE speakers .
You see i can also specify my speakers as a 10 ohm nominal speaker , what that doesnt tell you is that they do dip to 3,5 ohms at 10 khz .
You see in the bass section my speakers are very easy to control , they stay above 5 ohms with a 93 db efficiency .
If yours dip to 2 ohms at 80 hz ( which is possible as i ve seen no imp. graph yet ) your amp has to provide a lot of current at that freq to keep control over the LS units
It might be wise to try a more high power /stable amp into low impedance's on your speakers .
If the problem persists change the speaker , because the room etc looks fine to me

Technical Specifications:


System: 3-way Ported Floor Standing Speaker

Drivers : 1.25" Diamond Dome Tweeter; 5" Beryllium Woofer; 11" Eton Kevlar Woofer
Sensitivity: 89 dB @ 1 watt / 1m
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Frequency Response (-3 dB): 24 Hz ~ 40 kHz
Power Handling: 180 watts
Crossover Frequencies: 3.5 kHz; 385 Hz
Dimensions (w x d x h): 14.4" x 28.2" x 47.9"

Weight: 203 lbs (92 kg)

 

[steve59]

Another placement option on the cardas website for speaker placement has no equal distances from side wall, rear wall and other side. I ended up 5.5' off left side, 8' apart and 4.5' off right wall with 3' to the rear port off the back wall. There was a xover upgrade that some owners opted for because it lowered the roll off point of the woofer, they claimed it cleaned up the mid bass, but maybe in your room it just left a big hole?

 

[sbnx]

Thanks for posting the diagram of your room. Here are a couple of observations.

1. The distance to the wall behind your speaker should be measured from the front of your speakers. (Really from the acoustic center but the front is pretty close to that). I assumed that added an additional 60cm between the front of the speaker and the wall.
2. You room (like many) is acoustically complex with the bar and the opening to the front right.
3. I did a quick calculation based on your room dimensions and speaker placement. I had to assume that your speakers are 61cm (2') deep. Given that you are getting a SBIR nulls at 80Hz from the close sidewall, 46 Hz from the front wall, 43 Hz from the rear wall and 36Hz from the far side wall. If I assume you are getting a reflection from the bar then that would cause a null at almost the exact same as the left speaker (80Hz). This 80Hz null is probably why you are not getting that midbass slam.

I echo one of the above posts. The best thing to do is to get a mic and take a measurement to see your frequency response in the bass. Trying to absorb the 80Hz wave at the sidewall will be a challenge and would require a pretty thick (12") absorber.

The best solution may involve a pair of subwoofers and a crossover.

 

[steve59]

[IMG]https://www.whatsbestforum.com/data/avatars/l/5/5752.jpg?1562686759[/IMG]
sbo6
Well-Known Member

Mar 31, 2019
#18
FWIW, I'm likely selling my Ushers BE20Ds already upgraded. Feel free to stop by if you want to listen to the upgraded Ushers, they are something special IMO.

4x20A circuits | PS Audio PPP | 4 Linear PSUs -> Music PC w/JCAT Femto Ethernet, HQPlayer / Roon | Sonore Signature PSU -> SOTM SMS-200 Ultra Neo | Aqua Formula xHD Rev. 2 DAC | Purity Audio Silver Statement preamp | Wells Audio Innamorata Signature amp (M/T) | Wells Audio Innamorata amp (W) | Vivid Audio Giya G2 Series 2 | 4 JL Audio Fathoms (2: F113s, 2: F110s) | JPS Labs SC3/Aluminata cables | Stillpoints -> components, Isoacoustics Gaia II -> speakers | Custom Baltic birch rack | Fully treated + dedicated 2 channel room

GP acoustics

Copy/paste from last year when I still had my be20's. I wonder if this would address the problem after room issues are eliminated?

 

[fuscobal]

Thanks for posting the diagram of your room. Here are a couple of observations.

1. The distance to the wall behind your speaker should be measured from the front of your speakers. (Really from the acoustic center but the front is pretty close to that). I assumed that added an additional 60cm between the front of the speaker and the wall.
2. You room (like many) is acoustically complex with the bar and the opening to the front right.
3. I did a quick calculation based on your room dimensions and speaker placement. I had to assume that your speakers are 61cm (2') deep. Given that you are getting a SBIR nulls at 80Hz from the close sidewall, 46 Hz from the front wall, 43 Hz from the rear wall and 36Hz from the far side wall. If I assume you are getting a reflection from the bar then that would cause a null at almost the exact same as the left speaker (80Hz). This 80Hz null is probably why you are not getting that midbass slam.

I echo one of the above posts. The best thing to do is to get a mic and take a measurement to see your frequency response in the bass. Trying to absorb the 80Hz wave at the sidewall will be a challenge and would require a pretty thick (12") absorber.

The best solution may involve a pair of subwoofers and a crossover.

Speaker is inclined but from midrange driver to the port on the back there's like 50cm that should be added to the distance from the rear wall. I will try to get some mic measurements if possible. Would you recommend 2 x 12" absorbers on both side walls (one on the left, behind the curtain and in front of the window and the other one under that 2m long painting) ?

PS : Exactly above the listening point I made a soffit going 30cm down from the ceiling ( between 2 beams ) that is represented by the red rectangle on the drawing. That one is also filled with rockwool.

 

[sbnx]

Fuscobal, making absorbers is cheap so i would make a big one 3'x5' and as deep as you can. Even 12" only absorbs 60-70% at 80 hz. Use pink fluffy insulation for this and not rockwool. The fluffy insulation works much better for deep absorbers. Then place it at the point of fiirst reflection on the sidewall and see if that resolves the midbass issue

 

[sbnx]

If i might ask where you live as i see steve invited you over

 

[QuadDiffuser]

I recommend decoupling your speakers from the floor:
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ng-speakers-to-floor.29925/page-3#post-641065

 

[andromedaaudio]

Only ¨ problem ¨ i see with the room is the opening in the right corner , i believe you close this with a curtain .
If you put a solid door there , you have more pressure build up in the room

 

[steve59]

oops, my copy paste from another thread didn't go quite right. That invite was for me from a member in taxas a year ago. I meant to paste the link describing the benefits of the gp acoustics xover. duh