Introduction of my new Antipodes K50 Music Server

Lxgreen

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Jul 28, 2020
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Thank you for your answer.
Yes I agree, Vinnie Rossi must also be included in the top group. I also had a LIO prior to my L2i integrated amp.
I also have an Antipodes S40 as roon server with storage so I wonder if you would find eventually when you can use the K50 as both server/player to a dac you will get the best sound. Shall be interesting to read about your progress later on.
I also ordered the Audiosensibility signature Ethernet cable to replace an inexpensive tera grand cat 7. Had tried an audioquest forest which was about the same as a Wireworld cat 7. I have Cisco switch from router (blue jeans Ethernet)and Viablu Ethernet cable from switch to EtherRegen. The Audiosensibility goes from B side EtherRegen to K50. The Audiosensibility is somewhat better immediately upon installing, particularly in the higher mid range. Overall a more solid presentation and easy to listen to. Bass lines did not seem to have much improvement. So a clear improvement for a lot more money. Not sure if I’ll see further improvement over time but don’t expect much more. I’ll probably keep but despite the quick shipping I was disappointed the cable came in a plastic bag stuffed into a USPS quick ship envelope with only one piece of cardboard protecting one side of envelop. I could imagine easily seeing a smashed end terminal with this kind of shipping. Got a fair price with Spring 13% sale along with a strong us to Canadian dollar. $369 US dollars for 1.5 meters. For that kind of money I would have liked some kind of protective case for shipping
 

shuang

New Member
May 30, 2021
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audiosensibility.com
I also ordered the Audiosensibility signature Ethernet cable to replace an inexpensive tera grand cat 7. Had tried an audioquest forest which was about the same as a Wireworld cat 7. I have Cisco switch from router (blue jeans Ethernet)and Viablu Ethernet cable from switch to EtherRegen. The Audiosensibility goes from B side EtherRegen to K50. The Audiosensibility is somewhat better immediately upon installing, particularly in the higher mid range. Overall a more solid presentation and easy to listen to. Bass lines did not seem to have much improvement. So a clear improvement for a lot more money. Not sure if I’ll see further improvement over time but don’t expect much more. I’ll probably keep but despite the quick shipping I was disappointed the cable came in a plastic bag stuffed into a USPS quick ship envelope with only one piece of cardboard protecting one side of envelop. I could imagine easily seeing a smashed end terminal with this kind of shipping. Got a fair price with Spring 13% sale along with a strong us to Canadian dollar. $369 US dollars for 1.5 meters. For that kind of money I would have liked some kind of protective case for shipping
Larry:

My apologies for the issues you had with the packaging. I should have reinforced the mailer with hard cardboard on both sides.

The Signature Ethernet cable is equipped with premium Telegartner all-metal RJ45 connectors which are well known for the durability.

I subscribe to The Three R’s of Recycling (Reduce, Reuse, Recycling). So the packaging for the cables and shipping are indeed minimalist as you mentioned above.

Regards

Steve
 

sale

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Dec 16, 2014
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I have been pleased with the Audio Sensibility Signature Signature Ethernet cable to the extent I ordered another today in 1 meter. I have been using the 1.5 m one from a PF Buffalo switch to the RJ45 K50 port. I have ordered the 1 meter to evaluate out from the K50 ethernet Direct Streaming port to my Lumin X1. i experimented a bit today with bringing an EtherREGEN into the chain from the PF Buffalo to the ER to the K50 to Vinnie Rossi DAC 2.0. Later on, I will experiment putting the ER before the Lumin and after K50 Direct Streamng port as well as once again test fiber optic to the Lumin X1 from the PF Buffalo. I tried both of the Sablons on the ER as well as one Salon and the current Audio Sensibility to the K50. Interestingly, I preferred the presentation of the AS cable to the K50 without the ER involved, but am also curious how 2 of the AS cables will sound with the ER.

