Fozgometer: 3 Test LP's and 3 Different Results....Now What?

Grooves

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2012
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Pacific Northwest
Being somewhat paranoid re: my TT set up due to many reasons of which I won't go in to (or admit to!). I now own 4 separate test Lp's. Three have a calibrated 1 kHz L, R, Center track for azimuth adjustment. The three are the RTI Denon "Audio Check", Cardas Audio Test Record, and Analogue Productions Test Lp. These have been acquired over the years with the AP disc being acquired recently. The main reason for buying the AP Lp was to settle the score between the results using the other two and my (calibrated) Fozgometer. Depending upon which Lp used I got moderately different results for setting azimuth on my Graham 2 and Phantom II-Supreme. Well, expecting some sort of solution (wishful thinking), now I have three separate results. The Cardas Lp has the least off axis clockwise rotation, with the AP requiring a (+) 1 full turn of the adj. knob clockwise and the Audio Check Lp requiring a (+) 1.5-2.0 clockwise turn of the knob. I decided to accept the Cardas setting for now since it has the least rotation off axis.
I'm not sure how anyone can hope to use these w/o questioning how legitimate they actually are. While I use my ears as the final guide it would have ben nice to have them at least agree more closely and allow me to at least have a starting point. The one big beef I have is the the Phantom while having an indexed gauge for setting azimuth doesn't have a setting showing when the headshell should be at zero degrees. Or at least none that I've found to represent zero/neutral azimuth.
If I could master the mirror method of azimuth adj. I must just use that but I never could use the mirror method.
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Welcome to the world of error envelopes and error averaging. Your settings, even if you believe in them, will only generally apply to the record you make them on, not necessarily the running average of records you actually play.

Better just to pick a position and enjoy your records.
 

kleinbje

Well-Known Member
Dec 20, 2012
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You think it is bad with azimuth? With a unipivot everything is connected. You change the VTF and your VTA is changed, as is your overhang, it never ends, not mention each record is cut differently. Try not to make yourself nuts. There just is NO correct setting for every record.
 

Grooves

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2012
152
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323
Pacific Northwest
It wasn't the set up that was making me nuts, just slightly crazed. When I get a consistently inconsistent issue that's what makes me NUTS! So I resort trying to determine what and why, hence the test records. SO far the current arrangement is sounding very nice so I won't change anything. But what's funny is that every time there's a perceived change in sound or performance I eventually find something that has slipped from alignment or has loosened and I find it when looking into something else.
It's the 1 in 4 or 5 new Lp's that seemingly are pressed poorly and when it happens it's almost always in the right channel that the "pops"/"ticks" really show. But then the next side or next Lp or replacement Lp (though not always!) is fine. Now, if I can ever solve that one I'll become sane again.:p
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Well I'm sure all 3 were cut on 3 different lathes with 3 different cutter heads and 3 different engineers cutting the lacquers with 3 slightly different settings! ;)

A man with 3 watches never really knows the exact time!!
 
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rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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I use a 6mm bullseye bubble level on top of the head shell...weighs less than .5g to get a visual level reference point before fine tuning with the foz. If there isn't much deviation from the visual bubble level test.....and the cart cantilever is to spec, the foz is helpful in addition to the ear. The Foz calibration should be checked. I believe you download the test files from foz, burn a cd and plug the foz into the CD player with the test files playing and you adjust the foz if needed.
 

audioarcher

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2012
1,396
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Seattle area
If records were perfectly flat it would be worth getting super fussy about azimuth. But since that never happens in real life it will never be right all the time. That said it is still desirable to set it so the stylus is not leaning to one side or the other. There should be less average error that way.

If you have three test records then maybe the best approach would be to take the average of all three and go with that. Assuming the Foz device can be trusted to be accurate itself.
 

gwernaffield

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2019
42
7
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55
the fozgometer is a good piece of equipment , how ever you will get different readings, form diffrent test lp, i have got the AP one the clear audio and the hifi news all give different depending on the way they were cut , as fozgometer reccomends the ap one that must be the one to use with this, chasing the perfect Azimuth is a dream , after all you would need a industry that uses the same standards on every thing , and that will never happen , but what will happen,, it is the never ending conquest to get the money out of your pocket , just for the 1db that you cannot hear ,
 

