Is Dolby Atmos the future?

[b345t]

I have been thinking lately that stereo listening might be in its last decade or two. Everything that is being played the radio (top 40) and on major streaming platform playlists is currently is being mixed in dolby atmos. The stereo mixes that are played are computer generated downmixes from the original atmos mix. If your mix is not in atmos, apple music will not add it to their playlists. Spotify is currently building an atmos studio. Almost all of these new soundbars, bluetooth speakers, headphones etc are all atmos 'compatible'.

Me personally, I have not heard an atmos mix in a stereo setup or on headphones that sounded good. Something just seems off with the way the reverb and the voices are bouncing around; it can make you a little dizzy. It saddens me that the industry is pretty much forcing the world to adopt this multichannel approach. Mainly because the majority of people will not be listening to the mixes in 7.1, they will be wearing headphones or in their car. And in reality this is a 'pseudo' atmos that is being promoted.

We audiophiles know how hard stereo is to get right. I'm not talking about perfection, but good enough that things are 'glued' in the right position. And for that, I believe you need to look at the fundamentals being, treating first reflection points on all surfaces, sitting in the exact sweet spot, placement of equidistant speakers in the room forming the equilateral triangle to the listening position. I can't imagine trying to set up an atmos room to properly manage these points. Also, I feel like the notion of soundstage will be questionable at best. I love being able to listen to the accuracy of instrument placement, separation and 'air' around them my speakers and dac are delivering. How will this exist if you are surrounded by 15 speakers? I fully understand the effect being great in a movie/documentary setting. I have an atmos cinema setup myself. But I have not even tried playing an atmos mix on my receiver, it seems too gimmicky.

Anyway, rant over. What are your thoughts on this? Will everything be atmos in 10-15 years? Audiophile atmos systems will be the new thing?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i have a separate 2 channel room, which is mostly cost no object including the actual room itself, and then i have a common sense home theater room with Dolby Atmos capability with a 9.3.6 speaker set-up, with a Trinnov Altitude 16 processor. the Home Theater room has top level video, but the speakers and amps are merely competent......Revel in wall surrounds and main front and center channel. the subs are higher level, 3 Funk Audio 18.0's.

i also have a sports watching set-up upstairs in my barn with a decent Dolby Atmos surround set-up with my 85" 8k TV. the speakers are very modest and some are ceiling reflecting.

i don't listen to much 'music only' on either the Home Theater or sports watching set-up, but enough to have a feel for it. playing around with the various processing alternatives with the Home Theater set-up, and with the Trinnov there are many, it is very entertaining. but Dolby Atmos is 'object based', so really intended to work with movie and live concert soundtracks. and those can be breathtaking. i have Roon in the Trinnov, but playing 2 channel music through the processor is hit and miss in terms of it 'working well to improve the experience' verses it being a bit of a mess. but my reference 2 channel is a hard nut to crack.

not really pursued hearing a cost no object Dolby Atmos speaker set-up, so i can't say whether those systems can rise to my 2-channel performance level, i've been told that a few can. maybe?

i'd say Dolby Atmos is a great choice for the streaming world especially for all the streaming service content of movies and TV programming. but if you are listening to lots of 2 channel content you love then honestly it's not the first choice, but it's decent to good. i'm not into dsp'ing my long term go-to music recordings. so i just don't do it. but i have three separate places to choose from. plus my wife's Sonus whole house music system.

i think this is a 'media of choice' question; what is your main focus on sources and music? i could make a case a Dolby Atmos approach fits many more people than hard core 2 channel music fans. 20 years from now? who would have predicted the rise of vinyl 20 years ago? people really love their music. so i think we will still have both used 20 years from now, but also a rise in the use of Dolby Atmos/object based surround systems too. it does deliver a great experience on newer content.

consuming follows content production. and all the money and focus is now doing 'object based' surround sound with video production, so overall that is how it will trend too. but 60 years of stereo 2 channel music recordings is a strong pull that many will continue to want to hear optimally.