The K50 is still early on settling in, and have noticed more refined detail as it does. The addition of the AS cable steered the presentation immediately more in that direction, but expect there will be evolving changes with the K50 and the AS cables as they accumulate more time on them.
Why would you involve ER when Antipodes is against any filters in the signal path?
 

sale

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2014
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Toronto
I received my K50 last week. I have not yet put my EtherREGEN back in the chain. I have had to make changes in equipment positions to accomodate bringing some pieces back into play to test with the K50. I have a couple Sablon 1 meter length 2020 ethernet cables and have enjoyed them a great deal. Now, however, 1 meter Sablon is not long enough to the K50 from PF Buffalo switch. For the present I am using a Ghent Belden 1303E CAT6A Ethernet(JSSG360) for the length to the K50. I have had that cable for a bit and will repurpose it as I look to do some network changes upstream.

I mused about ordering another Sablon, but thought I would take the opportunity to test a new Signature cable from Audio Sensibility, https://audiosensibility.com/blog/p...able-***-New-***/p/322022400/category=4059160. I have several silver AS Signature cables that I have really liked--ac power cords, a dc power cord, and a pair of XLR's. I found them to provide more musical info, but not at all sharp, etched, or in your face but instead very smooth. I ordered the AS Signature ethernet cable today. I would expect I am probably a week to 10 days from having the cable. Pricing with the Spring 13% discount (code on the site) and conversion from Canadian to US dollars make it a bit less expensive than the Sablon. It is a stock listed cable, so the 30-day money back guarantee policy is there, should I wish. However, I almost never return purchased items. Triode Wire Labs is another company with a 30-day return policy. I have not yet listened to TWL's Freedom ethernet cable, but do have TWL power cords, a USB Dongle, and some of TWL XLR cables. I have been pleased with TWL, and the Freedom is less expensive.

I find all 3 companies to be competitive and offer fine products. I also find the owners, Mark with Sablon, Steve with Audio Sensibility, and Pete with Triode Wire Labs excellent for communicating back and fast on processing orders.
MSB strongly advises users of their streaming DACs to use CAT6 from the router to the switch and use CAT7 from the switch to their streaming DAC. This is what they say "We recommend, DO NOT use CAT 7 going to the input of the GigafoilV4, and DO USE CAT7 between the GigafoilV4 and the MSB Render input. This is more about the CAT 7 being a ground and where you want, and do not want that ground, rather than CAT 7 having ultra high bandwidth which we don’t need for our purposes. Again, please adhere to the use of CAT 6 and CAT 7 just described. (note: people seem to want to use a CAT 7 going into the Gigafoil, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT use an audiophile ethernet cable into the Gigafoil. Use a plain Jane CAT 6 going in !) listen for yourself and compare if you are tempted to use an audiophile ethernet cable into the Gigafoil, you have been warned!!!). We have had a nice improvement using the Audioquest ethernet cables which are CAT7. I also have good reports about the Wireworld cables including the Platinum 7."
 

sale

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2014
54
2
113
Toronto
I also ordered the Audiosensibility signature Ethernet cable to replace an inexpensive tera grand cat 7. Had tried an audioquest forest which was about the same as a Wireworld cat 7. I have Cisco switch from router (blue jeans Ethernet)and Viablu Ethernet cable from switch to EtherRegen. The Audiosensibility goes from B side EtherRegen to K50. The Audiosensibility is somewhat better immediately upon installing, particularly in the higher mid range. Overall a more solid presentation and easy to listen to. Bass lines did not seem to have much improvement. So a clear improvement for a lot more money. Not sure if I’ll see further improvement over time but don’t expect much more. I’ll probably keep but despite the quick shipping I was disappointed the cable came in a plastic bag stuffed into a USPS quick ship envelope with only one piece of cardboard protecting one side of envelop. I could imagine easily seeing a smashed end terminal with this kind of shipping. Got a fair price with Spring 13% sale along with a strong us to Canadian dollar. $369 US dollars for 1.5 meters. For that kind of money I would have liked some kind of protective case for shipping
Do you know what is the bandwidth of AS Ethernet cable?
 