Bob Olhsson

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2019
1
0
66
78
The RIAA curve was created by measuring RCA Victor's New Orthophonic test record. For many years most cutting systems (including even Columbia Records who sold their own) were calibrated to either the 45 or 33 1/3 versions of that record. Later on, the National Association of Broadcasters commissioned RCA Victor to create a version for radio stations and mastering facilities that didn't have the original RCA version used the NAB LP record.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
3,189
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Being somewhat paranoid re: my TT set up due to many reasons of which I won't go in to (or admit to!). I now own 4 separate test Lp's. Three have a calibrated 1 kHz L, R, Center track for azimuth adjustment. The three are the RTI Denon "Audio Check", Cardas Audio Test Record, and Analogue Productions Test Lp. These have been acquired over the years with the AP disc being acquired recently. The main reason for buying the AP Lp was to settle the score between the results using the other two and my (calibrated) Fozgometer. Depending upon which Lp used I got moderately different results for setting azimuth on my Graham 2 and Phantom II-Supreme. Well, expecting some sort of solution (wishful thinking), now I have three separate results. The Cardas Lp has the least off axis clockwise rotation, with the AP requiring a (+) 1 full turn of the adj. knob clockwise and the Audio Check Lp requiring a (+) 1.5-2.0 clockwise turn of the knob. I decided to accept the Cardas setting for now since it has the least rotation off axis.
I'm not sure how anyone can hope to use these w/o questioning how legitimate they actually are. While I use my ears as the final guide it would have ben nice to have them at least agree more closely and allow me to at least have a starting point. The one big beef I have is the the Phantom while having an indexed gauge for setting azimuth doesn't have a setting showing when the headshell should be at zero degrees. Or at least none that I've found to represent zero/neutral azimuth.
If I could master the mirror method of azimuth adj. I must just use that but I never could use the mirror method.

Can you post a pic of your cartridge stylus, my suspicions are its not straight you may want to start there ...
 

slovell1

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2020
3
0
68
71
Chesnee, SC
You think it is bad with azimuth? With a unipivot everything is connected. You change the VTF and your VTA is changed, as is your overhang, it never ends, not mention each record is cut differently. Try not to make yourself nuts. There just is NO correct setting for every record.
I finally, after much gnashing of teeth and cursing, realized exactly that with my Scout. Close does count with horseshoes, hand grenades, and unipivot arms unless you want to spend all of your time fiddling and not listening. o_O
 

gwernaffield

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2019
42
7
88
55
i just used a foz , i down loaded the test files and put them onto a mp3 /mp4 player , and used that to test it , i did use a burned test disk but kept getting different readings, as the mp3 /mp4 had the raw files it worked better , there mut be a fault in the burning software of the cd player , so the foz is now set to one file and then test the azimuth with the test lp ,
 
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Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
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I use a 6mm bullseye bubble level on top of the head shell...weighs less than .5g to get a visual level reference point before fine tuning with the foz. If there isn't much deviation from the visual bubble level test.....and the cart cantilever is to spec, the foz is helpful in addition to the ear. The Foz calibration should be checked. I believe you download the test files from foz, burn a cd and plug the foz into the CD player with the test files playing and you adjust the foz if needed.
Not correct
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
3,189
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The foz is simple it just measures the voltage same as a scope. If it’s calibrated look else where for non linear results. if you say tune by ear do you use more then one test lp lol. I think there are a few variables to consider here. one is vta , vtf , anti skate and first is tracking. I get test lps are cut at different laths but I would think that it’s close enough to feel look else where. even resonance I think.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
3,189
1,387
450
i just used a foz , i down loaded the test files and put them onto a mp3 /mp4 player , and used that to test it , i did use a burned test disk but kept getting different readings, as the mp3 /mp4 had the raw files it worked better , there mut be a fault in the burning software of the cd player , so the foz is now set to one file and then test the azimuth with the test lp ,
I never used a burned disk
 

martin778

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2014
63
10
238
I have the v2 version of the Foz but in no way I'm able to get the L-R azimuth reading closer than L15-R21 between the channels on my VdH Gold Frog. The balance test is good at just a fraciton of a millimeter above 0 on the meter.
Strangely enough, the foz gave the best reading when the whole assembly (Graham Supreme II) was visibly out of balance...the cartridge is mounted using the Graham adjustment tool so I don't expect any issues there.

I still have to try a different test record and the included mains power supply for the Foz but so far I remain sceptical of this gizmo. My first suspicion was the anti-skating as VdH profile styli call for a very, very low a-s of just 0.3-0.5g, which makes the arm pull inwards on a blank record so I tried increasing it up to the point of the stylus staying still on a blank record (not recommended?) but it didn't change the readings on the Foz one bit.
 
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