 

[b345t]

Hi Mike, I fully agree with Dolby Atmos being by far the best option for an immersive experience in movies and documentaries. I have a setup of it myself, although not in a fully dedicated room yet, that is when I build my house.

My main problem is that the music industry is 'forcing' producers to mix in dolby atmos. I'm fearful that we will lose the focus on properly recorded and mixed stereo music. Stereo just makes sense for human hearing. We have two ears. When you go to a concert, live music is heard in that way.

 

[Lee]

I agree with what Mike said but the Dolby Atmos mix of the Talking Heads catalog made a lot of sense. As Eric Thorngren says in this video, their catalog seemed perfect for an immersive Atmos mix.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Stereo just makes sense for human hearing. We have two ears. When you go to a concert, live music is heard in that way.

That's silly. We have two ears and they allow us to hear all around us. As a result, when you go to a concert, the live music is heard in the context of the performance site and we can appreciate the difference between a stadium and a small club. Stereo can barely suggest what decent multichannel and more immersive media can easily reveal.

 

[Joe Whip]

I have written about my experiences with Atmos music elsewhere. When done right it is vastly superior to stereo IMHO. it is not just limited to movies. I have written about two examples. Bob James Making Live and John Williams and the Vienna Philharmonic. Good luck getting that sound in two channel. Same with Eric Clapton and the Lady in the Balcony. The JW comes with 1080p video and the EC with 4K hdr to boot.

 

[Brucemck2]

Source material:
Two channel content done right can be spectacular. Atmos content done right can be even more spectacular. At this point there is far more two channel content “done right” than Atmos content “done right” but over time the lines will likely cross.

Playback chain:
Two channel is not easy to get right. It can take years to really dial in a high end two channel system. Atmos is easy to “turn on” but, in my experience, much harder than two channel to really dial in for music (or movies, let alone for both music and movies). But, whether two or multi channel, the journey is a large part of the joy of the hobby.

For now I’m enjoying both for what they are rather than what they are not (yet).

 

[Joe Whip]

I think dialing in an Atmos system is easier. Also, you can get great results with equipment that costs far less, even though there are more speakers involved.

 

[Tim Link]

From the video:

"Each guy wanted their own speaker"

I think I'd like that for their music! They have to consider how it will mix down to headphones too.

For me, one of the major potentials with more speakers and channels is the reduction of the need for phantom images. If you want a really good sound to seem to come from some direction, the best you can do is put a sound source where the sound is supposed to be coming from. Otherwise you will definitely get audible interference problems and HRTF mismatches. If you must cast a phantom image between two speakers, then the closer the speakers are together, the higher up and away from the critical midrange the interference problems can be pushed, and you get a closer HRTF match. That's why for music, I'd rather the setup and mix be based around 5 or 7 channels across the front of the room rather than spreading them out into a surround setup. Interestingly Mac AudioMidi setup app shows that as a potential speaker arrangement, with a whole bunch of speakers across the front wall.

 

[Robh3606]

I have been thinking lately that stereo listening might be in its last decade or two. Everything that is being played the radio (top 40) and on major streaming platform playlists is currently is being mixed in dolby atmos. The stereo mixes that are played are computer generated downmixes from the original atmos mix. If your mix is not in atmos, apple music will not add it to their playlists. Spotify is currently building an atmos studio. Almost all of these new soundbars, bluetooth speakers, headphones etc are all atmos 'compatible'.

Me personally, I have not heard an atmos mix in a stereo setup or on headphones that sounded good. Something just seems off with the way the reverb and the voices are bouncing around; it can make you a little dizzy. It saddens me that the industry is pretty much forcing the world to adopt this multichannel approach. Mainly because the majority of people will not be listening to the mixes in 7.1, they will be wearing headphones or in their car. And in reality this is a 'pseudo' atmos that is being promoted.