Lxgreen

Member
Jul 28, 2020
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Westlake Village, CA, USA
I have no idea
 

kennyb123

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Nov 30, 2012
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Why would you involve ER when Antipodes is against any filters in the signal path?
I don’t believe it’s correct to classify the ER as a filter.
 
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sale

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Dec 16, 2014
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I don’t believe it’s correct to classify the ER as a filter.
Any manipulation of a digital data stream is a digital filter. If you have Antipodes you do not need ER because Antipodes is also a re-generator among other things. People who cannot afford Antipodes buy ER (which is even more expensive in comparison when considering features vs price The fact that Audio Science Review debunked ER is also a thing to consider). To have both ER and Antipodes in the signal path is like having Toyota Tercel tied to BMW and drive it as a duo.
 

abeidrov

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Any manipulation of a digital data stream is a digital filter. If you have Antipodes you do not need ER because Antipodes is also a re-generator among other things. People who cannot afford Antipodes buy ER (which is even more expensive in comparison when considering features vs price The fact that Audio Science Review debunked ER is also a thing to consider). To have both ER and Antipodes in the signal path is like having Toyota Tercel tied to BMW and drive it as a duo.
And who made you a great authority in computer audio? Have you done a comparison between ER + Antipodes and Antipodes without ER?
BTW, making referrals to Audio Science Review does not add you any credibility here:(
 

2glory

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Nov 24, 2020
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I have the CXEC. Would the Innuos Zenith III and Innuos Phoenix USB be an upgrade ?

Power cables for Antipodes. Hemingway Beta, give it a go and how much better they are than all the rest of the field. The Alpa will outrun most of the other brands.
 

sale

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Dec 16, 2014
54
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113
Toronto
And who made you a great authority in computer audio? Have you done a comparison between ER + Antipodes and Antipodes without ER?
BTW, making referrals to Audio Science Review does not add you any credibility here:(
What's wrong with Audio Science Review?
What's wrong with Antipodes design guidelines?
Is it like in that wide-spread delusion that goes like this: "I am right, I am the God, and you all are wrong"? Is that it?
 

sale

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2014
54
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Toronto
And who made you a great authority in computer audio? Have you done a comparison between ER + Antipodes and Antipodes without ER?
BTW, making referrals to Audio Science Review does not add you any credibility here:(
Hi God,

here are some hints and design guidelines from Antipodes. I try to make it as simple as possible, but as Einstein said, “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.”

