It’s all so quiet at MSB DAC development…

[Armsan]

Hello all,
I feel that the DAC evolution at MSB is so quiet…
They took almost 3 years to replace the previous Select/Reference firmware, and this last version, to my ears, adds nothing in SQ terms. The DSD conversion is still DoP. Real native conversion could climb the SQ ladder a few steps, I think.
And, in the meanwhile, others are taking the lead.
Am I wrong? What do you guys think?

 

[ecwl]

I think it is unfortunate that so many digital audio products offer firmware updates so often that it's confusing most consumers to expect regular firmware updates.

To me, the firmware/software of DACs can really only do a few things:
1) Change the upsampling algorithm
2) Change the noise-shaping algorithm
3) Change the USB interface/Ethernet interface

The problem here is that the hardware of digital audio products are fixed so
1) The upsampling algorithm is always limited by the computational processing power of the hardware built into the product. So ideally, you have optimized and maximized your upsampling algorithm and get optimal sound. To ask why there aren't new firmware to improve the sound, is like asking why isn't there a software update for my Apple II computer from 40 years ago so that it runs like a new M1 Pro MacBook Pro?
2) The noise-shaping algorithm that is tailored to the DAC architecture is also limited by the computational processing power of the hardware built into the product. So once again, ideally, the company should have optimized the noise-shaping algorithm at the time of product release so no further sonic upgrade would be possible.
3) Upgrading the USB interface definitely might improve the sound as a new firmware might run more efficiently and draw less power leading to less noise in the rest of the DAC circuit or less jitter overall. But USB interfaces would also be influenced by the music server that you're feeding the USB interface. So I can see how companies can sometimes change the code once the product is released. This applies less so for Ethernet interface and other feature upgrades.

Ultimately, my take is that from a sonic quality side, a DAC once designed, shouldn't "need" further firmware updates to improve the sound. Often companies that offer such upgrades were not optimally using their existing hardware built into the DAC and that's why they're able to provide these periodic updates.

 

[Alrainbow]

its been a while since i read any updates on msb flagship dac . I'm sure something big is coming . when i first heard the sel 2 it had not had its new red book software update yet . the next time i heard it , it had a new usb input card and the firmware vince had told me was going to be a game changer . vince did not lie hands down best redbook i ever heard back then . the source was a Arender no less Linux yuk .
while I'm off the digital train ride for now but do plan to hear what's new one day

 

[Alrainbow]

I think it is unfortunate that so many digital audio products offer firmware updates so often that it's confusing most consumers to expect regular firmware updates.

To me, the firmware/software of DACs can really only do a few things:
1) Change the upsampling algorithm
2) Change the noise-shaping algorithm
3) Change the USB interface/Ethernet interface

The problem here is that the hardware of digital audio products are fixed so
1) The upsampling algorithm is always limited by the computational processing power of the hardware built into the product. So ideally, you have optimized and maximized your upsampling algorithm and get optimal sound. To ask why there aren't new firmware to improve the sound, is like asking why isn't there a software update for my Apple II computer from 40 years ago so that it runs like a new M1 Pro MacBook Pro?
2) The noise-shaping algorithm that is tailored to the DAC architecture is also limited by the computational processing power of the hardware built into the product. So once again, ideally, the company should have optimized the noise-shaping algorithm at the time of product release so no further sonic upgrade would be possible.
3) Upgrading the USB interface definitely might improve the sound as a new firmware might run more efficiently and draw less power leading to less noise in the rest of the DAC circuit or less jitter overall. But USB interfaces would also be influenced by the music server that you're feeding the USB interface. So I can see how companies can sometimes change the code once the product is released. This applies less so for Ethernet interface and other feature upgrades.

Ultimately, my take is that from a sonic quality side, a DAC once designed, shouldn't "need" further firmware updates to improve the sound. Often companies that offer such upgrades were not optimally using their existing hardware built into the DAC and that's why they're able to provide these periodic updates.

i completely agree on firmware , msb simply said its free lol one thing that bugs me is still the fact the analog output is through a [passive pre amp of sorts . its a big jump backwards based on its high chip output

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I would like to see the bug fix for the issue introduced in the last update to the Ref dac pushed out. The missing second of music on one channel is annoying as hell. I had exchanges with a guy on Audiophile Style about it, but it must not affect all users, since I don't read people crabbing about it. My understanding is MSB is aware of the issue.

 

[docvale]

Thinking about a company with the reputation of MSB, fixing documented issues is a must.
Rolling out new products, IMHO, not so much: in the end, we are talking about ultimate products and improving what sits at the very top of a ladder can be tough.

 

[KeithR]

Since MSB supports their previous products for over a decade, not sure what the firmware complaint is. Just because the Wadax is the new shiny toy that costs >50% more than a Select doesn't mean that MSB is stale. dCS Vivaldi is almost 10 years old.

I really think DAC technology has matured considerably over the past decade and the focus has shifted to servers/digital sources.