We audiophiles know how hard stereo is to get right. I'm not talking about perfection, but good enough that things are 'glued' in the right position. And for that, I believe you need to look at the fundamentals being, treating first reflection points on all surfaces, sitting in the exact sweet spot, placement of equidistant speakers in the room forming the equilateral triangle to the listening position. I can't imagine trying to set up an atmos room to properly manage these points. Also, I feel like the notion of soundstage will be questionable at best. I love being able to listen to the accuracy of instrument placement, separation and 'air' around them my speakers and dac are delivering. How will this exist if you are surrounded by 15 speakers? I fully understand the effect being great in a movie/documentary setting. I have an atmos cinema setup myself. But I have not even tried playing an atmos mix on my receiver, it seems too gimmicky.

Anyway, rant over. What are your thoughts on this? Will everything be atmos in 10-15 years? Audiophile atmos systems will be the new thing?

Depends!! I want a 2 channel mix available. Not everyone can support a 5.1 system in their rooms much less an Atmos system with overhead speaker installations.

Rob

 

[Tim Link]

Listening to Norah Jones Come Away With Me album on Apple Music in Spacial Audio mode I hear a weird high frequency ringing between the three note bass descending scales at the beginning of Cold Cold Heart. If I turn off Spacial Audio that ringing goes away.

Has anybody else heard any effects like that?

 

[hopkins]

I have written about my experiences with Atmos music elsewhere. When done right it is vastly superior to stereo IMHO. it is not just limited to movies. I have written about two examples. Bob James Making Live and John Williams and the Vienna Philharmonic. Good luck getting that sound in two channel. Same with Eric Clapton and the Lady in the Balcony. The JW comes with 1080p video and the EC with 4K hdr to boot.

You say ATMOS when done right is "vastly superior" to 2 channel. Now I've read plenty of threads about ATMOS and what I don't understand is why it always has to be compared to 2-channel, when the two seem to be so different?

Can you explain to me, like I was a 6 year old, how this type of recording - a piano trio, recorded in 1957 - would make sense to listen in ATMOS, if it is even possible?

In terms of "user experience", or fidelity, what would be the benefits?

If the future consists in not listening to the music of the past, the I don't see that as progress.

 

[Joe Whip]

Simple, space and scale. The Blue Note mixes of albums like Blue Train are amazing. All of the musicians are laid out in front of you like they are in the room, including in height, even beyond the walls of the room.And this is listening to the compressed DD plus streams on Apple Music. I can’t wait to hear the trueHD Atmos versions hopefully on physical media. Hopefully you will get a chance to hear it in a great set up one day.

 

[hopkins]

Simple, space and scale. The Blue Note mixes of albums like Blue Train are amazing. All of the musicians are laid out in front of you like they are in the room, including in height, even beyond the walls of the room.And this is listening to the compressed DD plus streams on Apple Music. I can’t wait to hear the trueHD Atmos versions hopefully on physical media. Hopefully you will get a chance to hear it in a great set up one day.

Thanks. I would love to hear it. I assume that the source material (tape) has to meet some requirements. What happens when it does not? What about solo instruments? How would that work ? I already find it distracting to hear a piano split between two channels... But regardless, I doubt that even a fraction of the 60.000 tracks I have in my digital collection (not to mention the LPs that never even made it to digital) will ever be mixed in ATMOS in my lifetime (I am 57), so that is something else to consider.

Space and scale are not everything. It may add "clarity", but there are some people who have heard ATMOS in good conditions and find it more of a distraction (even if they admit it is "impressive" on some aspects). Moreover, each speaker in an ATMOS setup may not be able to offer the type of qualities that some crave - and I don't see how multiplying them by 6 or 12 would change that. Since you are a member of this forum, I am sure you are aware that there are more than one ways of being an audiophile... Would you advise everyone here to change the brand of their two channel speakers to those that you use in your ATMOS setup (that is, without ATMOS) ?

Different, certainly. Superior ? I don't know.

 

[Joe Whip]

Any audio can get the Atmos treatment Even mono. If fact the Ella and Louis album is available in Atmos on Apple Music. Atmos is just like everything else. It can be used to great effect or poorly. I have heard some awful Atmos music mixes. When done well it can be amazing. Just like stereo. It is best if all the speakers are the same which is not possible with in ceiling speakers which should be from the same manufacturer as the rest or tonally equivalent . You can get amazing results without spending tons like with 2 channel. Using room correction software like in my Anthem can account for speaker differences and works beautifully .

