GT Audio Works Planar/Ribbon Speakers and Sound Insight Open Baffle Sub Woofers

Bodhi

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2014
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280
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Melbourne, Australia
#41
Jeez I used to actually believe Breuninger's reviews were unbiased and honest, and took his recommendations on face value. I can't believe how gullible I was! It's like those syndicated US tv shows you believe are real...until you later find out they have 'pre-arranged outcomes' (read: BS). This has completely changed my view of AV Showrooms. I mean you can't believe a word which comes out of those reviewers mouths when they're being paid to give a favorable review. Dito for Stereophile and The Absolute Sound (and probably most other audio rags). All I know is, If I ever run an audio website, my reviews will not be 'pay to play' & will be the antithesis of AV Showrooms.
 
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May 30, 2010
15,505
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Portugal
#42
Jeez I used to actually believe Breuninger's reviews were unbiased and honest, and took his recommendations on face value. I can't believe how gullible I was! It's like those syndicated US tv shows you believe are real...until you later find out they have 'pre-arranged outcomes' (read: BS). This has completely changed my view of AV Showrooms. I mean you can't believe a word which comes out of those reviewers mouths when they're being paid to give a favorable review. Dito for Stereophile and The Absolute Sound (and probably most other audio rags). All I know is, If I ever run an audio website, my reviews will not be 'pay to play' & will be the antithesis of AV Showrooms.
Although the situation of reviews is not black and white, but IMHO we have lots of gray in it, it is why I always considered that reviews, magazines, shows and highend forums are mostly for information and entertainment. It is reader responsibility to filter and evaluate the content.

High-end audio is an intrinsically biased affair. If you want to suppress the bias you must do as F. Toole did a statistical analysis of sound quality with random picked listeners. And then you find that in stereo the conditions for suppressing the listener bias kill the high-end o_O, that is just an expression of particular cultivated preferences and biases in audio. All IMHO, surely YMMV.

Sometimes when people loose their viginity on such affairs and change their views they renegate the high-end - I hope that this discovery does not affect your enjoyment of the hobby!
 
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Bodhi

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2014
913
280
63
Melbourne, Australia
#43
Although the situation of reviews is not black and white, but IMHO we have lots of gray in it, it is why I always considered that reviews, magazines, shows and highend forums are mostly for information and entertainment. It is reader responsibility to filter and evaluate the content.
Frustrating, but true. Dito for politics.
Sometimes when people loose their viginity on such affairs and change their views they renegate the high-end - I hope that this discovery does not affect your enjoyment of the hobby!
I lost my audiophile cherry years ago! :D But I do despair of the return of the proverbial soap box salesman :eek:
 
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GT Audio Works

Industry Expert
Feb 12, 2015
113
59
28
59
Stockholm NJ
www.gtaudioworks.com
#44
Jeez I used to actually believe Breuninger's reviews were unbiased and honest, and took his recommendations on face value. I can't believe how gullible I was! It's like those syndicated US tv shows you believe are real...until you later find out they have 'pre-arranged outcomes' (read: BS). This has completely changed my view of AV Showrooms. I mean you can't believe a word which comes out of those 'reviewers' mouths when they're being paid to give a favorable review. Dito for Stereophile and The Absolute Sound (and probably most other audio rags). All I know is, If I ever run an audio website, my reviews will not be 'pay to play' & will be the antithesis of AV Showrooms!
Bodhi...No one should take anyone's recommendation on face value, use it as a guide to explore the product further, but never buy anything sight unseen and unheard on someone's recommendation.
I once had a prospective customer wanting to buy a pair of my speakers unheard, I told him please come here first..take the flight..I will reimburse you the airfare if you buy. The last thing I want is to have someone get them home and decide they are not what they were looking for. That does me more harm to my reputation than the profit I would have made.
Regarding AV showrroms and others....
Sorry to tell you there is no Santa Claus... but dont despair, it's not as bad as you think.
I never said Peter B's reviews were biased, and he definitely does not print out awards before the show as inferred by Marty in a previous post, he is simply running a business and needs to charge a fee for his services.
No different than how other audio publications work. The only difference is other publications defer their benefit to you in a way that seems less like a simple purchase you make every day...maybe for a cup of coffee, you give them the $$, they give you the product.
With Peter it's up front.
With the big mags it's more clandestine.