The concept of jitter misleads people into thinking that all you need in a digital signal is the correct bits (which is relatively trivial to transmit) with great timing (low jitter), and so all you need is a great clock. This simplistic view is highly misleading. At least three things matter - the clock, noise and bandwidth. In the image of a perfect square wave, the horizontal axis is time and the vertical axis is voltage. We will assume the clock is perfect – ie. the vertical signal lines occur at perfectly spaced intervals (the bit rate). When the signal is representing a binary 0, it is at 0v. When the signal is representing a binary 1, it is at 1v. And we will assume that the receiver of this signal decides that the transition between a 0 and a 1 has occurred when the signal rises through the 0.5v level, and that a 1 has transitioned to a 0 when the signal falls through the 0.5v level. Now imagine that there is noise added to the signal. If the frequency of the noise is below the bitrate then this perfect square wave swims on top of a longer and smoother wave. The interesting point is that the timing between the data transitions (where those vertical lines pass through 0.5v) is unchanged. So no problem, yet. If the frequency of the noise is above the bitrate then the horizontal lines get fuzzy. And if we combine the low frequency noise with the high frequency noise the effect is combined. Again, the interesting point to note is that the timing between the data transitions (where those vertical lines pass through 0.5v) is unchanged provided the noise is not extremely high. So, again, no problem. Noise, on its own (as long as the deviations caused are materially below 0.5v) is not a problem. The reason it is not a problem is those vertical lines, because noise does not change the space between them.
Now imagine there is no noise. Zero noise is impossible, but something else that is impossible is the vertical line on the square wave, since it requires infinite bandwidth. The vertical lines imply the signal can achieve 0v and 1v in more or less the same instant. Whatever tools we have to transmit a signal, the demands of high bit-rate signals are way beyond what the available tools can deliver. Think about how your analog cables can mess with sound up to around 20kHz, and then think about the enormously wider frequency range required of a digital cable (and, optical cables just have a different set of problems, mainly related to reflections). The higher the bit rate the harder it gets. When we allow for constrained bandwidth, instead of transitions being instantaneous, the signal goes up a slope when transitioning from 0v to 1v, and down a slope when transitioning from 1v to 0v. If the bandwidth was the same as the bitrate then the signal would be a sine wave. To reasonably square out the signal you need to add several harmonics of the bitrate (say 7 or more) above the bitrate, and that is a lot of bandwidth - even more for higher bit rate signals. By adding harmonics, the sine wave begins to square out. Interestingly, in both of these constrained-bandwidth examples, the transitions through 0.5v are still perfectly spaced – even with the sine wave. So still no problem.
But as I mentioned, a higher bitrate signal (if you think high bitrate files must always sound better) requires even more bandwidth to square out the wave, and so in a system that has a finite limit on bandwidth, a lower bitrate signal will be more accurately represented than a high bitrate signal. On top of that, if you ask anything in a music server to work faster, it will work with less precision and this is a key trade-off to be aware of when you assume higher bit rates must be better, just because the numbers are bigger. These examples only allow us to conclude that there is no problem if we can achieve zero noise or infinite bandwidth. But each of those goals is unattainable, and the problem becomes apparent when there is both noise and constrained bandwidth. So what happens if we add a low frequency noise component to a frequency-constrained digital audio signal? All of sudden, the 0.5v points are shifted right or left by the addition of the low frequency noise that lifts or drops the signal between bits. Shifting the slopes up or down shifts the 0.5v points left or right. The greater the amplitude of the noise, and the greater the bandwidth constraint, the greater is the effect on timing (jitter).

Now if we add high frequency noise to a frequency-constrained signal you can see that the transition timing at precisely 0.5v is now hard to discern for any digital receiver. If the signal is vertical at the transition then noise does not affect it. But as soon as the transition is not vertical then noise changes the transition point. It is the combination of constrained bandwidth and noise that inevitably creates jitter (variation in data transition timing), regardless of how great the clock is.
 

Magnuska

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Nov 21, 2020
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When I had the Antipodes EX I sent an email to Antipodes, asking if they thought a USB reclocker would be of benefit. And replied no it would not. Although as I am courious and had found earlier that every USB player port had a positive effect I purchased a Ideon 3R the smallest and SQ was greatly improved. Now I have the Antipodes S40 with etherregen. Again the ER makes the Antipodes even better sounding, So the best is try for yourself.
 
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speakerlust

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Mar 26, 2011
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Lxgreen,

It appears to me as well that midrange area is where I am currently noticing the changes the most with the Audio Sensibility ethernet cable. I received the second one just before the weekend and have had it mostly playing to the LUMIN X1 over the weekend without output to the speakers while doing other things. I have the X1 playing actively now.

While I have never had damage to any of my Audio Sensibility purchases in shipping to me, I agree the level of shipping protection could and should be improved. I suspect that will happen, especially with your input here on that.
 
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speakerlust

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Mar 26, 2011
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Why would you involve ER when Antipodes is against any filters in the signal path?
I was curious what, if any, audible differences I might perceive with the ER and the K50. I already owned an ER. I previously used it in chain immediately before the LUMIN X1 and went from B side with Cat 6 to A side with fiber optic output to the X1. This was prior to me getting the K50 and the PF Buffalo and the Sablon ethernet cables--all purchased at different times. I most probably will evaluate fiber optic again both directly from PF Buffalo switch and separately with the ER later on as well as trialing the ER after the K50.