 

[hopkins]

Any audio can get the Atmos treatment Even mono. If fact the Ella and Louis album is available in Atmos on Apple Music. Atmos is just like everything else. It can be used to great effect or poorly. I have heard some awful Atmos music mixes. When done well it can be amazing. Just like stereo. It is best if all the speakers are the same which is not possible with in ceiling speakers which should be from the same manufacturer as the rest or tonally equivalent . You can get amazing results without spending tons like with 2 channel. Using room correction software like in my Anthem can account for speaker differences and works beautifully .

I am convinced you like it - and it seems anytime someone does not, or expresses some reservations, they are confronted with the same answer: "you have not heard a good ATMOS system". Well, in this case I was referring to this feedback offered in a NYT article:

Susan Rogers, a longtime engineer for Prince, left the music industry in the late ’90s to become a cognitive neuroscientist. Last fall, Dolby invited her to the company headquarters in San Francisco to listen to a new Atmos mix of Prince’s “When Doves Cry,” a track she originally worked on.

“As both an engineer and as a psychoacoustician, I have mixed feelings about whether it’s an improvement,” Rogers said in a phone interview.
She noted that there are evolutionary and biological reasons that sound sources coming from behind and above listeners can be unsettling or anxiety inducing. She also observed that music is a potent form of communication in large part because the consummatory phase happens entirely in the listener’s head. Having clearer and more sound sources can actually make it harder to know what to pay attention to.
“That was what I noticed listening to ‘When Doves Cry’ in Atmos,” Rogers said. “It sounded amazing, but it was more difficult to assemble it into a unified whole in that private place I listen to music. I found it distracting.” Her “knee-jerk reaction was ‘do not want,’” she said. “But over time I may learn to like it.”

Perhaps I was not very clear regarding the quality of individual speakers (and the whole system in fact). I was not commenting on the need to have all speakers the same, but rather on the sound quality of individual speakers used in ATMOS. Space and scale is not everything...

 

[Joe Whip]

The Prince Atmos mixes I have heard aren’t very good. The tech can be used well or not. I am friends with some very well known engineers and mixers who love Atmos. You just need to hear it for yourself to decide. I love it, when done right. People made the same arguments and still do about moving from mono to stereo.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Simple, space and scale. The Blue Note mixes of albums like Blue Train are amazing. All of the musicians are laid out in front of you like they are in the room, including in height, even beyond the walls of the room.And this is listening to the compressed DD plus streams on Apple Music. I can’t wait to hear the trueHD Atmos versions hopefully on physical media. Hopefully you will get a chance to hear it in a great set up one day.

it's a mistake to generalize. since our 2 channel references are not equal, not even close. my 2 channel room smokes my very good Home Theater 9.3.6 Trinnov Dolby Atmos room at multichannel with only 2 channels. and i love my multi-channel room. the multichannel cannot compete with the information density of great 2 channel. less loss of musicality makes a huge difference when 2 channel is heroically optimized. the realism of great vinyl or tape is a bridge too far for any multichannel. way more scale and space in my 2 channel. not close.

OTOH i would agree that a more typical 2 channel set-up might be surpassed by great Dolby multi-channel. horses for courses. hard to say where the tipping point would be, but at the top of the mountain, 2 channel rules for music only.

i'm not negative in any way about the potential of Dolby Atmos; i see it as delivering the goods. and agree that muti-channel is far easier and cheaper to execute than ultimate 2 channel. but let's not try to equate it to the very best 2 channel has to offer. it's not that. but Dolby Atmos fully succeeds on it's own merits.

 

[Joe Whip]

I have heard some great very expensive 2 channel systems, we will just have to agree to disagree,

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have heard some great very expensive 2 channel systems, we will just have to agree to disagree,

expensive, and a room fully executed for optimal sound staging, are different things. and there are many degrees of both. and then having the analog sources to take full advantage of the gear and room is another thing yet.