Regarding the big mags like Stereophile, they will charge you about $10k a month for a half page color ad...they give you a volume discount for a yearly rate...think about that and how it figures into the product cost when you see full page inside cover ads from your favorite manufacturers.
Speaking of manufacturers costs....
Just for perspective, a shoe box room at Axpona on the 14th floor cost me $4K for the weekend. These big boys in these salon rooms with 1000sq ft or better must pay crazy rates, and dont forget all the transportation costs of getting huge high end expensive systems across the country or across the ocean.
After all this outlay in advertising costs, how do you think reviewers will treat their clients ? Do you think they will ignore them at shows ? Do you think they will rip them a new one in print ?
Personally I think AV showrooms business model is a great idea., their fees are reasonable for what you get.
Consider a small digital ad in any of the online publications ...you know the ones you see pop up on the page. One of these small ads can run as much as what AV charges, what is the chance that tiny ad will be seen by the audiophile community ? Look at AV's views on youtube..they give you lots of exposure..I have gotten feedback from my customers saying they saw my videos.
In a perfect world J. Gordon Holts vision would have thrived and we would all be reading those little advertizing free magazines like Stereophile used to be back in the day.
High end audio has morphed into a huge creature which I believe cannot sustain itself, in which case when that meteor pulverizes the planet and puts them into extinction, a little furry mammal like myself may be able to come out from underground and survive on what's left.
 

Bodhi

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2014
913
280
63
Melbourne, Australia
#45
Greg, I also mourn the loss of J. Gordon Holt who was a pillar of integrity when Stereophile's Class A rating actually meant something. I take your other points on board also. To clarify, although I foolishly believed Breuninger gave positive reviews based on merit, rather than credit cards, I would never ever buy a new pair of speakers based on reviews alone. And nor should any other audiophile if they've got half a brain. Personally I couldn't hold my head up taking money for reviews. Apparently others have no problem with it. J. Gordon Holt must be turning in his grave......
 
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PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
5,632
496
83
North Shore of Boston
#46
Although the situation of reviews is not black and white, but IMHO we have lots of gray in it, it is why I always considered that reviews, magazines, shows and highend forums are mostly for information and entertainment. It is reader responsibility to filter and evaluate the content.
I agree Fransisco, but would add that I have actually learned a few things, particularly about vinyl set up, on forums. I have also made some good friends from introductions on WBF. Forums, shows, reviews, magazines less so, can be fun. Without any of those, I would never even know about a product like the AF Zero.

Real learning comes from doing and from meeting those who know more than I do.
 

GT Audio Works

Industry Expert
Feb 12, 2015
113
59
28
59
Stockholm NJ
www.gtaudioworks.com
#47
Greg, I also mourn the loss of J. Gordon Holt who was a pillar of integrity when Stereophile's Class A rating actually meant something. I take your other points on board also. To clarify, although I foolishly believed Breuninger gave positive reviews based on merit, rather than credit cards, I would never ever buy a new pair of speakers based on reviews alone. And nor should any other audiophile if they're got half a brain. Personally I couldn't hold my head up taking money for reviews. Apparently others have no problem with it. J. Gordon Holt must be turning in his grave......
It's a slippery slope, if you didn't take money you would be quite handicapped in your effectiveness to be seen get the word out...which is one's intent to begin with.
That being said, we are in the era of communication and with the benefit of this technology there is a rising under culture of audio reviewers out there who do not take money and give you their honest opinions.
To name a few...
Todd Anderson of AV Nirvana and Eric Franklin Shook of Part time Audiophile.
2 guys who will walk up to you and actually talk to you like a human..people who put obvious time and effort into their show reports.
Not trying to self promote myself because they both loved my room, but these guys act like I wished all reviewers acted when they came in my room. Introduce yourself shake your hand and look you in the eye and talk to you, asking pertinent questions....WOW ! WHAT A CONCEPT !!
Others I like...Myles Astor...not looking for $$ and posts great pics and info, his show report pics are quite extensive.
And dare I say it...since I am a client of AV showrooms...Kemper Holt.
Who again talks to you asks questions and writes informatively.
Kemper who usually loves our room came in and quickly proclaimed something was wrong, image specificity was for shit, bloated and seemingly out of phase. he stood up and said something...BRAVO !!!
Guess what ? He was right..we played the same track on Vinyl and CD one was spot on the other very diffuse.
He had to move on, but unlike a lot of reviewers he actually came back by which time we found the issue and he proclaimed the system sounding much better.....THANKS KEMPER !!
Though, I can't blame any reviewer for not spending time in any room at Axpona or even for missing rooms..I Think there was over 180 rooms this year !!
 
Likes: Al M.

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
5,632
496
83
North Shore of Boston
#49
The audio forums also seem to play a role in advertising with manufacturers introducing and discussing their products. And this practice is free of charge. The forums spread new Wilson speaker videos, AF Zero videos, Munich audio show pictures. Isolation platforms and ultra sonic record cleaners get lots of free exposure through dedicated threads. You are right that it is an ear of communication. We all benefit from this.
 