 

[Levitator]

I think MSB’s focus has been on their amps for some time alongside the restructuring of their digital offerings in terms of which DAC has which chip / power base etc.

While I do appreciate that MSB still offer a high-end DAC in the market, there do seem to be more DAC’s now that compete with MSB and I do think that MSB can’t just rest on the reputation they have formed and need to continue evolving their DAC line up. I spoke to my dealer a few months ago about this very point and the response I got was that MSB haven’t yet been able to better what they have….with some of the innovative work that the likes of Lampizator, Wadax and Taiko (albeit in the server space) have been rolling out, it would be nice to think that MSB has some more innovation left in them to better what they have now had in play for a number of years….the 10yr trade up program is great, but if you’re already at the Select level, you’d want something better to move to well inside of 10yrs

 

[Mike Lavigne]

MSB Select is still the dac i recommend. i don't think the marketplace is doing anything to threaten it's stature. other dacs are trying to equal it. and it's value proposition is safe. customer support and loyalty has been stellar.

sure; they could go after Wadax at the higher price point, not sure that's the right approach for them though. i'm sure they are thinking about it. but it's not likely necessary.

just my viewpoint.

 

[Phantom-Audio]

Relying on Magazine reviews to make your choice for a DAC in prob one of the worst ideas - most of them are paid advertisements but not many people will understand how this game works behind closed doors,

Relying on forum posters is subjective too - some people have hidden agendas and others may lack enough experience and claim what they have is the best.

Right now the DAC market from the EU and Asia are providing some steller level audio gear. No one will exactly know as to which DAC really does sound more analogue,

I don't believe its possible for a digital DAC to sound like or beat Reel 2 Reel or a proper AnalogTurntable setup; I don't think this will ever happen as the flaw starts from the recording methods and mastering,

no one can have all the DACs in the same room with the same System and Source. There are way too many Variables.


The Key to a lot of the DAC Processing is the Internal Software Algorithm running; anyone can design the hardware side and join bits and bobs together. The software internally is where the rubber hits the road. This is by far my opinion, one of the most critical aspects.

We are, too, couped up with the hardware bling components.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

no one can have all the DACs in the same room with the same System and Source. There are way too many Variables.

not true. maybe not all the dacs, but the right dacs can be put together in the same system side by side and with the same media. or did you miss it?

The Key to a lot of the DAC Processing is the Internal Software Algorithm running; anyone can design the hardware side and join bits and bobs together. The software internally is where the rubber hits the road. This is by far my opinion, one of the most critical aspects.

We are, too, couped up with the hardware bling components.

actually the big leap by MSB 6-8 years ago now, was the actual proprietary hardware dac chips they designed. and then based all their new dac line up on how many of those chips they used. and the chip output was then sufficient to eliminate the analog output stage. hardware mattered.

and now Wadax has used their Dual-differential musIC 3 128-bit-feed-forward error correction process on a proprietary hardware chip, along with the Akasa Optical interface to leap ahead.

both took things to another level with build quality too. software matters, but what separates the men from the boys is the hardware. of course, hardware building is playing the long game and taking risks.

 

[Phantom-Audio]

Iv owned MSB, I know very well how they sound i have not owned a Wadax and would never want to even if money was not an issue for this level. Digital Tech moves so fast that someone somewhere will catch up with something even better.

what you cant do is make that thing sound like a proper Analog Rig. It's impossible at this rate and will never happen even if Wadax in 2-3 years comes out with a DAC priced at 500K Dollars.

You could pay a premium to get some Analog traits from an ultra prem dac but but can never make a Digital file or CD that sounds Like Vinyl or R2R. It will not happen even if the DAC is priced at 1 Million USD.

There is an alluring magical feeling of a proper analogue setup it has a soul and conveys emotions over to the listeners Digital file lacks this aspect.

Whilst Wadax claims the sound is live performance how do you describe the sound of the Wadax to your previous MSB Dac?

Software matters as it controls the hardware, (This is proven in the IT industry too) The money is in the software, we can build ultra-powerful hardware but all is useless if the software can not control and utilise it.

Whilst WADAX is currently sitting at 150K with its technical Jargon super tech the question i must ask you is, Does it exceed your Analog Rig? Do you feel it can outclass a R2R Player?

the musIC Forward correction is an internal algorithm processing is this not??? Correct me if I'm wrong. They need bigger hardware to run tighter complex algorithms.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Software matters as it controls the hardware,

...or hardware is a platform for software. It's an integration, actually.

 

[Phantom-Audio]

By no means this is an attack on you or Wadax, i hope i don't sound like that so apologies if I'm too direct!. The point I'm putting across is no DAC on the planet will achieve what Analog systems can do. I am referring to very high-end Analog Systems not your lower end turntable or R2R setups.

The issue of all this comes down to recording and mastering.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

@Phantom-Audio 100% agree with you re: recording and mastering.

However, regarding analog vs. digital you lost me. The caveat to that is (and it's a big one!): the very best systems I have heard have all been digital. I am all digital here.