I have read Antipodes Audio Technology summary on design philosophy regarding filtering noise and effects on bandwith. The summary speaks to the computer generated noise within Antipodes units. It is not clear to me though that Mark Jenkins and Antipodes Audio have completely abandoned all filtering. The summary seems to indicate that they have rather moved on a quest to evaluate their prior decisions and implementations regarding noise generation and abatement and bandwidth enhancement. My impression of their processes involved a combination of measuring and listening.

It is also not clear to me how Antipodes is "cleaning" the Direct Stream ethernet output. The R1i Reclocker Board is involved with the other digital outputs, but does not mention ethernet and is not included with the K40, which is a ethernet optimized server only. I do not look at the ER as a filter, but if we use your definition that any manipulation of a digital data stream is a digital filter, then the Direct Stream output must be a filter. Interestingly, I do perceive a difference listening to the Direct Stream output to the X1 vs. the PF Buffalo output to the X1 using the same new Audio Sensibility cable. While still early on with this cable and the K50, my current impressions involve more clarity from the PF Buffalo. I want to involve more time and various artists to compare more.

I also intend to later listen with the ER after the K50 vs after the PF Buffalo going into the X1. I believe my first and very short test of the ER with the Sablon cables was flawed on my part, and I apologize to you all here as well to Sablon and Uptone re: the ER. My ER had been out of use for some time, and I did not allow the unit to be powered and on settle in for the clock and other electronics within it ahead of that first evaluation. I need to be far more patient on this and intend to try to rectify this oversight as I move forward. Again, I want to evaluate the ER before and after the K50 and with my Sablon cables, the AS cables, combo of both, and how fiber optic may play.

I may come to conclusion that ER is not a benefit for me with the K50 and my use of the PF Buffalo, but it was worthwhile to me in earlier configuration, and there are a number of users, including Antipodes owners, who like the listening results they are getting with the ER. I am far from an expert nor purport to have Golden Hearing, especially at my age.

I am also not interested in unproductive objectivist vs subjectivist discussions that derail into agressive and personal confrontations. I like the approach that Antipodes has appeared to me to take of measuring and listening. I think there is much merit in blending both.
 

kennyb123

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Nov 30, 2012
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Kirkland, WA
Again, I want to evaluate the ER before and after the K50 and with my Sablon cables, the AS cables, combo of both, and how fiber optic may play.

I may come to conclusion that ER is not a benefit for me with the K50 and my use of the PF Buffalo, but it was worthwhile to me in earlier configuration, and there are a number of users, including Antipodes owners, who like the listening results they are getting with the ER. I am far from an expert nor purport to have Golden Hearing, especially at my age.

I’d imagine having an ER before an Antipodes server can be beneficial, but I haven’t confirmed this myself as my ER was already in place before my K30 landed. I don’t see it as being “in the signal path” when used in front of my K30. I also don’t consider the ER to be a filter. It’s just a network switch that has a far better clock in it than you’ll find in any consumer network switch. In addition it can keep leakage current from being passed across its moat.

Having said all that, I probably wouldn’t consider using an ER after a K30 or K50. That would place it in the signal path and I think Antipodes might have that signal as clean as can be. But one can never be sure of such things so always best to listen for oneself.

In my case the ER additionally gave me the ability to run a span of fiber to provide some further isolation. With my former server, an Innuos Zenith, running a span of fiber with an opticalModule upstream and an ER downstream was absolutely worthwhile. I can’t imagine it not being the case with my K30 now as well. The ER convinced me that a good network switch should be included amongst the steps we must take to establish a good foundation for our system, such as room treatment, resonance control, and a power conditioner. Each lessens the harm the real world does to our systems.

I’ve probably mentioned this before but it’s something I encourage everyone to try. Play a song and listen to what happens when you disconnect the Ethernet cable. You will hear degradation even though the music is already stored in a buffer on your server.
 
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