Bodhi

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2014
913
280
63
Melbourne, Australia
#50
Greg, If I ever run an audio forum one day and review your speakers, don't bother offering me money or spivs...I wont take it. What you'll get is an honest, thorough and un-sponored review BS-free. Tell me money doesn't corrupt, Ya'right.
 

marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
1,351
247
63
Far Hills, NJ
#51
You are completely ignorant of the fact that GT Audioworks speaker system has received rave reviews from many other reviewers. More importantly our sales and customers testimonials as to the success of the speakers speak for themselves. In the end the consumer decides what he or she will buy- not what some reviewer thinks of the speakers. I am attaching the link to our Facebook page to document the above.
https://www.facebook.com/sounderinsight/

Also, I am sure you are aware that many high end brands that pay Stereophile and The Absolute Sound for advertising seem to miraculously get good reviews.
I have no problem comparing any speaker at any price to our least expensive system.
We will be at Capital Audiofest in November- so I suggest you hear our system before you post disparaging remarks about our speakers without you having heard them.
Feel free to bring any speakers to Sound Insight to compare them to the GT speaker system.
You may wish to read my remarks more carefully. I certainly have not disparaged your speakers in any way. Please don't misquote me. i respect that you feel passionately about your speakers but I have never commented one way or the other on their performance
 

Bodhi

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2014
913
280
63
Melbourne, Australia
#52
You may wish to read my remarks more carefully. I certainly have not disparaged your speakers in any way. Please don't misquote me. i respect that you feel passionately about your speakers but I have never commented one way or the other on their performance
Thanks for your earlier input Marty. Apparently not everyone was aware those awards were based on "pay to play" recommendations. I mean, I was aware that the big glossy reviews in mags are paid reviews, but I was taken aback when I found out Peter Breuninger's nice little walk up videos at shows (kind of like Uncle Pat coming over for scones and jam) were actually commercial transactions, lol! Maybe Breuninger should go into comedy like Fremer? :D
 
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marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
1,351
247
63
Far Hills, NJ
#53
Open your eyes....The whole world is pay to play my friend.
Do you think the big print mags are any better ?? I can assure you they are not.
Since I can't drop $90K on a half page ad in "The Pile" or one of the other rags what's a guy to do ?
Been doing shows for 7 years and the big mags ignore me like the plague.
When you read a glowing review in one of these publications do you take it to heart ?
Not me buddy...I may check out said gear for myself, but no way would I ever buy anything unseen and unheard on anybody's word.
All these reviews or certificates are for is to inform a customer of the existence of a particular company or product.
Most times a reviewers has very particular tastes..some will not enter your room unless you have a turntable...others unless its some high efficiency single cone driven by a flea watt amp...REALLY ??
How is this audio journalism and not playing to their personal tastes ?

Peter B. of AV has hit on a great idea...he and Terry trek all over the world and record quality videos of all kinds of systems for all to see and hear, these are systems you may not hear otherwise. Take a look at the number of videos on his site..its quite substantial. Should he do all this for nothing ?
You infer you can do a better job for the same money...So its OK for you to get paid ?
Who's to say a gold foil merit badge from the likes of you is not doing a disservice to my business ?
You say you can do better.....Are you looking for a job ?
Get me some positive exposure that gets me more sales and I will cut you in for a percentage of each sale.

Tell you what Marty....since you live in the area, why not take a ride over to my dealer on Long Island.
I'll pick you up if you like, then you can hear for yourself.
Don't forget to bring my award.

Greg
GTAW
Greg,
I understand your passion for your speakers and as I have said, I am in no position to comment on their performance since I have not heard the product. But while we have a disagreement over marketing, one thing is clear. You have wrongly assumed that I somehow suggested I can do better than AVS to popularize your product. To begin, I would never aspire to that work, whether paid or unpaid. Second, did you really think the gold foil badge was a serious remark? Perhaps you don't appreciate sarcasm. I admit that considering my comments could be taken as a swipe at your business, I apologize. In fact, I want every high end manufacturer to succeed and wish you no ill-will although I did mock the mechanism by which AVS operates. What I cannot know is whether they benefit traffic and interest for your product. If so, that's great. I wish you continued success. Finally, only fool would think that anything I would say about any audio product could or should be used to increase sales so please don't make erroneous assumptions about my intentions when I comment unfavorably about using the marketing methods you have chosen. As I have said, I wish you success, Perhaps one day I will get to hear the speakers in a good setting. But I do need some time to print my gold foil certificates first.
Marty
 
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Bodhi

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2014
913
280
63
Melbourne, Australia
#54
As I have said, I wish you success, Perhaps one day I will get to hear the speakers in a good setting. But I do need some time to print my gold foil certificates first.
Marty
You could use this is a template :D