So, to speak truly, I cannot prove or disprove my own assertion that digital can match/best analog. I *think* it can. I *think* it's a matter of flavor and familiarity with the format.

A couple of local friends have solid analog systems, but nothing like what I've spent of my digital front-end. Still, it sounds very good.

"Best" always feels like a slippery slope to me. Even "better" at times.

But it's all good fun and a joy to build out a system and enjoy it. The emotional part. The other stuff feels more intellectual to me. But it is a hobby...a pursuit, perhaps, so there are many paths to the top of the mountain...wherever that is! Cheers Phantom-Audio...

 

[Phantom-Audio]

I have big respect for your posts Mike, trust me if i come across direct i don't intend to offend.

I guess for myself i have been on the pursuit to get the same emotional connection from digital that Analog systems have given but without the hassle and cost of Vinyl or the space it takes up and the maintenance to keep it clean and well maintained constantly.

So far i just feel Digital systems just don't have that same form of soul one gets from Analog. Its been a dream to find a DAC which can do this but know i have come to a personal conclusion it will never happen regardless of how much tech moves fast on the digital domain. The problem is at the source (Recording) not the DAC Hardware.

May it bring you many years of joy as this is what the hobby is about overall.

 

[GSOphile]

The assumption that many of you make is that the Holy Grail is to make digital sound like (comparable/best?) analog. For some of us this is not the case. We are not invested in LPs and analog playback.

 

[Armsan]

...I would like to see the bug fix for the issue introduced in the last update to the Ref dac pushed out. The missing second of music on one channel is annoying as hell. I had exchanges with a guy on Audiophile Style about it, but it must not affect all users, since I don't read people crabbing about it. My understanding is MSB is aware of the issue.

The same here and, also, while playing a DSD file, the mute button doesn´t work.

 

[Armsan]

I think MSB’s focus has been on their amps for some time alongside the restructuring of their digital offerings in terms of which DAC has which chip / power base etc.

While I do appreciate that MSB still offer a high-end DAC in the market, there do seem to be more DAC’s now that compete with MSB and I do think that MSB can’t just rest on the reputation they have formed and need to continue evolving their DAC line up. I spoke to my dealer a few months ago about this very point and the response I got was that MSB haven’t yet been able to better what they have….with some of the innovative work that the likes of Lampizator, Wadax and Taiko (albeit in the server space) have been rolling out, it would be nice to think that MSB has some more innovation left in them to better what they have now had in play for a number of years….the 10yr trade up program is great, but if you’re already at the Select level, you’d want something better to move to well inside of 10yrs

Totally agree. There must be always room for improvement in a product of this level, I believe, either at the hardware or software/firmware side.

 

[Audire]

Iv owned MSB, I know very well how they sound i have not owned a Wadax and would never want to even if money was not an issue for this level. Digital Tech moves so fast that someone somewhere will catch up with something even better.

what you cant do is make that thing sound like a proper Analog Rig. It's impossible at this rate and will never happen even if Wadax in 2-3 years comes out with a DAC priced at 500K Dollars.

You could pay a premium to get some Analog traits from an ultra prem dac but but can never make a Digital file or CD that sounds Like Vinyl or R2R. It will not happen even if the DAC is priced at 1 Million USD.

There is an alluring magical feeling of a proper analogue setup it has a soul and conveys emotions over to the listeners Digital file lacks this aspect.

Whilst Wadax claims the sound is live performance how do you describe the sound of the Wadax to your previous MSB Dac?

Software matters as it controls the hardware, (This is proven in the IT industry too) The money is in the software, we can build ultra-powerful hardware but all is useless if the software can not control and utilise it.

Whilst WADAX is currently sitting at 150K with its technical Jargon super tech the question i must ask you is, Does it exceed your Analog Rig? Do you feel it can outclass a R2R Player?

the musIC Forward correction is an internal algorithm processing is this not??? Correct me if I'm wrong. They need bigger hardware to run tighter complex algorithms.

I agree. I have an excellent digital system (EMM DA2 V2 —> Aurender N30 - in our tests the EMM was more enjoyable than the MSB Select). It’s top tier, but my TT system still out does it.

My dealer was at my residence last Friday. We streamed, “You Take My Breath Away” by Eva Cassidy (The Best of …). Awesome. But then I placed my new album by the same name on the TT. The differences were immediately clear to both of us. The vinyl had something that the digital just didn’t reproduce. More subtle enjoyable detail. It was simply amazing. (this has been an ongoing pattern in my system)

IMO, digital is digital and analogue is analogue. While you can get the two very close, they presently aren’t the same. I hope to add a VAC Statement Phono pre amp in the future. I can’t even imagine what differences will be apparent then. If I build my new room I’ll be adding a second TT as well.

This said, I use to think differently and I don’t mean to demean digital audio at all. Digital may be very, very good - and I could be content with it alone for the remainder of my life - but at present it’s still playing catch up to good analogue. If I could only choose one it would be vinyl.