765BED55-B4AB-4D38-9F21-84077B003AFF.jpeg
 
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GT Audio Works

Industry Expert
Feb 12, 2015
113
59
28
59
Stockholm NJ
www.gtaudioworks.com
#55
Thanks for your earlier input Marty. Apparently not everyone was aware those awards were based on "pay to play" recommendations. I mean, I was aware that the big glossy reviews in mags are paid reviews, but I was taken aback when I found out Peter Breuninger's nice little walk up videos at shows (kind of like Uncle Pat coming over for scones and jam) were actually commercial transactions, lol! Maybe Breuninger should go into comedy like Fremer? :D
No...let me clarify...Those AV walk up videos are not pre scripted or paid for.
Here are a couple of the walk ups Peter did at no charge

The ones you see like this one are paid for
Obviously the latter are more scripted.
There is a difference...Peter does a lot of free videos.
He simply offers his services at a later date.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
6,674
1,067
113
Beverly Hills, CA
#56
But isn’t Peter’s business model similar to that of photographers at Disneyland? They take a photo of you, show you how nice it is, and then offer to sell it to you?
 

GT Audio Works

Industry Expert
Feb 12, 2015
113
59
28
59
Stockholm NJ
www.gtaudioworks.com
#57
Greg,
I understand your passion for your speakers and as I have said, I am in no position to comment on their performance since I have not heard the product. But while we have a disagreement over marketing, one thing is clear. You have wrongly assumed that I somehow suggested I can do better than AVS to popularize your product. To begin, I would never aspire to that work, whether paid or unpaid. Second, did you really think the gold foil badge was a serious remark? Perhaps you don't appreciate sarcasm. I admit that considering my comments could be taken a swipe at your business, I apologize. In fact, I want every high end manufacturer to succeed and wish you no ill-will although I did mock the mechanism by which AVS operates. What I cannot know is whether they benefit traffic and interest for your product. If so, that's great. I wish you continued success. Finally, only fool would think that anything I would say about any audio product could or should be used to increase sales so please don't make erroneous assumptions about my intentions when I comment unfavorably about using the marketing methods you have chosen. As I have said, I wish you success, Perhaps one day I will get to hear the speakers in a good setting. But I do need some time to print my gold foil certificates first.
Marty
No problem buddy, no harm meant or taken....You only said what a lot of people suspect or already know.
I just wanted to set the record straight on what AV does for the audiophile community.

My invite stands...My dealer is about a 2 hr ride form your location.
I go there about once a month, please come over for a drink and listen to some tunes with us.
My contact info is on my web site.
Its not a walk in dealer...appointment only.
Actually we are planning a GTG open house kinda thing for GT owners and interested parties.
We'll have some time to eat , drink, listen to tunes and BS a bit.
Hope you can make it.
 

GT Audio Works

Industry Expert
Feb 12, 2015
113
59
28
59
Stockholm NJ
www.gtaudioworks.com
#58
But isn’t Peter’s business model similar to that of photographers at Disneyland? They take a photo of you, show you how nice it is, and then offer to sell it to you?
No, at the time he never approached me about money.. he did 2 videos and posted them on his site free of charge.
These videos really helped get the word out on my speakers and I used them to my benefit when people inquired about my product.
He contacted me after the 2nd video after I returned from the show and explained his services and pricing.
At the time, I had to decline his offer due to lack of funds, but he didn't remove my free videos, they are out there till this day. After a few years, when I had a few sales under my belt and a bit of profit, I contacted him and contracted his services.
Like I said , I think his services fill a void within the audio industry.
 
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Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
6,674
1,067
113
Beverly Hills, CA
#59
Although the situation of reviews is not black and white, but IMHO we have lots of gray in it, it is why I always considered that reviews, magazines, shows and highend forums are mostly for information and entertainment. It is reader responsibility to filter and evaluate the content.

High-end audio is an intrinsically biased affair.

. . .
+1 as to your first paragraph.

However I think your last sentence is way over-broad. What does this even mean?

Do you mean the journalism and magazine review aspects of the industry?

I know my tube amplifiers are highly biased, but my turntable and speakers are not biased. :D
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
6,674
1,067
113
Beverly Hills, CA
#60
No, at the time he never approached me about money.. he did 2 videos and posted them on his site free of charge.
These videos really helped get the word out on my speakers and I used them to my benefit when people inquired about my product.
He contacted me after the 2nd video after I returned from the show and explained his services and pricing.
At the time, I had to decline his offer due to lack of funds, but he didn't remove my free videos, they are out there till this day. After a few years, when I had a few sales under my belt and a bit of profit, I contacted him and contracted his services.
Okay. My mistaken assumption — for which I apologize.

Thank you very much for detailing your personal experience with Peter B.
 

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